Value of: Sabres need an NHL-calibre goalie

[tsujimoto74]

Allen for Ullmark and a 2nd?

Allen is paid 4M this year, but has already signed a 2 years / 2.8M AAV after that. Upgrade on Ullmark for cheap, and you'll pay him cheap for years to come.

Ullmark is paid 2M. We got 2M out of the mass. He finishes the year with the Habs, then GTFO and we play Primeau. And we take yet another cool 2nd pick.

Allen an upgrade. Guy couldn't even manage to not be a trainwreck playing for one of the best defensive teams in the NHL.

 

[bernmeister]

Vegas wouldn't retain on MAF during the offseason, they aren't going to suddenly retain 50% on him on top of giving up a 1st and 2 seconds (and Martinez) for DeAngelo and Georgiev

You are being delusional

Are we SURE they wouldn't retain before or now?
Half a loaf is better than none to a starving man.
With AlexPiet signed they are now really up vs cap.
Had to jettison Schmidt for only a 3rd.

All that suggests if they got a deal where they could unload a more expensive player for less expensive in a cap neutral deal, or one like mine where NY could finagle it to give them a breath more of room, they'd go there.

But the price to add for this campaign and get younger and cheaper going forward is futures.

 

[Mosby]

I still don't know why they didn't resolve this in the offseason when there were 20 goalies available and it was obvious at that time that Hutton and Ullmark are not the answer. This is far more difficult to resolve in season.

 

[bernmeister]

So now Rangers fans are finally willing to admit that DeAngelo has baggage? I don't see much of a market for the player personally Nor do I see Vegas paying a premium to get a guy like Georgiev.

Most of us honest enuf to admit there is baggage, even if rules vs political discussion do not permit elaboration.

That said, he has talent as a passer and shooter with good stats in that regard for a D.

W'o the baggage the asking price would be higher.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I still don't know why they didn't resolve this in the offseason when there were 20 goalies available and it was obvious at that time that Hutton and Ullmark are not the answer. This is far more difficult to resolve in season.

Sabres fans wonder the same thing. Ullmark is fine, if unspectacular, but Hutton...woof.

 

[explore]

Are we SURE they wouldn't retain before or now?
Half a loaf is better than none to a starving man.
With AlexPiet signed they are now really up vs cap.
Had to jettison Schmidt for only a 3rd.

All that suggests if they got a deal where they could unload a more expensive player for less expensive in a cap neutral deal, or one like mine where NY could finagle it to give them a breath more of room, they'd go there.

But the price to add for this campaign and get younger and cheaper going forward is futures.

You're right, Vegas actually offered teams a 2nd rounder to take MAF at 50% salary and there were no takers.

If that's the case, trading directly with Vegas should be easier for the Sabres and wouldn't require the Rangers at all. MAF at 50% is a very useful goalie for the Sabres.

The main issue is if MAF is willing to waive for the Sabres and I'm guessing Vegas doesn't want to take any salary back in the deal, which makes it difficult for Buffalo. If Vegas took Hutton back, it would be an easy trade since Hutton is a UFA at the end of the year

 

[Fatass]

Sabre’s look like they a good young team. They deserve better goaltending for sure sure.

 

[bernmeister]

You're right, Vegas actually offered teams a 2nd rounder to take MAF at 50% salary and there were no takers.

If that's the case, trading directly with Vegas should be easier for the Sabres and wouldn't require the Rangers at all. MAF at 50% is a very useful goalie for the Sabres.

The main issue is if MAF is willing to waive for the Sabres and I'm guessing Vegas doesn't want to take any salary back in the deal, which makes it difficult for Buffalo. If Vegas took Hutton back, it would be an easy trade since Hutton is a UFA at the end of the year

Yeah, but is a single 2nd enough for 2 yrs of MAF? Even retained?
Canes seeking 1st AND a 2nd may be a bit much, but either a 1st or a 2nd +, would more possibly have got the job done.

You suggest I'm too Rangers focused with this prop.
You note if Vegas takes expiring Hutton, that could work.
That doesn't work for Vegas, who is going all in.
If Lehner goes down, w/o a good backup, they're effed.

On the other hand, w/my deal, Vegas is buying Geo in a package. Lehner goes down, there is a fallback.

Ironically, Rangers could take back expiring Hutton, as they have Shesty as clear #1, it is a short season, and they can go w/Kincaid as backup while getting a # of games out of Wall and Huska on a cup of coffee.

What I do insist on is to recognize usually nobody does anybody any favors.
This is not a demand for a premium, this is an ask for market rate.

And I am not interloping. You are so set on the hope you get MAF you are not looking at it sufficiently from Vegas perspective.
If you can actually cut a deal, esp a better deal betw just you two, then fine.

I have consistently maintained Rangers have extra vets that need to be pared down so the roster gets to a core.
Hence an open mind/get creative on moving certain guys.

 

[tsujimoto74]

You're right, Vegas actually offered teams a 2nd rounder to take MAF at 50% salary and there were no takers.

If that's the case, trading directly with Vegas should be easier for the Sabres and wouldn't require the Rangers at all. MAF at 50% is a very useful goalie for the Sabres.

The main issue is if MAF is willing to waive for the Sabres and I'm guessing Vegas doesn't want to take any salary back in the deal, which makes it difficult for Buffalo. If Vegas took Hutton back, it would be an easy trade since Hutton is a UFA at the end of the year

Gotta think Vegas would be more receptive to a cap neutral trade now than over the summer, since the idea then was to move Fleury's salary to help get the team cap compliant.

 

[explore]

Yeah, but is a single 2nd enough for 2 yrs of MAF? Even retained?
Canes seeking 1st AND a 2nd may be a bit much, but either a 1st or a 2nd +, would more possibly have got the job done.

You suggest I'm too Rangers focused with this prop.
You note if Vegas takes expiring Hutton, that could work.
That doesn't work for Vegas, who is going all in.
If Lehner goes down, w/o a good backup, they're effed.

On the other hand, w/my deal, Vegas is buying Geo in a package. Lehner goes down, there is a fallback.

Ironically, Rangers could take back expiring Hutton, as they have Shesty as clear #1, it is a short season, and they can go w/Kincaid as backup while getting a # of games out of Wall and Huska on a cup of coffee.

What I do insist on is to recognize usually nobody does anybody any favors.
This is not a demand for a premium, this is an ask for market rate.

And I am not interloping. You are so set on the hope you get MAF you are not looking at it sufficiently from Vegas perspective.
If you can actually cut a deal, esp a better deal betw just you two, then fine.

I have consistently maintained Rangers have extra vets that need to be pared down so the roster gets to a core.
Hence an open mind/get creative on moving certain guys.

Some of what you're saying makes sense, but what you're trying to do is just complicated since you're both trying to offload a player with a lot of negative publicity recently, and you're trying to involve a third team to flip a player with a ten-team no-trade clause, so just based on that your proposal comes off as difficult to achieve

Most trades are difficult enough to complete when involving just two teams and no movement restrictions or clashing personalities, but when you add all these extra things it becomes less and less likely to happen

Gotta think Vegas would be more receptive to a cap neutral trade now than over the summer, since the idea then was to move Fleury's salary to help get the team cap compliant.

I'd love for that to be the case

 

[Vegan Knight]

Yeah, but is a single 2nd enough for 2 yrs of MAF? Even retained?
Canes seeking 1st AND a 2nd may be a bit much, but either a 1st or a 2nd +, would more possibly have got the job done.

You suggest I'm too Rangers focused with this prop.
You note if Vegas takes expiring Hutton, that could work.
That doesn't work for Vegas, who is going all in.
If Lehner goes down, w/o a good backup, they're effed.

On the other hand, w/my deal, Vegas is buying Geo in a package. Lehner goes down, there is a fallback.

Ironically, Rangers could take back expiring Hutton, as they have Shesty as clear #1, it is a short season, and they can go w/Kincaid as backup while getting a # of games out of Wall and Huska on a cup of coffee.

What I do insist on is to recognize usually nobody does anybody any favors.
This is not a demand for a premium, this is an ask for market rate.

And I am not interloping. You are so set on the hope you get MAF you are not looking at it sufficiently from Vegas perspective.
If you can actually cut a deal, esp a better deal betw just you two, then fine.

I have consistently maintained Rangers have extra vets that need to be pared down so the roster gets to a core.
Hence an open mind/get creative on moving certain guys.

Your proposal was very bad. Vegas doesn't want DeAngelo, no one does, not even Rangers fans judging by the tons of posts trying to flog him off to anyone and everyone.

Vegas isn't giving the Rangers three picks and our solid top four defenseman for him and a goalie when we already have a starter. All for the Rangers to hold 1.75 and get additional assets from Buffalo? And Vegas saves a whole 275k?

Let alone the fact that having two starters is working quite well for Vegas to start this condensed season?

 

[Vegan Knight]

Gotta think Vegas would be more receptive to a cap neutral trade now than over the summer, since the idea then was to move Fleury's salary to help get the team cap compliant.

To a point in a vacuum they would probably be more receptive to it now than the offseason (which was weirdly the fall not the summer this year lol) but it really doesn't make sense to Vegas to go for a cap neutral trade while downgrading their goaltending so much.

If they're going to have the same cap this season and still retain 3.5 next season why would they get worse goaltending now? Why not wait until the offseason and do it then?

 

[explore]

To a point in a vacuum they would probably be more receptive to it now than the offseason (which was weirdly the fall not the summer this year lol) but it really doesn't make sense to Vegas to go for a cap neutral trade while downgrading their goaltending so much.

If they're going to have the same cap this season and still retain 3.5 next season why would they get worse goaltending now? Why not wait until the offseason and do it then?

You make a good point that it may make more sense for Vegas to wait until the offseason to make this trade, but if you take back Hutton now, you'd gain another $1.25 million in cap space this season (on top of $3.5 million next season), plus I think the Sabres would take MAF at 50% without the additional second rounder, so there's a savings from that as well. But like you said, it'd come at the expense of your solid backup goalie.

There's also the uncertainty of being able to trade MAF again during the offseason, because teams may move on to other options (and you'd have to add a sweetener to make the trade happen again). The Sabres need a goalie upgrade now, so from their perspective there's urgency to get it done, but I can understand Vegas' perspective of why they might not want to make the move

 

[ConnorMcNugesaitl]

Allen an upgrade. Guy couldn't even manage to not be a trainwreck playing for one of the best defensive teams in the NHL.

This is some hilariously bad revisionist history, that .927 save percentage he had last year sure is like a train wreck.

If there was anything you'd think a Sabres fan would be able to recognize it's a train wreck yet here we are.

 

[bernmeister]

Some of what you're saying makes sense, but what you're trying to do is just complicated since you're both trying to offload a player with a lot of negative publicity recently, and you're trying to involve a third team to flip a player with a ten-team no-trade clause, so just based on that your proposal comes off as difficult to achieve

Most trades are difficult enough to complete when involving just two teams and no movement restrictions or clashing personalities, but when you add all these extra things it becomes less and less likely to happen....

So we walk away from things that are difficult, just because that makes them less likely?

Where would the world be if we only took the easy path?

People say want simple solutions to complex problems, but in reality they accept an actual basis to get the job done, even if it isn't pretty, even if it is a rough fit which requires smoothing of the edges or other refinement over time.

That said, let's see what if anything gives on MAF and if not, will you pay my price for Geo.

 

[tsujimoto74]

This is some hilariously bad revisionist history, that .927 save percentage he had last year sure is like a train wreck.

If there was anything you'd think a Sabres fan would be able to recognize it's a train wreck yet here we are.

Congrats to him on managing to look like a capable backup for a season on, again, one of the best defensive teams in the NHL. I wouldn't trade either Ullmark or a 2nd for him 1-for-1.

 

[bernmeister]

Your proposal was very bad. Vegas doesn't want DeAngelo, no one does, not even Rangers fans judging by the tons of posts trying to flog him off to anyone and everyone.

Vegas isn't giving the Rangers three picks and our solid top four defenseman for him and a goalie when we already have a starter. All for the Rangers to hold 1.75 and get additional assets from Buffalo? And Vegas saves a whole 275k?

Let alone the fact that having two starters is working quite well for Vegas to start this condensed season?

Somebody somewhere had a report on Yardbarker I believe about how LVGK are up vs it on a nitely basis as to cap mgmt.

You ignore that Geo is younger and safer than MAF who could hold up well another couple of years or lose the wheels overnight. And remember MAF's excellence has historically been based on superior reflexes. When those go, and eventually they will, that will be a big deal.

Deangelo has baggage but is better investment to have depth this yr and next than aging Martinez.

If you want to argue the futures ask was a tad high, fine.
But to get the benefits Vegas would have to give NY futures.

 

[Groo]

Dubnyk for Samuelsson

 

[Fjordy]

Dubnyk for Samuelsson

His numbers look bad, it doesn't work

 

[PAZ]

Gotta think Vegas would be more receptive to a cap neutral trade now than over the summer, since the idea then was to move Fleury's salary to help get the team cap compliant.

Wasn't that before Vegas traded Schmidt? Vegas is cap compliant now, I don't see any reason why they would want to move Fleury unless they got an adequate backup and they didn't have to retain. Otherwise it's better to have insurance in this shortened season in case Lehner goes down and deal with the Fleury situation again in the offseason.

 

[Nikolajs Sillers]

Neither will Eichel once he gets tired of the circus

Don't derail thread please.

 

[explore]

Wasn't that before Vegas traded Schmidt? Vegas is cap compliant now, I don't see any reason why they would want to move Fleury unless they got an adequate backup and they didn't have to retain. Otherwise it's better to have insurance in this shortened season in case Lehner goes down and deal with the Fleury situation again in the offseason.

I think this is the most realistic outcome. It's just wishful thinking on our (Sabres fanbase) part to get MAF to resolve the goaltending issue our management didn't bother addressing during the offseason

 

[Kaibur]

Maybe a lesser deal?

Adin Hill + Blake Speers for Jonas Johansson + Rasmus Asplund

 

[explore]

Maybe a lesser deal?

Adin Hill + Blake Speers for Jonas Johansson + Rasmus Asplund

It doesn't do enough to warrant the trade

 

[Vegan Knight]

Somebody somewhere had a report on Yardbarker I believe about how LVGK are up vs it on a nitely basis as to cap mgmt.

You ignore that Geo is younger and safer than MAF who could hold up well another couple of years or lose the wheels overnight. And remember MAF's excellence has historically been based on superior reflexes. When those go, and eventually they will, that will be a big deal.

Deangelo has baggage but is better investment to have depth this yr and next than aging Martinez.

If you want to argue the futures ask was a tad high, fine.
But to get the benefits Vegas would have to give NY futures.

I think teams largely missed the boat on fleecing Vegas for Fleury. Well, you can say Vancouver did.

At this point it seems the team is content to get the benefit of having a reliable starter who is rested playing every game.

The offseason gives Vegas more options. They can retain half and find a team to retain half again, 1.75 retained for a single year, with less due in actual money, is something they can get done for a 2nd. The team retaining would also get a pick from whoever gets him at 1.75, as Fleury that low is an asset with value, that's more than enough compensation.

Or they buy the contract out. It saves more money next season than trading him with retention at the cost of almost two million the season after. Not ideal but definitely workable considering we look pretty decent with the cap the next few seasons and have other players who can and probably will cycle out (as all teams do.)

We are up to the cap this season but our weird lineups this season are because the team doesn't want to lose Kolesar to waivers. It sounds ridiculous and maybe it is but that seems to be the case. They traded a 2nd for him (that became Texier, oof) and it seems they got wind someone would take him if put on waivers so our lineups seem to be designed around that for now.

Also, Georgiev is for sure a starter but I don't think Vegas wants to have two starting caliber goalies every season with all the drama that goes with it. I think they'll deal with it for this season that is condensed but probably would rather have one guy be the guy with a capable and reliable backup who is comfortable in that role.