Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Trolololo

[Gurglesons]

Ian Cole is more of the same. The only reason you keep him is because of the chemistry he had with Schultz.

 

[3074326]

Or someone LIKE Cole.

BUT, as with Daley (and his ability to move the puck and drive offense), we never replaced him.

Yeah, Daley's puck movement was really nice.

Outside of Letang, we have no idea what to expect from the defense each game. Dumo has even been inconsistent. It's a real problem. I think Jack Johnson could be the new Daley, but we need more reliable dmen if we want that to work. Maatta, Riikola, Oleksiak and Ruhwedel are not those players.

You know who looked really good alongside Jack Johnson in Columbus? Ian Cole.

 

[KIRK]

Ian Cole is more of the same. The only reason you keep him is because of the chemistry he had with Schultz.

He also is the only partner who managed to make Oleksiak look like a NHL defenseman.

He was more reliable when it came to making smart, quick decisions with the puck than any defenseman currently healthy on this roster save Letang.

And, he was able to be a warrior in his own zone without chasing like a moron.

On many teams, that qualifies as more of the same.

On this Penguins team, it would make him unique.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah, Daley's puck movement was really nice.

Outside of Letang, we have no idea what to expect from the defense each game. Dumo has even been inconsistent. It's a real problem. I think Jack Johnson could be the new Daley, but we need more reliable dmen if we want that to work. Maatta, Riikola, Oleksiak and Ruhwedel are not those players.

You know who looked really good alongside Jack Johnson in Columbus? Ian Cole.

The think we miss most with Daley is his ability to rush the puck up ice himself. We never replaced it, and frankly for all of the good things he does do offensively, rushing the puck up ice is not Justin Schultz's thing.

 

[Gurglesons]

He also is the only partner who managed to make Oleksiak look like a NHL defenseman.

He was more reliable when it came to making smart, quick decisions with the puck than any defenseman currently healthy on this roster save Letang.

And, he was able to be a warrior in his own zone without chasing like a moron.

On many teams, that qualifies as more of the same.

On this Penguins team, it would make him unique.

Yet he was 5th and 6th on back to back cup winners in ice time.

Ian Cole is not the solution. He’s another player that got buried when he was asked to play above his pay grade.

 

[EightyOne]

Yet he was 5th and 6th on back to back cup winners in ice time.

Ian Cole is not the solution. He’s another player that got buried when he was asked to play above his pay grade.

We talking about Bonino again?

 

[KIRK]

Yet he was 5th and 6th on back to back cup winners in ice time.

And last year?

And this year?

BTW, I'm NOT saying he is irreplaceable. I am saying that Cole was a piece of a cup winning mix on defense and what he added to the mix on defense was unique in that he was a gritty, defensive defenseman who nonetheless fit what the Pens needed their defensemen to do to help drive offense.

JR hasn't bothered to replace what Cole brought to the table . . . or perhaps thinks he's replaced it with Jack Johnson. THAT is the real issue.

EDIT: One also could argue that keeping Cole instead of shopping for one saves assets, and one also could argue that moving Maatta, because you were able to keep Cole, could've further enhanced team assets (either futures, or maybe you move Maatta and RFA Rust). End of the day, it's about asset management. Keeping Cole for the 3M it would've cost and moving Maatta would've been better asset management. And, again, I think we both know the decision to move on from Cole wasn't about his start to the 2017-2018 season or anything else ON the ice. It was about a player rubbing a coach the wrong way, plain and simple.

We talking about Bonino again?

No. @pixiesfanyo is explaining to me how little having Cole (or replacing him with someone who did what he did defensively and physically while still being able to make smart, quick, reliable decisions with the puck) mattered/matters to the Penguins defense. Or maybe he's saying something else.

 

[Gurglesons]

We talking about Bonino again?

I don’t consider 3C and a bottom pairing D equal.

3C is probably the 5th most important piece in today’s NHL after 1D, 1 and 2 C and goalie.

 

[Gurglesons]

And last year?

And this year?

BTW, I'm NOT saying he is irreplaceable. I am saying that Cole was a piece of a cup winning mix on defense and what he added to the mix on defense was unique in that he was a gritty, defensive defenseman who nonetheless fit what the Pens needed their defensemen to do to help drive offense.

JR hasn't bothered to replace what Cole brought to the table . . . or perhaps thinks he's replaced it with Jack Johnson. THAT is the real issue.

EDIT: One also could argue that keeping Cole instead of shopping for one saves assets, and one also could argue that moving Maatta, because you were able to keep Cole, could've further enhanced team assets (either futures, or maybe you move Maatta and RFA Rust). End of the day, it's about asset management. Keeping Cole for the 3M it would've cost and moving Maatta would've been better asset management. And, again, I think we both know the decision to move on from Cole wasn't about his start to the 2017-2018 season or anything else ON the ice. It was about a player rubbing a coach the wrong way, plain and simple.

The issue isn’t that Cole is a bad player. It’s just if we had Cole instead of Maatta with the current D core we’d be in the same place with Schultz going down.

The issue is we spent 8+ mil on 3 D that can’t step up in an injury.

 

[mpp9]

I'm gonna be pissed if Martinez goes to Tampa. That should be a Maatta swap.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

If we deal Brassard, what 3C are we going to get that isn't going to command a 1st or 1st+? You want Sutter back?

 

[KIRK]

The issue isn’t that Cole is a bad player. It’s just if we had Cole instead of Maatta with the current D core we’d be in the same place with Schultz going down.

The issue is we spent 8+ mil on 3 D that can’t step up in an injury.

I'd rather have Cole than this version of Maatta, but I also was very clear that even IF this happened and even WITH Schultz healthy, the other issue is needing to replace one of Johnson/Oleksiak with a more impactful defenseman.

To repeat what I wrote earlier, JR could've done what he did, the 8+ million on the 3D OR for the same cap hit (and by going with Blueger instead of Sheahan for 4th line) he could've had defensive pairings of Dumo-Letang, De Haan-Schultz, and Cole-Oleksaik/Riikola PLUS whatever futures he could've gotten for Maatta (or maybe he moves Maatta and Rust for a winger for Geno?).

Cole is a smaller piece of that equation, of course, but he's certainly still a piece.

 

[KIRK]

If we deal Brassard, what 3C are we going to get that isn't going to command a 1st or 1st+? You want Sutter back?

Brassard is gone after this season.

If the Pens are a bubble playoff team, then I'd look to be a buyer and a seller . . . and one of the pieces I'd be open to selling-- if current trends in his play hold-- is Brassard. For whatever reason, he hasn't panned out in a season that doesn't look like one in which the Pens are strong cup contenders. Unless something changes in that equation, I'm not sure that question is overly important.

 

[Riptide]

He also is the only partner who managed to make Oleksiak look like a NHL defenseman.

And? That's not really much of an endorsement on Cole as it is a stinging rebuke on Oleksiak.

He was more reliable when it came to making smart, quick decisions with the puck than any defenseman currently healthy on this roster save Letang.

I think you're remembering too much of the 2016/17 version of him, then what he provided us last year. He had a LOT of up's and down's last season.

 

[Riptide]

Brassard is gone after this season.

If the Pens are a bubble playoff team, then I'd look to be a buyer and a seller . . . and one of the pieces I'd be open to selling-- if current trends in his play hold-- is Brassard. For whatever reason, he hasn't panned out in a season that doesn't look like one in which the Pens are strong cup contenders. Unless something changes in that equation, I'm not sure that question is overly important.

Yep. Trade him, then use those assets (or more/less) and get a different center from someone who'll be around next season.

 

[Ryder71]

As many here know I was a huge advocate in wanting to keep Cole. And it's not that he was a great defensemen, but he helped insulate Oleksiak and that tandem was quite effective. And he's far better than JJ in amost every facet of the game. So simply put relative to who we currently have he'd be a pretty sizable improvement. And he's gone because the coach didn't like him. That started a bad chain of events.

 

[Riptide]

As many here know I was a huge advocate in wanting to keep Cole. And it's not that he was a great defensemen, but he helped insulate Oleksiak and that tandem was quite effective. And he's far better than JJ in amost every facet of the game. So simply put relative to who we currently have he'd be a pretty sizable improvement. And he's gone because the coach didn't like him. That started a bad chain of events.

He's also gone because he was a pending UFA that Ottawa thought they could flip - likely for more then what they ended up getting for him.

 

[Ryder71]

He's also gone because he was a pending UFA that Ottawa thought they could flip - likely for more then what they ended up getting for him.

When you're trying to win a 3rd cup in a row and you have a very good bottom tandem (as they were playing at the time) it makes very little sense to break that pairing up. Oleksiak since has been less than stellar. I think there were other ways around it. That's certainly not the only reason we lost, but it was the start of a bad trend.

 

[AverageJoeFan]

Yep. Trade him, then use those assets (or more/less) and get a different center from someone who'll be around next season.

Who is this center, tho? I am asking cause I am not sure who fits for us at C on the 3rd line.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'd rather have Cole than this version of Maatta, but I also was very clear that even IF this happened and even WITH Schultz healthy, the other issue is needing to replace one of Johnson/Oleksiak with a more impactful defenseman.

To repeat what I wrote earlier, JR could've done what he did, the 8+ million on the 3D OR for the same cap hit (and by going with Blueger instead of Sheahan for 4th line) he could've had defensive pairings of Dumo-Letang, De Haan-Schultz, and Cole-Oleksaik/Riikola PLUS whatever futures he could've gotten for Maatta (or maybe he moves Maatta and Rust for a winger for Geno?).

Cole is a smaller piece of that equation, of course, but he's certainly still a piece.

I’ve made no bones how I feel about TB, but I can understand why he signed Sheahan. He did have a good season last year and it was basically a show me deal.

Then like I said earlier, I get wanting to add more depth... but Cullen is showing his age, Sheahan is having a disastrous season, and Grant is vanilla extract. They had chances to give TB a shot this season and instead keep slapping him in the face IMHO.

If TB was 21 or 22 I would say no big deal, but he’s not... he’s not getting any younger and he’s put in his time, been praised by JR, Guerin and Recchi as being ready and just needing a shot... even the condescending beat writers like Yohe and Mackey think he deserves his chance.

Having to watch a guy like ZAR keep going up after barely putting in any time in the A has to be frustrating for him I’m sure. There is no way he hasn’t also noticed that Grant and Cullen moved over to wing while he toils down in the minors.

When I hear a guy like Yohe say “poor Teddy Blueger” in radio interviews, you know the guy is getting screwed over.

 

[SEALBound]

I bet money we put a claim in on Zykov.

Scherbak?

 

[Gurglesons]

When you're trying to win a 3rd cup in a row and you have a very good bottom tandem (as they were playing at the time) it makes very little sense to break that pairing up. Oleksiak since has been less than stellar. I think there were other ways around it. That's certainly not the only reason we lost, but it was the start of a bad trend.

If you don’t move Cole you’re likely going into trying to win a third Cup with Crosby - Malkin - Sheahan - Rowney.

 

[Ryder71]

If you don’t move Cole you’re likely going into trying to win a third Cup with Crosby - Malkin - Sheahan - Rowney.

I think we could have moved someone else instead and still got Brassard. Sully wanted Cole gone, it's that simple.

 

[TimmyD]

I bet money we put a claim in on Zykov.

Scherbak?

I’d try to claim him. Free assets with some potential can’t hurt right?

 

[SEALBound]

I’ve made no bones how I feel about TB, but I can understand why he signed Sheahan. He did have a good season last year and it was basically a show me deal.

Then like I said earlier, I get wanting to add more depth... but Cullen is showing his age, Sheahan is having a disastrous season, and Grant is vanilla extract. They had chances to give TB a shot this season and instead keep slapping him in the face IMHO.

If TB was 21 or 22 I would say no big deal, but he’s not... he’s not getting any younger and he’s put in his time, been praised by JR, Guerin and Recchi as being ready and just needing a shot... even the condescending beat writers like Yohe and Mackey think he deserves his chance.

Having to watch a guy like ZAR keep going up after barely putting in any time in the A has to be frustrating for him I’m sure. There is no way he hasn’t also noticed that Grant and Cullen moved over to wing while he toils down in the minors.

When I hear a guy like Yohe say “poor Teddy Blueger” in radio interviews, you know the guy is getting screwed over.

This is why I said it was the flat out wrong decision to call up Garret Wilson over TB (or anyone else) when Hornqvist went down.