Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Turning Pages

[EightyOne]

If you want to blame that on Brassard go ahead.

I’d blame it on the fact 4 million dollars worth of D was behind the net with Riikola.

But who knows? Maybe the Penguins have some statistics on how the Rangers somehow score through the back of the net.

We can keep fighting. Why didn't he move down off the mid-slot and pick Buchnevich up when he saw $4mil in salary f***ing around behind the net?

At this point, I could give a f*** less if he's kept or not. I have a feeling a trade won't be better. It's like Letang last year. There's almost no chance the Pens improve from Brassard. He's not the best. But his numbers show better than we tend to think.

I mostly agree with you. I'm just not defending him as much lol.

Better off letting him walk in the summer and not risk sending Brass+ player/pick out for someone who likely ends up even worse.

 

[Gurglesons]

But he's played pretty poorly relative to his abilities and in particular his play away from the puck has been an ''adventure'' to put it kindly.

And Malkin over the past two months hasn’t?

It’s a knee jerk reaction. If you’re going to say the sample size is too small to say Brassard has an impact on the game, then judging his play on that sample size is too small.

We win at around a .600 rate with a healthy Brassard. That is with an underwhelming Sid or Geno. No Ian Cole. Bad Matt Murray, etc.

I just wouldn’t be surprised at all if Old JR moves him and we run Sheahan and Cullen and start losing games since no one respects our third line and it means barring a player coming back in we likely see ZAR and Wilson as our 4th line wingers.

I just don’t get the idea of moving someone that is working that we likely downgrade on. And Brassard isn’t young enough to have a Perron to Hagelin deal available in my opinion.

 

[Ryder71]

And Malkin over the past two months hasn’t?

It’s a knee jerk reaction. If you’re going to say the sample size is too small to say Brassard has an impact on the game, then judging his play on that sample size is too small.

We win at around a .600 rate with a healthy Brassard. That is with an underwhelming Sid or Geno. No Ian Cole. Bad Matt Murray, etc.

TBH I think you're taking that winning % out of context. I don't believe for one second that Brassard is the reason for this success. I think it's more coincidental than anything. Can you honestly say he's played well in his time here more than a game here or there?

And yes Geno has struggled, but 90% of his career here has been pretty darn good. So I think that's also an unbalanced argument. The thing that bothers me about DB the most is his compete level. I don't think there's any question that it's not nearly where it should be.

 

[EightyOne]

TBH I think you're taking that winning % out of context. I don't believe for one second that Brassard is the reason for this success. I think it's more coincidental than anything. Can you honestly say he's played well in his time here more than a game here or there?

And yes Geno has struggled, but 90% of his career here has been pretty darn good. So I think that's also an unbalanced argument. The thing that bothers me about DB the most is his compete level. I don't think there's any question about it's not nearly where it should be.

BUT

If it IS coincidental....wouldn't you keep him until it stops, anyway? Wins are wins, right??

 

[Riptide]

But Brassard is playing at minimum third line minutes. He’s a 3C that while being a disappointment is not costing us games.

If the litmus test is "not costing us games" I'm sure we can find someone else for that role who's also a better fit with Kessel.

 

[Peat]

We can keep fighting. Why didn't he move down off the mid-slot and pick Buchnevich up when he saw $4mil in salary ****ing around behind the net?

At this point, I could give a **** less if he's kept or not. I have a feeling a trade won't be better. It's like Letang last year. There's almost no chance the Pens improve from Brassard. He's not the best. But his numbers show better than we tend to think.

I mostly agree with you. I'm just not defending him as much lol.

Better off letting him walk in the summer and not risk sending Brass+ player/pick out for someone who likely ends up even worse.

Given some of the numbers out there says he's about one of the worst performers in the league right now, that's quite impressive

 

[EightyOne]

Given some of the numbers out there says he's about one of the worst performers in the league right now, that's quite impressive

185 of 195 means there's nine!!!

 

[Gurglesons]

If the litmus test is "not costing us games" I'm sure we can find someone else for that role who's also a better fit with Kessel.

So, pay more assets or hope you can dump Brassard for a “better fit”?

I just don’t understand why you do that if we win games when Brassard is in the line-up.

 

[Gurglesons]

Given some of the numbers out there says he's about one of the worst performers in the league right now, that's quite impressive

Yet our bottom six with and without him is notably pathetic as well.

Numbers are a couple weeks old, but this article examines it.

The Derick Brassard trade has done what it was supposed to do

 

[Ryder71]

BUT

If it IS coincidental....wouldn't you keep him until it stops, anyway? Wins are wins, right??

We've enjoyed a lot of success over the last three years and BRASS had nothing to with any of that. I understand you don't want to change a dynamic if it's working. With that being said though I see Brassard not competing like he should. And when you hear his comments after games recently, it's abundantly clear it's not all rainbows and sunshine. Hopefully he'll turn it around. But this sort of thing has gone on for quite some time now.

 

[Peat]

185 of 195 means there's nine!!!

As I said, some of the numbers...

The WAR formula at www.evolving-hockey.com has him at the 2nd worst in the NHL, with only Kesler worse. Fun!

So, pay more assets or hope you can dump Brassard for a “better fit”?

I just don’t understand why you do that if we win games when Brassard is in the line-up.

Out of curiosity, I don't suppose you know what the point percentage of teams employing Jack Johnson is?

 

[EightyOne]

I've missed most post game pressers.

What kind of shit is he talking?

 

[Ryder71]

I've missed most post game pressers.

What kind of **** is he talking?

I don't have the exact quotes in front of me but something along the lines of ''who knows where I'll be in the line up from one game to the next'' and then doubling down on it.

 

[Riptide]

Sheahan working last season doesn't mean he will work in the future, or other players similar to him will definitely work.

That I agree with. Which is why I'd be hesitant to go back to him as a 3c without a backup option (aka Brassard playing W) or without some other option available via trade (aka being able to do something like Faksa/Danault at the drop of a hat). If we could test drive it for a bit before the TD, then if it worked and based on last season I wouldn't be opposed to sticking with it longer. But I wouldn't bank on it working just because it did before. But then the premise I made wasn't to go back to Sheahan as the 3c, but to find a better version of him (such as Faksa) to be the 3c - someone who can play at a 30pt pace with a pair of wingers like Comeau and Pitlick.

Well of the last three 3rd line centers we've had over the past 4 seasons, we've had the defensive guy in Sheahan who did a lot of the heavy lifting, the smart gritty defensive guy in Bonino and the high skilled offensive/average defensive guy in Brassard. Is it really that much of a leap for you to see why another Brassard like center probably isn't the best way to go? Two of those three were much closer to a defensive type center then an offensive type center... And they both worked rather well at various times, while the other one has been meh at best.

 

[sauce66871]

Looking at the main boards, there is a thread with the idea of trading Krug from the Bruins.

The chances are basically non-existent of happening, but would the Pens have the pieces, or what would it take to bring him here?

 

[Gurglesons]

Looking at the main boards, there is a thread with the idea of trading Krug from the Bruins.

The chances are basically non-existent of happening, but would the Pens have the pieces, or what would it take to bring him here?

No. Likely would be Hornqvist or Kessel.

 

[Riptide]

And Malkin over the past two months hasn’t?

It’s a knee jerk reaction. If you’re going to say the sample size is too small to say Brassard has an impact on the game, then judging his play on that sample size is too small.

It's not a knee jerk reaction. People commented about his poor/awkward fit with Kessel in March and April when he was actually playing good hockey. Now we've had over half a season to watch him, and have a much better idea as to how he fits in here - or rather how he doesn't fit in here.

We win at around a .600 rate with a healthy Brassard. That is with an underwhelming Sid or Geno. No Ian Cole. Bad Matt Murray, etc.

I just wouldn’t be surprised at all if Old JR moves him and we run Sheahan and Cullen and start losing games since no one respects our third line and it means barring a player coming back in we likely see ZAR and Wilson as our 4th line wingers.

I just don’t get the idea of moving someone that is working that we likely downgrade on. And Brassard isn’t young enough to have a Perron to Hagelin deal available in my opinion.

You seem to have a funny definition of "is working". About the only thing that's happening is we're winning games, and that's more 'in spite of' Brassard than "because of".

They respect it now? Brassard as a center is on pace for ~21/22 points. Brassard and Kessel as a pair are getting wrecked across the board, and over the last 6 games where they've mostly been stapled to the hip, Brassard has the lowest SAT% on the team. And that's with Brassard actually having contributed offensively - something that's been largely lacking this season. What's worse is Sheahan and Cullen are beating them in regards to SAT% despite the fact that those two have a zone start of 2.2% and 4.2% over that same span.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's not a knee jerk reaction. People commented about his poor/awkward fit with Kessel in March and April when he was actually playing good hockey. Now we've had over half a season to watch him, and have a much better idea as to how he fits in here - or rather how he doesn't fit in here.

You seem to have a funny definition of "is working". About the only thing that's happening is we're winning games, and that's more 'in spite of' Brassard than "because of".

They respect it now? Brassard as a center is on pace for ~21/22 points. Brassard and Kessel as a pair are getting wrecked across the board, and over the last 6 games where they've mostly been stapled to the hip, Brassard has the lowest SAT% on the team. And that's with Brassard actually having contributed offensively - something that's been largely lacking this season. What's worse is Sheahan and Cullen are beating them in regards to SAT% despite the fact that those two have a zone start of 2.2% and 4.2% over that same span.

Maybe the issue is Kessel. :/

I’m not impressed with Brassard, but I never come away from a game thinking he is actively hurting us out there.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And Malkin over the past two months hasn’t?

It’s a knee jerk reaction. If you’re going to say the sample size is too small to say Brassard has an impact on the game, then judging his play on that sample size is too small.

We win at around a .600 rate with a healthy Brassard. That is with an underwhelming Sid or Geno. No Ian Cole. Bad Matt Murray, etc.

I just wouldn’t be surprised at all if Old JR moves him and we run Sheahan and Cullen and start losing games since no one respects our third line and it means barring a player coming back in we likely see ZAR and Wilson as our 4th line wingers.

I just don’t get the idea of moving someone that is working that we likely downgrade on. And Brassard isn’t young enough to have a Perron to Hagelin deal available in my opinion.

I don't think anybody's advocating trading Brassard and not acquiring a good 3C...

So, pay more assets or hope you can dump Brassard for a “better fit”?

I just don’t understand why you do that if we win games when Brassard is in the line-up.

Because correlation does not equal causation, and neither the individual numbers nor the eye test have been kind to Brassard.

Also, try looking at it this way - even a dubious Brassard is clearly better than Sheahan, Cullen, or Grant, so it makes sense that we'd be better with him than without him...just not necessarily as good as we could be with a better fit at 3C.

 

[Peat]

Yet our bottom six with and without him is notably pathetic as well.

Numbers are a couple weeks old, but this article examines it.

The Derick Brassard trade has done what it was supposed to do

How do we know that's Brassard, and not the unusual slumps for Rust/Cullen/Sheahan/the goaltenders? A sample of that size is open to all sorts of randomness; just posting up the numbers isn't enough.

I mean, its great to see some of the numbers to help explain how things are going well with him there, but he's just one guy and he's one guy with some of the worst damn numbers. How is Brassard the be all and end all of this unit with those numbers?

 

[Riptide]

So, pay more assets or hope you can dump Brassard for a “better fit”?

I just don’t understand why you do that if we win games when Brassard is in the line-up.

Because if he's not the reason for winning those games (and nothing I've seen of him shows that that is regularly the case), then when the reason we are winning those games (mainly a combination of Malkin (early on) /above average goaltending (recently)) changes we will no longer be winning games and still have Brassard hanging around doing nothing/little.

All depends on what players you're talking about. But given that most of the names tossed around are players who are signed beyond this season, you're moving Brassard and potentially/likely adding something to get someone who is hopefully a better fit, but who is also signed past this season, which means we've got a quality option for next season and beyond. And given Brassard's overall level of play, I don't think most of the player's we've talked about could be any worse then the version of him that we've been seeing most of this season.

 

[Riptide]

I don't have the exact quotes in front of me but something along the lines of ''who knows where I'll be in the line up from one game to the next next'' and then doubling down on it.

Yeah I remember hearing/reading that. He wasn't really talking shit, but it's not exactly all that encouraging either. I mean we've tried him with Crosby. He wasn't great. We've tried him with Guentzel and Hornqvist on L2, didn't do much. We've tried him with a bunch of different wingers on L3. He hasn't been great. And on top of all of that, other than recently, he's been playing like he doesn't give a shit.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah I remember hearing/reading that. He wasn't really talking ****, but it's not exactly all that encouraging either. I mean we've tried him with Crosby. He wasn't great. We've tried him with Guentzel and Hornqvist on L2, didn't do much. We've tried him with a bunch of different wingers on L3. He hasn't been great. And on top of all of that, other than recently, he's been playing like he doesn't give a ****.

When was Brassard with Jake and Hornqvist?

I think Brassard usage is really one of his biggest issues. Kessel isn’t even working with Malkin.

Also, to your point above. Are third line centers often a reason teams win games?

 

[Riptide]

When was Brassard with Jake and Hornqvist?

I think Brassard usage is really one of his biggest issues. Kessel isn’t even working with Malkin.

Also, to your point above. Are third line centers often a reason teams win games?

They can be. Just not when they're playing at a ~22pt pace as a center.

Smart ass comment aside (I couldn't resist), do you think they are? Because while we've been winning games lately, our goaltending has also been superb. Since Dec 1st we have a .938 sv% and ~2.06 GAA. And every day you shorten that time frame the numbers only get better. So while we're 12-3-1 in our last 16, 4th in GF and 4th in GA... I think that is a much bigger reason why we're winning. And seeing how Brassard is going very little to contribute in GF or our overall goaltending... I don't think he plays much of a reason at all as to why we've been winning - and the period in question accounts for over half of this teams win's this season.

 

[Gurglesons]

They can be. Just not when they're playing at a ~22pt pace as a center.

Smart ass comment aside (I couldn't resist), do you think they are? Because while we've been winning games lately, our goaltending has also been superb. Since Dec 1st we have a .938 sv% and ~2.06 GAA. And every day you shorten that time frame the numbers only get better. So while we're 12-3-1 in our last 16, 4th in GF and 4th in GA... I think that is a much bigger reason why we're winning. And seeing how Brassard is going very little to contribute in GF or our overall goaltending... I don't think he plays much of a reason at all as to why we've been winning - and the period in question accounts for over half of this teams win's this season.

Brassard is on a 31 pt pace.

And I think the amount of improvement we can get for Brassard and what it would cost is minimal tbh.