Ryan Kesler

[vanuck]

Our problem with "secondary scoring" is that for it to just be a 'problem' and not an outright disaster Kesler has to play like a second liner with "elite status" - you are attributing our issues with secondary scoring to our third best forward when the problem lies with the fifth, sixth, seventh guys, the defense, and yes Kesler himself.

But IMO people get way too wrapped up in Kesler's style of play and assume he can't be part of a productive line even when the facts don't support that claim.

We've seen here that Kesler can rack up 50 assists in a season (34 at ES, good for 13th in the league among forwards) and people will still complain about his vision or his ability to use his linemates. We've seen that scoring the second or third most goals on the team, let's say 25 or thereabouts, with a tough defensive assignment is a ho hum kind of year by many posters standards.

The fact is that for this team to have adequate secondary scoring they have to have depth guys beyond Daniel, Henrik, Alex and Ryan that can combine to put up a goal or so a game.. sometimes more. That hasn't been the case here for years and you can't pin that on Kesler, even if he clearly needs to work some serious kinks out this year now that his is - apparently? - finally healthy.

A well-reasoned post. Outside of injuries, the lack of depth scoring has probably been the biggest problem with this team.

 

[Win One Before I Die]

The lack of a true playmaker on the second line is the problem. Maybe that can be Burrows.

 

[dave babych returns]

The lack of a true playmaker on the second line is the problem. Maybe that can be Burrows.

I really bristle at the notion that Kesler is not a sufficiently effective top six player because he isn't a field general like Joe Thornton or Henrik Sedin who picks apart a defense with precision passing.. he sure isn't but that doesn't mean he a. can't rack up assists b. doesn't make his teammates better c. can't center a top six line one way or the other.

That being said, both Kesler and Booth are guys who drive the play in the right direction without necessarily distributing the puck that well so a third linemate who does that adds another dimension to the line in the way that say Chris Higgins does not.

I think Burrows and Kassian (if he's taken another step forward) could each contribute a bit of vision and intelligent puck movement to Kesler's line, especially since neither needs to play with the puck on their stick to be effective.

For me I think the best bet for this team is to either give Kesler one of those two as a linemate, or to skate Booth, Kassian and another center as the "third" line and give Kesler guys like Higgins and Hansen with really tough minutes to create mismatches.

 

[Alflives*]

I really bristle at the notion that Kesler is not a sufficiently effective top six player because he isn't a field general like Joe Thornton or Henrik Sedin who picks apart a defense with precision passing.. he sure isn't but that doesn't mean he a. can't rack up assists b. doesn't make his teammates better c. can't center a top six line one way or the other.

That being said, both Kesler and Booth are guys who drive the play in the right direction without necessarily distributing the puck that well so a third linemate who does that adds another dimension to the line in the way that say Chris Higgins does not.

I think Burrows and Kassian (if he's taken another step forward) could each contribute a bit of vision and intelligent puck movement to Kesler's line, especially since neither needs to play with the puck on their stick to be effective.

For me I think the best bet for this team is to either give Kesler one of those two as a linemate, or to skate Booth, Kassian and another center as the "third" line and give Kesler guys like Higgins and Hansen with really tough minutes to create mismatches.

What about Daniel Sedin on the line with Kesler and Booth? Your description of Kesler's game is excellent. He's a straight line, 200 foot player, who (must be) a pain in the a#s to play against.

 

[ShouldveDraftedFiala]

The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see the Sedins split up on a more permanent basis for 5 on 5s. I'd like to see a bigger sample size on how it would work out and think it should be instrumental for the coaches to learn how it works out before heading into the playoffs when the Sedin cycle will get shut down hard. Having them split will make for 2 great top lines, instead of our current #1 and what appears to be a veteran #3 line as our #2 currently. Of course they'd still play together on the PP and 4 on 4s.

Booth Henrik Kassian
Daniel Kesler Burrows
Higgens Santo Hansen

 

[dave babych returns]

re: Kesler and Daniel - feh, yeah whatever. From time to time.

I guess my point is that Kesler and a couple of wingers (Sedin, Burrows, Booth, Hansen, Higgins, Kassian) is a top six line whether it fits the prototype people have in mind or not. It doesn't need fixing although obviously his current play is not where the team needs it to be when the games get really important.

It doesn't need "fixing" (unless what we've seen from him the last few games is the new normal) because we already have a few potential linemates for him that play a headier offensive game, we just need a healthy lineup and another center so that we can spread out our attack more. Blaming Kesler because we don't have two first lines is misguided.

 

[CherryToke]

I really bristle at the notion that Kesler is not a sufficiently effective top six player because he isn't a field general like Joe Thornton or Henrik Sedin who picks apart a defense with precision passing.. he sure isn't but that doesn't mean he a. can't rack up assists b. doesn't make his teammates better c. can't center a top six line one way or the other.

That being said, both Kesler and Booth are guys who drive the play in the right direction without necessarily distributing the puck that well so a third linemate who does that adds another dimension to the line in the way that say Chris Higgins does not.

I think Burrows and Kassian (if he's taken another step forward) could each contribute a bit of vision and intelligent puck movement to Kesler's line, especially since neither needs to play with the puck on their stick to be effective.

For me I think the best bet for this team is to either give Kesler one of those two as a linemate, or to skate Booth, Kassian and another center as the "third" line and give Kesler guys like Higgins and Hansen with really tough minutes to create mismatches.

they need someone with vision who can slow the play down when they get in the offensive zone, along the half wall or behind the net. I'm not sure Kassian or Burrows can do that. Maybe Schroeder? better yet, bring in someone more established.

 

[shortshorts]

Meh most successful teams have that.

Chicago: Hossa and Sharp
LA: Carter
Bos: Eriksson (You could even make an argument for Marchand)
SJ: Marleau
Pit: Neal


Vancouver needs another top winger if they want to contend. Man Carter would have been perfect.

How many of those teams spend as much on defense as we do?

Look, I agree that if our cap structure allowed it, it'd be beneficial to add a high quality player to our top 6. I've already mentioned it in the armchair GM thread that we need to relocate one of our 4.6$million D to a top 6 forward.

However, we don't have the assets to do so. Management clearly believes that Kesler can, and should make our secondary offense go. I think this is a critical error on management.

 

[alternate]

The Sedins apart are great players but together they are elite. Doesn't make any sense to seperate them on anything more than a shot-in-the-arm basis.

 

[Wetcoaster]

I hope Kesler can find his game I haven't been that impressed lately.

Tortorella disagrees.

He sees Kesler doing the things he is being asked to do and the points will come as long as he plays the right way.

 

[Wetcoaster]

The lack of a true playmaker on the second line is the problem. Maybe that can be Burrows.

Kassian looks to be a better fit as play making winger who can crash the net on shots from Kesler and Booth.

 

[LiquidSnake]

Kassian looks to be a better fit as play making winger who can crash the net on shots from Kesler and Booth.

He simply needs to be able to play through his mistakes and learn from them. Something that hasnt really happened with this team considering they've been in a position to contend for a while now.

I think the Sedins and Kesler actually benefitted greatly from playing on non playoff teams and still being able to get good minutes to get better.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The Sedins apart are great players but together they are elite. Doesn't make any sense to seperate them on anything more than a shot-in-the-arm basis.

I disagree. The Sedins are elite together, but its about the net effect to the team. Daniel will raise Kesler's game. Does that benefit the team more overall? Perhaps. It will also answer some questions about what Kesler needs and the Sedins' effectiveness apart.

For the bigger picture, the gameplan should be to implement alternate strategies. So when match ups become difficult, going to this formation provides the team with a different look that may provide an advantage. Tactically, it makes sense to find out what we have here.

 

[Seatoo]

If I could have a playmaking winger for Kesler it'd be PAP or Purcell, I was and am very upset that we didn't sign PAP a couple years ago when he was a UFA

 

[Bleach Clean]

If I could have a playmaking winger for Kesler it'd be PAP or Purcell, I was and am very upset that we didn't sign PAP a couple years ago when he was a UFA

Parenteau would have been the guy to target. There was some risk considering he was a late bloomer, but if they were comfortable with that risk for Garrison, I'm not sure why they wouldn't be with PAP. That was a lost opportunity, although it would have been interesting to see what they would do this year to get under the cap.

 

[dave babych returns]

We had Booth by then. Not much room to maneuver, and respectfully I don't think guys like PAP or Alex Tanguay (whose name I've also seen mentioned in these sorts of discussions, also I can't type his last name without first typing "Tanguary") are the types of players to deviate off course to accomodate.

 

[Bleach Clean]

We had Booth by then. Not much room to maneuver, and respectfully I don't think guys like PAP or Alex Tanguay (whose name I've also seen mentioned in these sorts of discussions, also I can't type his last name without first typing "Tanguary") are the types of players to deviate off course to accomodate.

Tanguay, yes. No reason to deviate for him. Parenteau, not so sure. On the surface, he would have made a very good fit for Kesler... if finding a pure playmaker was the real problem with the 2nd line (I hesitate to say that it is, actually).

 

[Alflives*]

I disagree. The Sedins are elite together, but its about the net effect to the team. Daniel will raise Kesler's game. Does that benefit the team more overall? Perhaps. It will also answer some questions about what Kesler needs and the Sedins' effectiveness apart.

For the bigger picture, the gameplan should be to implement alternate strategies. So when match ups become difficult, going to this formation provides the team with a different look that may provide an advantage. Tactically, it makes sense to find out what we have here.

Perhaps having Kesler with Daniel would raise Daniel's engagement in physical play, while providing skill to Kesler's line?

 

[ddawg1950]

Kassian looks to be a better fit as play making winger who can crash the net on shots from Kesler and Booth.

Wouldn't be surprised to see that this weekend.

 

[Mathew Barzal]

Kassian looks to be a better fit as play making winger who can crash the net on shots from Kesler and Booth.

agreed.

Kassian - Kesler - Burrows

Making me drool.

 

[alternate]

I disagree. The Sedins are elite together, but its about the net effect to the team. Daniel will raise Kesler's game. Does that benefit the team more overall? Perhaps. It will also answer some questions about what Kesler needs and the Sedins' effectiveness apart.

For the bigger picture, the gameplan should be to implement alternate strategies. So when match ups become difficult, going to this formation provides the team with a different look that may provide an advantage. Tactically, it makes sense to find out what we have here.

I'm not sure there's a net benefit to be had here. Who ever you replace Daniel with on Hanks line is going to be a downgrade simply based on Daniel being our best winger. Then add the chemistry the Twins have that neither new pairing/line will have (in all probability) and you've made Hanks line worse simply to try and get Kesler going. That second pairing (Daniel-Kesler) has to come close to the level of Daniel-Hank just to break even after you've made the first line worse.

I don't think there are questions at this point on the Sedins' effectiveness apart...Hank won some major hardware the season Daniel missed a chunk with injury. Even if there's still questions, I say who cares? If both are healthy, there's no need to find out how effective they are apart. Further, you make this a long term adjustment, you lose the biggest advantage--surprise. I like the idea of splitting them up here and there when we need a spark, or against a team with an elite 5 man shut down unit. But I'd be shocked and disappointed if it became a temporarily permanant change that continued over multiple games.

I still maintain the best thing to do with Kesler is give him Burrows and Hansen and get him on the ice vs the other teams top line as often as possible.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I'm not sure there's a net benefit to be had here. Who ever you replace Daniel with on Hanks line is going to be a downgrade simply based on Daniel being our best winger. Then add the chemistry the Twins have that neither new pairing/line will have (in all probability) and you've made Hanks line worse simply to try and get Kesler going. That second pairing (Daniel-Kesler) has to come close to the level of Daniel-Hank just to break even after you've made the first line worse.

Not exactly. Daniel remains the best winger on the team, even if he moves down to Kesler's line. Not net change there. The real change is the "extra" chemistry between the twins being weighted against the potential increase in a Daniel-Kesler pairing.

I believe that a more significant increase is in store from raising Kesler's 28 ES points last year, than there is with the extra points based on chemistry between the twins. There's more room to improve. The first line gets worse, but the 2nd line gets much better. Then there's the point about the twins being too focused on passing to one another, losing their efficiency to create shots (Torts refers to this as being "too cute), and maybe they do need a change of pace... To think about the game differently.

SJ did this by splitting up the Marleau-Thornton combo. CHI did this by splitting up Toews and Kane to fit Hossa on the top line, and vice versa. Doing this with the twins only makes this team more versatile IMO.

I don't think there are questions at this point on the Sedins' effectiveness apart...Hank won some major hardware the season Daniel missed a chunk with injury. Even if there's still questions, I say who cares? If both are healthy, there's no need to find out how effective they are apart. Further, you make this a long term adjustment, you lose the biggest advantage--surprise. I like the idea of splitting them up here and there when we need a spark, or against a team with an elite 5 man shut down unit. But I'd be shocked and disappointed if it became a temporarily permanant change that continued over multiple games.

I still maintain the best thing to do with Kesler is give him Burrows and Hansen and get him on the ice vs the other teams top line as often as possible.

The biggest advantage is versatility. The problem with the "surprise" angle is that it's a surprise to Kesler too, when they try to do this on the fly -- Like using it as a wildcard in the playoffs should things not be going well. No, I'm much more an advocate of them ironing out the kinks in the regular season.

Right now, I'm hoping Torts goes the road less travelled and splits them up. Too long this team's offense has been reduced to 1 line, or 4 players. It's time to get some redundancy. Time to create two solid lines. They won't beat a team like SJ, who can role Thornton, Hertl, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski and Burns in their top6, if they don't first address their depth. One line, the Sedin line, isn't going to do it.

 

[vanuck]

Yeah, on paper Daniel is a very good fit alongside Kesler as well given his own playmaking abilities. If splitting them up forces Henrik to shoot more then I'm all for it. They're both great offensive players in their own right and I have full confidence they can make other players better by themselves too.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

I would be happy with Daniel on Kesler's wing and Hank driving his own line again, I think that gives us two extremely deadly lines - and Kes and Danny have great chemiry on the PP usually.

 

[David71]

tanguay would have been a perfect playmaker for kesler imo. but hes in colorado. i agree about splitting up the twins. hank can play without his brother he can focus on shooting more.