Confirmed with Link: Ryan O'Reilly traded to STL for Tage Thompson, Patrik Berglund, Vladimir Sobotka, 2019 1st, 2021 2nd

[Jim Bob]

I think Botterill thinks our defense is in better shape currently than most here. I think he was looking for quantity of futures all along.

People are calling 1st round picks “underwhelming” which is hilarious. Reiger and Murray’s use of 1sts really took a toll on people.

Lottery protected 1sts from teams that are likely to make the playoffs aren't Earth shattering assets depending on the depth of the draft that they are in and the job that the scouting staff does.

 

[Icicle]

Lottery protected 1sts from teams that are likely to make the playoffs aren't Earth shattering assets depending on the depth of the draft that they are in and the job that the scouting staff does.

They aren't when you waste them on Lehners.

We'd absolutely love to have some of the mid-to-late 1sts from:

2015 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

2014 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

His holiness was a 15OA afterall.

 

[valet]

​

not to disagree and no way for us to know, but if we paid the bonus I wonder if ROR + 2nd + 4th for Parayko and Sobotka would have been possible.

that would mean essentially trading blues 1st + our 2nd + our 4th + Thompson + Berglund for Parayko.

it's a good question. i guess we'll never know, but my instincts say that paryako just wasn't going to get moved. their d instantly gets worse by trading him. nothing would have gotten him here short of offering up ror + risto

maybe it could have been ror + risto = parayko + berglund + sobotka + 2nd + maybe a b-list prospect?

but that even sounds insane to me on our end, we don't get the futures and all we really get long-term is parayko

 

[Jim Bob]

They aren't when you waste them on Lehners.

We'd absolutely love to have some of the mid-to-late 1sts from:

2015 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

2014 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

His holiness was a 15OA afterall.

While there are some hits, there are also swings and misses.

Having picks only matter if you use them to acquire the right players.

 

[Aladyyn]

While there are some hits, there are also swings and misses.

Having picks only matter if you use them to acquire the right players.

Acquiring the right players only matters if you can develop them.

 

[Doohickie]

Acquiring the right players only matters if you can develop them.

Developing players only matters if you have a decent system to plug them into.

 

[brian_griffin]

Developing players only matters if you have a decent system to plug them into.

Decent system only matters if the coach has a clue.

 

[haseoke39]

Decent system only matters if the coach has a clue.

The coach having a clue only matters if he has the right players.

 

[Doohickie]

...and thus perpetuates the recursion.

 

[slip]

The coach having a clue only matters if he has the right players.

"Hey, lets get faster to implement our system."

Gets Hunwick, Sobotka, Berglund, and Thompson, doesn't buy out Pominville.

Watch what they do, not what they say.

 

[jc17]

"Hey, lets get faster to implement our system."

Gets Hunwick, Sobotka, Berglund, and Thompson, doesn't buy out Pominville.

Watch what they do, not what they say.

Buying out pominville with a year left doesn't seem real beneficial when we aren't troubled for cap room.

 

[darcyRegier]

I don't think Pominville makes the team anyways

 

[explore]

Definitely not implying that you're doing this here, but without question, if Jack stays healthy for the first time since his rookie year and gets consistent wing play from Sam and Sheary or whatever, he'll put up his 85 point breakout season and it'll be completely independent and irrelevant of, and yet forever tied to, the lack of ROR existing in the locker room as a moody vegan, for some reason.

No, that was not the argument I was making. Eichel was on pace for those points the last two years on his own.

My point was not having ROR as a crutch for tough defensive assignments (hopefully/optimistically) forces Eichel, et al. to develop into more complete players.

we kept eichel and didn't sign tavares, so that 11 mil we were spending on tavares can be used to pay eichel and now eichel's salary is a negative number. we subracted tavares' long term salary and added eichel's

lol i just think it's an odd way to look at it when it's better to just look at the players involved. we get deeper and added vets that can help now while further stocking up on assets.

let's compare the miller/ott trade with the RoR trade.

miller/ott = halak, stewart, carrier, 1st, 3rd

ror = berglund, sobotka, thompson, 1st, 2nd

the ror trade is better without a doubt, even if you want to say that halak/stewart = berglund/sobotka. we get a higher pick, better prospect, and a 2nd vs a 3rd. the salaries were a wash in both deals.

for posterity's sake we can also look at the deal that brought ror to buffalo:

ror = zads, grigorenko, compher, 2nd

about equal to what we got for him from st. lous imo, perhaps we even swinging towards the st. louis trade side

seriously, what were people expecting ror to fetch? paryako + futures? paryako alone would be worth more than RoR considering term, AAV, and the difficulty of having a young top pair d floating around

I stopped reading after the bolded because you missed a fundamental aspect of why your argument is irrational: ROR was a signed Sabres player. Berglund was a signed Blues player. They were exchanged for each other (among other pieces), and both are the only players in the trade signed for an extended period of time.

John Tavares was never on the Sabres, nor was he traded to the Sabres. You fundamentally don’t understand the argument being made.

 

[valet]

No, that was not the argument I was making. Eichel was on pace for those points the last two years on his own.

My point was not having ROR as a crutch for tough defensive assignments (hopefully/optimistically) forces Eichel, et al. to develop into more complete players.




I stopped reading after the bolded because you missed a fundamental aspect of why your argument is irrational: ROR was a signed Sabres player. Berglund was a signed Blues player. They were exchanged for each other (among other pieces), and both are the only players in the trade signed for an extended period of time.

John Tavares was never on the Sabres, nor was he traded to the Sabres. You fundamentally don’t understand the argument being made.

I understand your argument, I just don't don't understand why of all things you choose the cap to justify your opinion on the players... the cap is a factor but looking at our cap situation we're not exactly struggling. It's better to just evaluate the players

If you don't like the players we got back it's ok to just say that, you don't need to come out with these extravagant cap arguments to justify your beliefs, especially since we're not really gonna be up against the cap in a way that affects us in the long-term over the next several years

It would also help if you actually approached my opinion with some sincerity instead of just saying I don't understand yours... Not exactly a becoming way to discuss how each of us feels about the pieces involved in the trade

 

[WeDislikeEich]

John Vogl touched on ROR’s locker room presence today, among numerous other things -

Chat recap: John Vogl answers your Sabres questions

John Vogl
12h ago
@Kevin P. Hello, Kevin. Ryan was too quick to get down on himself, even after a decent game. Anyone who had youthful exuberance would see the alternate captain all gloomy and just follow suit. I have no doubt that handing the reins to other people (see Jack Eichel) will increase the confidence level and fun factor for guys.
I wouldn't say Ristolainen is hard to coach, but he definitely hasn't embraced being a go-to guy. I understand "it's just practice," especially for someone who can play 28 minutes a night, but he's almost always one of the first off the ice and one of the first out of the building. He would help the team more by hanging out with teammates on and off the ice. There just seems to be no accountability for a guy who has lost his whole career, and other players see that.

 

[WeDislikeEich]

Vogl seems to be big on this locker room being improved and that it’s something that really needed to happen -

John Vogl
12h ago
@Andrew B. Hey there, Andrew. I am firmly in the "Sabres improved themselves" camp. I think they can fill the holes left by O'Reilly and improve the overall attitude of the team, which will make a difference.

John Vogl
12h ago
@Joe T. I've alluded to this in other answers, but it bears repeating: The locker room will be a better, happier place. Chemistry and culture have become mere buzzwords to many, but I believe it will translate on the ice this year.
I said below it's a stretch to call them a playoff contender, but they should definitely leave the bottom behind

1

 

[ceky]

........
maybe it could have been ror + risto = parayko + berglund + sobotka + 2nd + maybe a b-list prospect?

but that even sounds insane to me on our end, we don't get the futures and all we really get long-term is parayko

I thought NO WAY! till reading further down about risto. Maybe because I did not watch many full sabres games recently I'm still stuck in ~2015 with him. Still, I would love to get competitive again with our "own" players as the core (still hate that we traded myers for the same reason).

 

[Dreakon13]

John Vogl touched on ROR’s locker room presence today, among numerous other things -

Chat recap: John Vogl answers your Sabres questions

John Vogl
12h ago
@Kevin P. Hello, Kevin. Ryan was too quick to get down on himself, even after a decent game. Anyone who had youthful exuberance would see the alternate captain all gloomy and just follow suit. I have no doubt that handing the reins to other people (see Jack Eichel) will increase the confidence level and fun factor for guys.
I wouldn't say Ristolainen is hard to coach, but he definitely hasn't embraced being a go-to guy. I understand "it's just practice," especially for someone who can play 28 minutes a night, but he's almost always one of the first off the ice and one of the first out of the building. He would help the team more by hanging out with teammates on and off the ice. There just seems to be no accountability for a guy who has lost his whole career, and other players see that.

Vogl seems to be big on this locker room being improved and that it’s something that really needed to happen -

John Vogl
12h ago
@Andrew B. Hey there, Andrew. I am firmly in the "Sabres improved themselves" camp. I think they can fill the holes left by O'Reilly and improve the overall attitude of the team, which will make a difference.

John Vogl
12h ago
@Joe T. I've alluded to this in other answers, but it bears repeating: The locker room will be a better, happier place. Chemistry and culture have become mere buzzwords to many, but I believe it will translate on the ice this year.
I said below it's a stretch to call them a playoff contender, but they should definitely leave the bottom behind

Thanks for posting this, interesting takes from Vogl.

I've generally been in the 'the locker room sucks and is one of the most important things to fix this offseason' camp, even if it came at the expense of losing a guy like ROR, so this all sounds right to me. Especially parts about ROR being a bit too hard on himself, and the effect a high profile alt captain and vet on the team sulking like that can have on the fun and exuberance in the room. Hard work is a good thing but fun breeds creativity and confidence, two things this team has been sorely lacking.

I believe the Risto thing too. Hopefully he meant what he said in his locker cleanout interview about wanting to step up and be more of a leader on the team, and hopefully that translates to spending that extra time on the ice between games and having that rub off on his teammates.

 

[brian_griffin]

I don't think Pominville makes the team anyways

He has a no movement clause. He can't be sent down without his consent.

 

[darcyRegier]

He has a no movement clause. He can't be sent down without his consent.

I was unaware of that, 13th forward maybe? He'll be battling Wilson/Larsson and 1 or 2 Roch guys for a spot, and I don't see him winning that.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Vogl carrying company water? Shocking.

 

[Jim Bob]

Thanks for posting this, interesting takes from Vogl.

I've generally been in the 'the locker room sucks and is one of the most important things to fix this offseason' camp, even if it came at the expense of losing a guy like ROR, so this all sounds right to me. Especially parts about ROR being a bit too hard on himself, and the effect a high profile alt captain and vet on the team sulking like that can have on the fun and exuberance in the room. Hard work is a good thing but fun breeds creativity and confidence, two things this team has been sorely lacking.

I believe the Risto thing too. Hopefully he meant what he said in his locker cleanout interview about wanting to step up and be more of a leader on the team, and hopefully that translates to spending that extra time on the ice between games and having that rub off on his teammates.

Tell that to Bill Belichick.

Any "culture" can work.

Time will tell if removing O'Reilly from the locker room improves things on the ice. I hope it does.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

John Vogl touched on ROR’s locker room presence today, among numerous other things -

Chat recap: John Vogl answers your Sabres questions

John Vogl
12h ago
@Kevin P. Hello, Kevin. Ryan was too quick to get down on himself, even after a decent game. Anyone who had youthful exuberance would see the alternate captain all gloomy and just follow suit. I have no doubt that handing the reins to other people (see Jack Eichel) will increase the confidence level and fun factor for guys.
I wouldn't say Ristolainen is hard to coach, but he definitely hasn't embraced being a go-to guy. I understand "it's just practice," especially for someone who can play 28 minutes a night, but he's almost always one of the first off the ice and one of the first out of the building. He would help the team more by hanging out with teammates on and off the ice. There just seems to be no accountability for a guy who has lost his whole career, and other players see that.

So... the players most damaged by the incompetence of their coaches are the prickliest?

 

[Jim Bob]

So... the players most damaged by the incompetence of their coaches are the prickliest?

I hope Vogl talks about players needing to be held accountable for a while.

It's all about having fun!

Who has the orange slices and Capri Suns for after the game?

 

[joshjull]

"Hey, lets get faster to implement our system."

Gets Hunwick, Sobotka, Berglund, and Thompson, doesn't buy out Pominville.

Watch what they do, not what they say.

How about “watch everything they do” not just “look at these cherrypicked examples” so you can complain.

They’ve also added Mitts, Sheary, Wilson, Oglevie, Pilut and Hickey. They’re getting an enormous influx of young, fast talented players coming this season.

Most of the deadweight falls away the next two years. Our cap situation is pretty wide open when Mitts’ ELC expires in two seasons. We currently only have 6 guys under contract at that point.

They’re not where they need to be yet but are well on their way.