Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Turning Pages

[EliteGoaltending]

most teams don't have the players to run 3 top lines..... and it's not that we can't be successful with 2 top lines, but we can be more successful running 3 .

It also depends on mix and chemistry.

Do the Pens have the mix to run 3 great lines? Practice for the past 2 seasons shows that no.

This winger group is very dependable on Guentzel and Kessel staying healthy and producing like they normally have been in the playoffs.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I don't recall seeing the DK article that said he turned down a multi year offer from the Pens, but depending on what the offer was, yes that would have been a mistake on his part. Brassard had another year left on his contract, and unless he knew something that others didn't in regards to Brassard's future with the Penguins, the chances Sheahan would have earned this season to perform offensively as he did last season would have been significantly reduced - and with that, a big deduction in whatever contract offers he would have received.

Him betting on himself would have made sense if it looked like he was a lock to be our 3c this season. Anything other than that would have been a mistake.

Article from today, scroll down to the Pens section:

Friday Insider: Tomlin's ties bind him to Butler, Fichtner

Per Shady, 3M may well be what Sheahan will get in FA, 3C's can be notoriously overpaid. Our best bet is to look for a trade for a 3C that's locked up or an RFA after this year ala Faksa, but we'll have to pay dearly in assets to make that happen. So it's whether we want to send out Brass or Maatta and a pick or two for a Faksa, or else just play Sheahan there and plan to pay him in the offseason if he does well.

 

[Riptide]

Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kunitz-Malkin-Rust/Fehr. We won a cup with that.
HBK

Yes we did. HBK also producted 30% more at ES then Malkin's line. Which meant teams either had to defend against HBK, and leave Malkin to 3rd pairing blueliner's and bottom 6 players, or defend against Malkin who could frequently score all on his own, and leave HBK to feast on lesser competition. NYR/WSH covered Malkin and Crosby, while TB/SJ covered Crosby and HBK. It didn't really matter because our "3rd" line was producing like a 1st line.

When you don't have a 3rd line that is that productive and you do not have high end skilled wingers who can make a play with the puck what you end up with is variations from 2010-2015 where teams just double team Crosby and Malkin and our 3rd line isn't good enough to be a threat offensively. But people seem really quick to forget what KCD was like now that we've had a taste of skilled wingers.

 

[PensandCaps]

I think that is the dirty secret nobody wants to admit. This team is better moving Jake off Sid’s line if you want three equal lines of depth.

What is it you'd do?

Pearson-Sid-Simon
Rust-Malkin-Kessel
Guentzel-Brassard-Hornqvist
Sheahan-Cullen-ZAR

 

[Shady Machine]

That middle six had skill - Kessel. And you see, HBK was a lighting in a bottle, it clicked great one year, but the next one not at all.

So what are you and others suggesting? If it's that we need another "primary" winger, that's fine, but pretty unrealistic.

Otherwise, I'm confused what the alternative options are to our current situation. My view is we have enough skill and quality on the wings to be contenders.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yes we did. HBK also producted 30% more at ES then Malkin's line. Which meant teams either had to defend against HBK, and leave Malkin to 3rd pairing blueliner's and bottom 6 players, or defend against Malkin who could frequently score all on his own, and leave HBK to feast on lesser competition. NYR/WSH covered Malkin and Crosby, while TB/SJ covered Crosby and HBK. It didn't really matter because our "3rd" line was producing like a 1st line.

When you don't have a 3rd line that is that productive and you do not have high end skilled wingers who can make a play with the puck what you end up with is variations from 2010-2015 where teams just double team Crosby and Malkin and our 3rd line isn't good enough to be a threat offensively. But people seem really quick to forget what KCD was like now that we've had a taste of skilled wingers.

We also won a Cup with Malkin-Kessel together and you argued that away by saying 2017 wasn't a model you should try to repeat. So if we can't do 2016 or 2017, what on earth do you want?

I have yet to see a suggestion here. You don't want Malkin-Kessel together but you want more skill for Malkin that Simon-Hornqvist. How do we do that?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Kunitz-Malkin-Rust/Fehr. We won a cup with that.
HBK

Right, but...Kessel was on the 3rd line. Sid has sometimes made things work with lesser complementary players, I don't think 2019 Malkin or Brassard can.

Okay killer, show me your lines.

The main point of the post was that moving Guentzel away from Sid is always a bad idea, but I'd try:

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist/Simon
Pearson-Malkin-Simon/Hornqvist
Rust-Brassard-Kessel

Knowing that Sully will never put Rust on LW opposite Kessel:

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist/Simon
Pearson-Malkin-Kessel
Simon/Rust-(Two-way 3C)-Hornqvist

 

[Tom Hanks]

We also won a Cup with Malkin-Kessel together and you argued that away by saying 2017 wasn't a model you should try to repeat. So if we can't do 2016 or 2017, what on earth do you want?

I have yet to see a suggestion here. You don't want Malkin-Kessel together but you want more skill for Malkin that Simon-Hornqvist. How do we do that?

We need or should be trying to get another LW that’s a good fit for say Malkin/Hornqvist.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So what are you and others suggesting? If it's that we need another "primary" winger, that's fine, but pretty unrealistic.

Otherwise, I'm confused what the alternative options are to our current situation. My view is we have enough skill and quality on the wings to be contenders.

Not having Kessel on Crosby's line, mostly.

 

[Peat]

Article from today, scroll down to the Pens section:

Friday Insider: Tomlin's ties bind him to Butler, Fichtner

Per Shady, 3M may well be what Sheahan will get in FA, 3C's can be notoriously overpaid. Our best bet is to look for a trade for a 3C that's locked up or an RFA after this year ala Faksa, but we'll have to pay dearly in assets to make that happen. So it's whether we want to send out Brass or Maatta and a pick or two for a Faksa, or else just play Sheahan there and plan to pay him in the offseason if he does well.

Sheahan was a ufa last year; I don't see how's he gonna get 3m from anyone when 2m was a good enough offer last year when his pace was nearly double.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's not a knock on them as wingers, but when they're the best wingers on the line, you're running into issues. It's no different then Kunitz - Crosby - Dupuis. Either of those guys were fine in the top 6 - especially when you could put them with a center like Crosby or Malkin. But both of them on one line caused issues for us, and was a major source of frustration with this board for years. Rust, Hornqvist and Pearson all fall into the same category. Yes they're (to varying degree's) top 6 wingers (or where at one point), but none of them are ones where you want them being the best winger on the line. Simon is a little different because at least his game is based around his offensive skill. That said, unless you have a great center, he too is likely someone you do not want being the best winger on the line - but I think it's less of an issue with him then it is with the other 3.

And that line still had more skill on the wing with Toffoli then what we're suggesting with some combination of Simon, Pearson, Hornqvist and Rust.

No, because Kunitz was a top six winger with Bill Guerin is that a “skilled winger”?

And Dupuis’ point totals were clearly influenced by Sid.

Also, the main issue was that was our top line and then we had Neal most of those years.

Seems to me a skilled winger core with Jokinen and Neal did jack shit in the playoffs.

 

[Andy99]

Sheahan was a ufa last year; I don't see how's he gonna get 3m from anyone when 2m was a good enough offer last year when his pace was nearly double.

No, he was a RFA last year I believe....

 

[Shady Machine]

Right, but...Kessel was on the 3rd line. Sid has sometimes made things work with lesser complementary players, I don't think 2019 Malkin or Brassard can.



The main point of the post was that moving Guentzel away from Sid is always a bad idea, but I'd try:

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist/Simon
Pearson-Malkin-Simon/Hornqvist
Rust-Brassard-Kessel

Knowing that Sully will never put Rust on LW opposite Kessel:

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist/Simon
Pearson-Malkin-Kessel
Simon/Rust-(Two-way 3C)-Hornqvist

Simon-Hornqvist isn't enough skill for Geno, but Pearson-Hornqvist is? I'm cool with all of those line combos, but none of them are materially better than what's already being done.

 

[Shady Machine]

Sheahan was a ufa last year; I don't see how's he gonna get 3m from anyone when 2m was a good enough offer last year when his pace was nearly double.

He was an RFA.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

So what are you and others suggesting? If it's that we need another "primary" winger, that's fine, but pretty unrealistic.

Otherwise, I'm confused what the alternative options are to our current situation. My view is we have enough skill and quality on the wings to be contenders.

My issue with the forwards group is the same that was before the start of the season.

It was discussed on this board last season too. Lots of good players on paper, but the mix doesn't seem right.
The only undoubtable fit in top 6 is Guentzel-Crosby, imo.
For me three of Hornqvist, Kessel and Rust are each better suited in a 3rd line RW role.

Just to spitball, something that can be tried
Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
x-Malkin-Simon
Pearson-x-Kessel
x-Cullen-Rust

Trade Brassard+ for a RW or LW for Geno (ironically Hagelin could fit on the left, but Malkin hasn't been allowed to play with a skilled winger like Simon until very recently, if Phil isn't on his line).
If there no deal for a 3C, slide Sheahan there.
Maybe in the playoffs Sid will be ok with idea of Horny on his line again.

 

[Shady Machine]

Not having Kessel on Crosby's line, mostly.

I gotcha. I lumped your point in with others and mumbled things up a bit. I'm cool with Kessel on L2 and L3 over with Sid, particularly if Jake is staying with Sid.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Simon-Hornqvist isn't enough skill for Geno, but Pearson-Hornqvist is? I'm cool with all of those line combos, but none of them are materially better than what's already being done.

Ideally no, but I concede that we probably can't have every top 9 line with a primary scoring winger. But we shouldn't have 2 top 9 lines without a primary scoring winger. I think we pretty much agree based on the post above.

Also, I'd like to see if Rust-Brass-Kessel could be materially better than what we're running with. It sure looks better on paper judging from the sorts of attributes each has that can balance a line, and only time it was tried it was great.

It seems like pure stubbornness that we don't give it a shot even when our middle six is ass. I wonder how much of it based on purely prioritizing RW shots on the right side and LW shots on the left side because it's easier to pick up the puck along the boards. If so, that would make me wanna claw my eyes out.

 

[Riptide]

We also won a Cup with Malkin-Kessel together and you argued that away by saying 2017 wasn't a model you should try to repeat. So if we can't do 2016 or 2017, what on earth do you want?

I have yet to see a suggestion here. You don't want Malkin-Kessel together but you want more skill for Malkin that Simon-Hornqvist. How do we do that?

You start by not putting Kessel on L1 with Guentzel. After that it's pretty straight forward. The bottom line is we do not have the skilled wingers to put the best two (and really the only two) we have on the same line.

Simon/Hornqvist might be fine. But in order for that to really work it would be dependent on L3 really lighting things up like HBK did in 2015 (however unrealistic that goal is). And the only way L3 is going to have anywhere near that type of success is if Kessel is there. We almost certainly won't get HBK level's of production from L3 (regardless of who the center is), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try to create some semblance of balanced lines vs loading up L1 with Guentzel and Kessel.

 

[Riptide]

No, he was a RFA last year I believe....

Until he wasn't qualified - then he became a UFA.

 

[Gurglesons]

most teams don't have the players to run 3 top lines..... and it's not that we can't be successful with 2 top lines, but we can be more successful running 3 .

Do you consider what we are running right now 3 top lines?

I think that there is an argument to be said that this team has never been successful with Kessel on the third line outside of HBK and it is more evidence of the coaching staff wanting to make the players fit their desire rather than the system fitting the players

 

[Riptide]

Simon-Hornqvist isn't enough skill for Geno, but Pearson-Hornqvist is? I'm cool with all of those line combos, but none of them are materially better than what's already being done.

Don't be intentionally dense. This whole conversation started when someone said we should be putting Guentzel AND Kessel with Crosby. We don't have the skilled wingers here to do that.

 

[The Old Master]

Do you consider what we are running right now 3 top lines?

not at the moment..... but having sid, geno, and phil on deferent lines is a start. all 3 like to run their line....having all play on deferent lines keep them from fighting each other for the puck. and lets them play to their own strengths instead of trying to adjust to some one else.

 

[Gurglesons]

not at the moment..... but having sid, geno, and phil on deferent lines is a start.

Is it? I see no evidence outside of HBK that Kessel can drive his own line here.

And as I said to @KIRK over the summer. I’m not even sure Kessel was the one driving that line.

 

[The Old Master]

Is it? I see no evidence outside of HBK that Kessel can drive his own line here.

And as I said to @KIRK over the summer. I’m not even sure Kessel was the one driving that line.

I didn't see anyone else on that line that could drive the play. it seems to me that he also did it on the leafs.

 

[Riptide]

Do you consider what we are running right now 3 top lines?

In practice or in theory? Because in theory we have the bodies that should be able to give us that type of competitive edge. Unfortunately theory is great until it gets put into play... and on the ice we only have 1 top line. I personally don't think L3 is all that salvageable with Brassard centering it, and L2 is entirely dependent on Malkin getting out of his funk.

I think that there is an argument to be said that this team has never been successful with Kessel on the third line outside of HBK.

We had success in the regular season last year with him on L3 with Sheahan. Kessel had 6g/17pts at ES over 24 games between Jan 1 and the TD. The team went 17-6-1 over that span and scored 97g or 4 goals a game.