Friedman: Sabres ask on Eichel is still huge

[wraparound]

What about 3 OVA, Comtois, Groulx, Thrun, and Henrique?

sold

 

[wraparound]

rather Anaheim go after Reinhart or just pull out of talks with Buffalo, personally.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Maybe I'm off with him because of my time in EHM, but I'm also not entirely sure why we should write of Sam Steel at this point. His production in the NHL has been kinda bland, but his overall stat line really doesn't seem bad for a 20-22 year old. If he becomes a regular PKing forward, he seems to fit the mold of an all-around 3C to me. He's already good with faceoffs, has fairly solid analytics and has produced around a 30 point pace per 82 games, so he's really not far off.

He may not hit the upside some thought he had as he was destroying the WHL, but I don't really see why he can't become a Nick Bonino type of 3C either. I don't know if that's enough of an upside for Buffalo to bother with him in an Eichel trade, but it definitely seems like enough to be a good complementary piece for the Ducks going forward.

 

[tomd]

We dont need a contending team right off the bat. We have time. Why you want to immediately jump to worst case scenario is beyond me.

It's actually a pretty realistic case but I've learned that counting on the best case scenario is always a mistake. Using that rule it wasn't hard for me to predict that they would finish last in the Pacific this past year.

Anyway, this is all an academic exercise. I don't think the Ducks will pull the trigger on an Eichel trade with the very real possibility that he'll be needing surgery.

 

[bernmeister]

They're going to draft Beniers or Eklund. IF Eklund is available, but it's rumored he'll be going #1.

Is Power not projected 1OA?

Sabres fans are insanely overvaluing Eichel in this thread.

There have been 0 players in the last 30 years who have been traded for the kind of packages thrown out in here. Taking the Ottawa Duchene trade and adding a good asset on top of that is just about the best case scenario with Eichel, and that's even with ignoring the fact that Anaheim's pick is definitely #3 while Ottawa's pick was just a future 1st.

Something like Henrique, Comtois, Terry, Dostal and #3 is the full value price for Eichel. Thinking he somehow has even more value than that is just ignoring what actual star players get traded for. I can understand why that seems underwhelming, I'd be disappointed if that's what I was getting back for a 25 year old Malkin too, but players just don't have the kind of insane value that fans put out.

I think that's overly generous w/3OA at present, see comments below.

Oh yeah, Rags definitely have the pieces.

NONE of those pieces are on the table, esp for Eichel as he actually is NOW.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the possible treatment options for Eichel are:

1. Rest and recovery - no surgery
2. Rest and recovery - traditional surgery
3. Experimental surgery

The third option is not necessarily out of the picture even if Eichel goes through with the second option. The Sabres hesitation with the third option is there is very little data on success rate for athletes.

My understanding is those are the 3 options but what you called experimental is not really experimental, but just does not have history so far w/NHL players.

I think both of these are true:

1. Buffalo shouldn't settle on a lesser package than fair value for Eichel when they can just hold onto him
2. Other teams shouldn't bend over backwards to meet any sort of asinine demand that Buffalo has

The outcome here should be a fair deal for both sides. If either side can't make that work, whether it be from Buffalo asking for too much or other teams offering too little, they shouldn't just make the trade just to get it over with.

I've posted this same package like 5 times, but I think something like Henrique, Comtois, Terry, Dostal and #3 overall is completely reasonable from both sides, and I don't see why either side would make a sticking point out of it. Buffalo isn't getting Zegras/Drysdale/Byfield/Kakko for Eichel with his neck injury, but Anaheim/LA/NYR won't get Eichel by lowballing Buffalo.

IF AND WHEN Eichel's health changes, then and in that event the price goes up. Across the board.
Right now imo NYR should have no interest and higher end assets are too generous.

I expect the surgery JE wants to be successful, but
1. that has to take place
2. there is signif recovery time, then he's gotta get in playing shape, etc.
He's getting paid while he is out of commission.

I wouldn't call the disc replacement surgery experimental. It is a newer technique and it has never been performed on an NHL player. But, it has been performed on a lot of people at this point.

Given that we are roughly 5 months out from Eichel's last game, I would be surprised if further rest and rehab resolved the issue. Eichel had one doctor say that if by the 6 week mark rest and rehab hadn't resolved the issue, rest and rehab was unlikely to ever resolve the issue.

It seem like we are at the game of chicken point of things where Eichel wants the disc replacement and the Sabres doctors will not approve of that procedure. The Sabres cannot force Eichel to get a spinal fusion surgery, so here we sit...

this ^

That's a sad thing to say to a 24 year old kid. ... and yes, at 24 he's still basically a kid with his whole life ahead of him. Pain management shouldn't be in his vocabulary... at least not at that age.

and this ^

 

[bernmeister]

The Sabes have to bend, buckle and capitulate to the ultimate reality that Eichel is the sole decider of what medical treatment he gets.

The faster that is done and over with and we have an idea of how well he has recovered [presuming that is the case], the faster upgraded packages w/signif pieces can be offered assuming BUF wants to go there.

But unless someone is stupid, no team is gonna pay healthy/no issue top dollar for Eichel when that is not his current and true condition.

If for any reason Sabes want to move on immediately, they have to pay deep discount for a partner to do so.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

The Sabes have to bend, buckle and capitulate to the ultimate reality that Eichel is the sole decider of what medical treatment he gets.

The faster that is done and over with and we have an idea of how well he has recovered [presuming that is the case], the faster upgraded packages w/signif pieces can be offered assuming BUF wants to go there.

But unless someone is stupid, no team is gonna pay healthy/no issue top dollar for Eichel when that is not his current and true condition.

If for any reason Sabes want to move on immediately, they have to pay deep discount for a partner to do so.

Well shit, now that you put it that way, Buffalo should absolutely take the pieces that the Rangers see as expendable, just to be done with everything.

And then they can lose those pieces for late 2nds and 3rd liners like they did with Taylor Hall.

 

[Not Sure]

I have to believe that a damaged disc in your neck is a little worse than sore muscles that rest and ice can take care of. Now I'm no doctor but I would think that a damaged disc, and the pain associated with it, is constant. God, I don't even like it when I get the occasional pinched nerve in my neck... heaven forbid I had disc issues, particularly when you think about how often you move your neck.. neck movement constant, even when sleeping.
So no... I don't think pain management at 24 is a viable option and these issues usually seem to get worse as you get older. Fix it now while you are still young and your recuperative powers are at their peak. I say FU to the hockey club who is really only concerned with getting their pound of flesh for the next 5 years while you're under contract.

I'm not saying its better or worse because none of us know the extent of his injury. A herniated disc could cause minor discomfort, or it could be crippling pain. My point was that pro athletes have different levels of pain management, just like the rest of us. Just because he's 24 doesn't mean he's too young for pain management, thats a ridiculous assumption. Just like its ridiculous to assume he will stop being good at hockey, or that surgery will fix everything. The likely scenario is he's going to need pain management the rest of his life regardless of what happens.

Hes a pro athlete in a violent contact sport, none of us will ever know what toll that puts on the body, but I can tell you from first hand knowledge I have spoken to lots of people who have had disc surgery, all of them still have pain afterwards. The successful ones get by with occasional over the counter meds and live with the pain at a minimal level.

 

[nbducksfan19]

Groulx, Jones, Lundestrom, and Steel are all 3/4 line players. That's not a criticism but simply the reality of their roles in the NHL both now and in the future. Colangelo is a mystery box but is several years away from FT NHL duty. Tracey is looking like a very questionable pick right now and is several years away from the NHL...if he makes it at all. Both Thrun and Lacombe look like NHL players of some sort but (again) are several years away.

lol you are putting a ceiling of 3rd/4th line on like 21-22 year olds, not smart.

 

[tomd]

lol you are putting a ceiling of 3rd/4th line on like 21-22 year olds, not smart.

That's what they were projected to be when they were drafted and nothing has really changed to alter that assessment. Except that Steel keeps getting worse.

 

[nbducksfan19]

That's what they were projected to be when they were drafted and nothing has really changed to alter that assessment. Except that Steel keeps getting worse.

Ya that is just not true. I don’t think a single one of them had consistent draft projections of a 3rd/4th line ceiling. They are 1st rounders or high 2nd rounders, you don’t draft guys in those rounds with a bottom 6 ceiling.

 

[tomd]

Ya that is just not true. I don’t think a single one of them had consistent draft projections of a 3rd/4th line ceiling. They are 1st rounders or high 2nd rounders, you don’t draft guys in those rounds with a bottom 6 ceiling.

So which ones do you see filling top six roles for the team in the future? Maybe Jones?

 

[nbducksfan19]

So which ones do you see filling top six roles for the team in the future? Maybe Jones?

I am not sure who will or if any will become solid top 6 players, but I do know that they all have that potential. If I had to rate the likelihood I’d probably go:

1. Max Jones
2. Issac Lunderstrom
3. Sam Steel
4. Groulx

 

[tomd]

Groulx, Jones, Lundestrom, and Steel are all 3/4 line players. am not sure who will or if any will, but I do know that it is silly to dismiss the possibility that t

So it sounds like we agree. They all project as 3/4 line guys. Expecting anything more will lead to disappointment. If one of them outperforms so much the better but it's not likely. Jones and Steel are already 23.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

lol you are putting a ceiling of 3rd/4th line on like 21-22 year olds, not smart.

Ignore him. He wants to acquire Eichel for nothing. He wants the Ducks to take 2% of the risk and Buffalo to take 98% of it.

If the trade could be the Ducks equivalent of (Sabres players and prospects) Biro, Fogarty, Murray, Fitzgerald and Houser, he’d be all over that like a fat kid on cake.

 

[Selanne00008]

There’s also still a possibility Jack is pushing for a surgery that even he would say is not needed to get out of Buffalo.

Not sure how that will look entirely when an interested team wants to look at his records and speak to the agent before the trade is completed.

records could show the surgery as a possible option and then when said team speaks with the agent they simply tell the team yeah we are healthy here and more rehab will be fine. Or the other more conventional surgery will work as well. Being much more open about it than they are to Sabres management.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Ignore him. He wants to acquire Eichel for nothing. He wants the Ducks to take 2% of the risk and Buffalo to take 98% of it.

If the trade could be the Ducks equivalent of (Sabres players and prospects) Biro, Fogarty, Murray, Fitzgerald and Houser, he’d be all over that like a fat kid on cake.

To be fair I’d love to acquire eichel for nothing also

 

[CLW]

People didn't listen to Eichel's rant at the exit interview. Eichel is tired of spinning his wheels on a losing team. He wants to win now. It follows he will not be happy to be traded to a team like Anaheim, where he would again have to wait years for the franchise to put a good team together.

A present day bottom feeder that trades for an unhappy Eichel is asking for (NMC) trouble down the road.

Buffalo obviously is under no obligation to trade him to one of his preferred teams, but what's the point in landing an unhappy Eichel?

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

The Sabes have to bend, buckle and capitulate to the ultimate reality that Eichel is the sole decider of what medical treatment he gets.

The faster that is done and over with and we have an idea of how well he has recovered [presuming that is the case], the faster upgraded packages w/signif pieces can be offered assuming BUF wants to go there.

But unless someone is stupid, no team is gonna pay healthy/no issue top dollar for Eichel when that is not his current and true condition.

If for any reason Sabes want to move on immediately, they have to pay deep discount for a partner to do so.

Ah yes totally agree. Why don't you whip up one of your infamous trade proposals that are universally panned from both sides.

 

[bernmeister]

Well shit, now that you put it that way, Buffalo should absolutely take the pieces that the Rangers see as expendable, just to be done with everything.

And then they can lose those pieces for late 2nds and 3rd liners like they did with Taylor Hall.

If they want to be "done with everything" fine, then they pay to go that way.

I am advocating Eich get the procedure he wants, and we time out until we see how he recovers. Hopefully since there is no reason to root vs him personally, he reverts to close to top form, and then if Sabes still want to deal him, THEN they can demand the appropriate ask.

If they just want no more soap opera, and an immediate deal, Sabes have to take what the real situation is, like it or not.

 

[bernmeister]

Ah yes totally agree. Why don't you whip up one of your infamous trade proposals that are universally panned from both sides.

not applicable, not recommending NYR acquire b'c, every other variable on the shelf, it would be a heavy add to the structural cap of the team, which would not be smart.
We have Panarin -- great!
also Trouba -- about 1.5 overpaid and w/nmc for another 3 ish yrs.

Gotta avoid another big number as a rule, with few exceptions, which does not include ? Eichel.