Post-Game Talk: RZH eats the Devils' brains

[guymez]

I think the two of you are actually more aligned than you think. The difference is that he feels Holland should have stepped up when a perceived opportunity presented itself (Fabbri), but prior to that he was quite understanding of the ****ty situation that Chia left Holland with. You may disagree on timing but I don't think your opinions are THAT far apart.

I also think he's been reservedly upbeat about the team's performance so far this year, but I think his frustration lies in unrealized potential and missed opportunities.

The reason why I believe these things is that I've seen his rhetoric before (granted, anti-Chia rhetoric isn't really rhetoric when it's based in truth), and this isn't that, IMO.

You are entitled to your opinion.

BTW...rhetoric becomes a major problem when there is no judgment involved in terms of the number of repeated messages. Its just the same emotional message pounded home over and over and over again.

At that point it loses its ability to influence and it just becomes extremely annoying.
Its like hearing the same commercial over and over again.

That has been a problem...you are of course entitled to defend that but I am going to suggest that you are wasting your time.

 

[Blindsummit]

Check on Open Table to make a reservation. It’s pretty good food and they do the Oilers radio pregame show from there which is pretty cool. It opens 2 hours before the game with reservations and an hour before for walk ups.

I wont be there pre game for that one but I usually go post game to let the crowds die down before I drive home. I’ll look for ya!

Should be a good game, Dallas seems to have turned it around since the start of the year!

Just booked it, looking forward to it! I'll be hanging around post game so keep an eye out.

We were 25 mins from some sackings then scored six against the Wild and have never looked back. It's like a different team, like a switch was thrown. Hintz and Klinger are injured though so it's going to be tough. Looking forward to the game though.

 

[Mr Positive]

LOL, i highly doubt Holland even does Hall for Neal straight up. Zero chance Holland is gonna blow ANY semblence of significant cash on Hall long term or even short (2-3 yrs). Holland won't give up s*** for Hall, let alone sign him for millions.

I think Holland is ear-marking cap space to re-sign the players he has already, and the plan has to be to avoid new expenses, so I agree.

Although I disagree with the sentiment. If we could fit Hall in, Holland would be all over it imo.

It's just that we have so much dead cap already. Plus we have to re-sign players like Nuge, Bear, Nurse, Larsson, etc in years to come.

 

[nabob]

Nvm I don’t want to get involved in this.

Cheers mate, if you can tell me the wingers that Nuge has been “fussy” about please do enlighten me. @Soundwave seems incapable of doing so, except for pointing out that James Neal is producing at a career best scoring pace while playing with RZH. He just continues to insist that Nuge would be Fussy and a failure of flanked by two legit top line wingers in Rantanen and Landeskog. Granted he wouldn’t be MacKinnon or probably even close, but I’m betting he’d look pretty good.

 

[Cloned]

You are entitled to your opinion.

BTW...rhetoric becomes a major problem when there is no judgment involved in terms of the number of repeated messages. Its just the same emotional message pounded home over and over and over again.

At that point it loses its ability to influence and it just becomes extremely annoying.
Its like hearing the same commercial over and over again.

That has been a problem...you are of course entitled to defend that but I am going to suggest that you are wasting your time.

I just don't agree that this is simply more of his rhetoric. Like I said, I've seen his rhetoric before and this is distinctly different, both in tone and merit.

 

[Cloned]

Cheers mate, if you can tell me the wingers that Nuge has been “fussy” about please do enlighten me. @Soundwave seems incapable of doing so, except for pointing out that James Neal is producing at a career best scoring pace while playing with RZH.

I'm glad RZH is legitimately a thing now.

 

[MaxR11]

I like Neal fine, but that's a stupid mindset.

Neal is good but he's already quite slow and that issue is likely to become more of an issue as he becomes 33/34/35.

If you can parlay Neal's hot start to get a taker from him to accomodate a younger, better player like Hall, that should be strongly considered.

Effectively you'll have traded the crap that was Lucic for a star player in about 9 months, you can't really ask for any more than that.

overall as far as TEAM success is concerned i think Holland would rather have Neal over Hall. Hall makes too many mistakes and doesn't do enough positives to make up for it. He often disengages and brings his teammates down with him. Neal is a vocal leader and injects energy into the team. His vet leadership is way more valuable than hall's sag.... these things affect the team as a WHOLE. it affects many or all players on the team. Neal is a smarter player than Hall, handles the puck better/smarter especially in close quarters and on the pp. all these things affect chemistry of your team and linemates. you have to stop looking at it as strictly player A vs player B.

 

[Cloned]

No you were doing a great job lol, just wanted to be clear about the Fabbri thing in particular, I wasn't parroting that. Though he looked awfully good in that Detroit game.

Yeah I guess I just assumed based on your general argument that Fabbri might have been a opportunity that you saw as being missed.

 

[nabob]

I'm glad RZH is legitimately a thing now.

It’s great, much better than Rice Noodles or whatever LTIR was trying to call him.

 

[Soundwave]

I think Holland is ear-marking cap space to re-sign the players he has already, and the plan has to be to avoid new expenses, so I agree.

Although I disagree with the sentiment. If we could fit Hall in, Holland would be all over it imo.

It's just that we have so much dead cap already. Plus we have to re-sign players like Nuge, Bear, Nurse, Larsson, etc in years to come.

Actually I think the plan he has was to spend big money on a winger this coming summer.

That's why he didn't spend on Gustav Nyquist or players like that last summer who wanted term. Even though probably that player would be helping us right now.

He's going big fish hunting next summer, the thing is we thought maybe a Hoffman would be available, not a Taylor Hall in season.

 

[nabob]

I like Neal fine, but that's a stupid mindset.

Neal is good but he's already quite slow and that issue is likely to become more of an issue as he becomes 33/34/35.

If you can parlay Neal's hot start to get a taker from him to accomodate a younger, better player like Hall, that should be strongly considered.

Effectively you'll have traded the crap that was Lucic for a star player in about 9 months, you can't really ask for any more than that.

wait weren’t you just telling me that Neal has been an amazing upgrade to our winger depth for Nuge? Now he’s old and slow and you want to get rid of him?

 

[Soundwave]

Yeah I guess I just assumed based on your general argument that Fabbri might have been a opportunity that you saw as being missed.

And that may be a missed opportunity. I'm not going to kill the guy over that. *That said* if it becomes like 3 or 4 players come and go that the Oilers could've acquired for a reasonable price that other teams got to instead ... then OK, I think it's fair for some people to question what's going on.

 

[Cloned]

Actually I think the plan he has was to spend big money on a winger this coming summer.

That's why he didn't spend on Gustav Nyquist or players like that last summer who wanted term. Even though probably that player would be helping us right now.

He's going big fish hunting next summer, the thing is we thought maybe a Hoffman would be available, not a Taylor Hall in season.

Yeah, he's quite clearly trying to clear cap for this coming summer. Honestly I think he might go after Logan Couture.

 

[Soundwave]

wait weren’t you just telling me that Neal has been an amazing upgrade to our winger depth for Nuge? Now he’s old and slow and you want to get rid of him?

He's been great.

That said you can't build a team without looking at the big picture. He's 32 going on 33. That's not the age range this core needs when they're hopefully competing for something 2-3 years down the line, by then he will be old and probably washed.

I like him.

But if you can basically turn a steaming pile of crap that was Lucic into Taylor Hall ... I'm inclined to lean towards you do that every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

There's no room for sentimentality in this business.

 

[Mr Positive]

Actually I think the plan he has was to spend big money on a winger this coming summer.

That's why he didn't spend on Gustav Nyquist or players like that last summer who wanted term. Even though probably that player would be helping us right now.

He's going big fish hunting next summer, the thing is we thought maybe a Hoffman would be available, not a Taylor Hall in season.

Holland didn't have any cap space for anything this summer. He bought out Sekera just so he could sign a few cheap bottom sixers, and have room for Smith and his bonus

 

[Cloned]

It’s great, much better than Rice Noodles or whatever LTIR was trying to call him.

I have to give more credit to @Wen22 here. Whipping up that drawing in 90 minutes after the game ended is pretty incredible. Lots of talent there, I hope he finds a job that pays well in that area.

 

[Soundwave]

Holland didn't have any cap space for anything this summer. He bought out Sekera just so he could sign a few cheap bottom sixers, and have room for Smith and his bonus

If he really wanted to he probably could've dumped Gagner on the Senators for a mid-pick and signed say Nyquist.

He specifically said they looked at players like Simmonds and Nyquist, the Nyquist bit was a no go because of term, not cap hit. Simmonds they offered the same deal as NJ (1 year) but he choose them over us.

He doesn't want term on players, because he is looking to this summer where the Oilers could spend 7-8 million+ on a winger.

This is actually smart, this is NBA style cap planning which is one reason I gave Holland some rope, he understands the concept of cap term and expiring deals which seems to be lost on some GMs.

 

[MaxR11]

I think Holland is ear-marking cap space to re-sign the players he has already, and the plan has to be to avoid new expenses, so I agree.

Although I disagree with the sentiment. If we could fit Hall in, Holland would be all over it imo.

It's just that we have so much dead cap already. Plus we have to re-sign players like Nuge, Bear, Nurse, Larsson, etc in years to come.

it wouldn't surprise me if he traded Nuge and or Nurse depending on what they might ask to resign for. He's heavily evaluating what he has now. he'll be patient though i think.

i don't think hall fits what holland envisions in a player. he likes someone who works hard and grinds through tough times (not sag). as one article stated, holland is a strong believer in culture.

 

[nabob]

He's been great.

That said you can't build a team without looking at the big picture. He's 32 going on 33. That's not the age range this core needs when they're hopefully competing for something 2-3 years down the line, by then he will be old and probably washed.

I like him.

But if you can basically turn a steaming pile of crap that was Lucic into Taylor Hall ... I'm inclined to lean towards you do that every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

There's no room for sentimentality in this business.

but unfortunately it’s the NHL not NHL19.

Neal just went from being a player who could only be dealt for the worst player/contract in the league to being possibly worth something while showing good chemistry with Nuge, Connor and Leon. Don’t think that’s something you look to disrupt

 

[Mr Positive]

If he really wanted to he probably could've dumped Gagner on the Senators for a mid-pick and signed say Nyquist.

He specifically said they looked at players like Simmonds and Nyquist, the Nyquist bit was a no go because of term, not cap hit. Simmonds they offered the same deal as NJ (1 year) but he choose them over us.

He doesn't want term on players, because he is looking to this summer where the Oilers could spend 7-8 million+ on a winger.

This is actually smart, this is NBA style cap planning which is one reason I gave Holland some rope, he understands the concept of cap term and expiring deals which seems to be lost on some GMs.

well, I hope you are right, especially if our D is solved by Bear, and with other young D developing and contributing in the coming years.

I definitely agree on term. The Oilers do NOT want to add term, especially Holland since he really doesn't know what the team truly is yet, even now. That's partly why he added so many bottom sixers, just to try out lots of things.

One thing I'd look for this season, or this summer, is to trade Kris Russell. If we pick to go with Larsson, and bring in young D, there's some cap space for that winger.

 

[nabob]

Holland didn't have any cap space for anything this summer. He bought out Sekera just so he could sign a few cheap bottom sixers, and have room for Smith and his bonus

Yeah I think his signing of Smith and the way the contract is set up gets underrated a lot. He took a pile that had Lucic and no cap room a build a pretty good team.

 

[Mr Positive]

it wouldn't surprise me if he traded Nuge and or Nurse depending on what they might ask to resign for. He's heavily evaluating what he has now. he'll be patient though i think.

i don't think hall fits what holland envisions in a player. he likes someone who works hard and grinds through tough times (not sag). as one article stated, holland is a strong believer in culture.

Not sure on Hall, although imo GMs do NOT want to add a player with previous history.

We fantasize about Hall because we know him. That's kind of like how we wanted Hemsky back. What other winger options are there?

 

[Soundwave]

but unfortunately it’s the NHL not NHL19.

Neal just went from being a player who could only be dealt for the worst player/contract in the league to being possibly worth something while showing good chemistry with Nuge, Connor and Leon. Don’t think that’s something you look to disrupt

That's the crux of being a GM, sometimes you have to be ruthless. His chemistry with RNH is not really that great, which I put more on RNH.

I don't give a crap about trading anyone to be honest if it leads to a better player coming back. For Connor/Leon they don't have to worry about that because no one's better than McDavid and there's only like 2 players I might entertain on Draisaitl.

 

[guymez]

I just don't agree that this is simply more of his rhetoric. Like I said, I've seen his rhetoric before and this is distinctly different, both in tone and merit.

Well...I'll let this go because there really isnt anywhere we can take it but when you dig down a little bit the core of the complaining reveals itself.

As I said...my position is that Holland needs some time and if I see what i think is an opportunity it doesnt mean that not acting on it is a fail. Thats the difference between myself and Soundwave.

My point about being positive and closing the book on the past GM's mess influencing opinions on this GM was also dismissed based on the work Holland has done so far in his short 5 months on the job with a cap strapped team.

Anyway...you got your wish...

You can feel optimistic but only if the new GM is going to seize on actual opportunities when they are staring him square in the face.

I don't think any GM operates under the luxury of looking off options and waiting and seeing on everything.

Again that whole mindset is wrong to begin, the GM is not some freaking "king" that you are a subject to and must pledge your loyalty to or something.

They are here to do a job. So get on it. Pronto.

There is no "lets feel our way into this", because major mistakes that have massive repercussions years onwards can be made with that kind of attitude.

I'm sure Chiarelli will say now he didn't see how big of a deal the Reinhart-no.16 swap was, he was just "getting his feet wet". Just getting into the groove. Well that's not a luxury an NHL GM has. You have to be on point from day 1, minute 1.


I am by the way and have said I am willing to give Holland a chance. And I am. But I am not willing to give mediocrity or stupidity a chance. The Neal Lucic trade was a good one and I've given him praise for that. Now go make another good acquisition. And after that? Another one.

This last post contradicts itself and again lives on the premise that if Holland doesnt do what the enlightened poster (who apparently according to him strongly understands the cap and also the advanced stats more than the average fan) thinks is right then it means that Holland is failing.

So basically if Holland doesnt do what the enlightened poster thinks he should do then there is no reason to feel optimistic.

Speaks for itself really.

 

[Soundwave]

well, I hope you are right, especially if our D is solved by Bear, and with other young D developing and contributing in the coming years.

I definitely agree on term. The Oilers do NOT want to add term, especially Holland since he really doesn't know what the team truly is yet, even now. That's partly why he added so many bottom sixers, just to try out lots of things.

One thing I'd look for this season, or this summer, is to trade Kris Russell. If we pick to go with Larsson, and bring in young D, there's some cap space for that winger.

I'm honestly not that opposed to the idea of losing both Russell and Larsson so long as one of the two is here for the duration of this year.

If that's the cap space you need to move to dramatically alter the top 6 and make the team a true offensive power house, so be it.

Caleb Jones and Evan Bouchard are going to be chomping at the bit and quite honestly Matt Benning is decent where he is too. With Klefbom, Bear, Persson, and Nurse presumably staying, there's not enough spots for everyone anyway.