Ryan Kesler

[Outside99*]

Finding another player you have great synergy with is rare; Kesler and Burrows had that at one point; we even saw flashes of it during the pre-season (though that probably doesn't mean much).

If Torts re-unites them, good things will happen I believe. Weakens the Sedin line perhaps but will strengthen the team overall.

Its also much easier to integrate a 3rd when the first 2 forwards already work so well together.

JMO

 

[Addison Rae]

Samuelsson and Raymond had career years in 2010 when Kesler's head wasn't bigger than the team. There is also no way you can convince me to take Kesler over any of those two players.

Neither of those players play first unit PP either.

Just to add, It's almost a guarantee that Kesler scores 3pt's tomorrow and ends up "point per game".

You're also not going to be able to give me a convincing argument about our "other bigger problems on this team". We have a shotty 4th line?

Our problems all revolve around "secondary scoring". Kesler doesn't do that well enough to garner this "elite status" he's somehow earned.

Actual stats prove toward Kesler actually being an elite 2nd liner in terms of production that's without mentioning the immense intangibles he brings. Kesler has outscored M.Richards the past 4 seasons despite playing with inferior line-mates, while being equal if not better defensively. Also you're wrong both Bergeron and M.Richards play on their teams top power-play unit, or at least did last year.

 

[dave babych returns]

You're also not going to be able to give me a convincing argument about our "other bigger problems on this team". We have a shotty 4th line?

Our problems all revolve around "secondary scoring". Kesler doesn't do that well enough to garner this "elite status" he's somehow earned.

Our problem with "secondary scoring" is that for it to just be a 'problem' and not an outright disaster Kesler has to play like a second liner with "elite status" - you are attributing our issues with secondary scoring to our third best forward when the problem lies with the fifth, sixth, seventh guys, the defense, and yes Kesler himself.

But IMO people get way too wrapped up in Kesler's style of play and assume he can't be part of a productive line even when the facts don't support that claim.

We've seen here that Kesler can rack up 50 assists in a season (34 at ES, good for 13th in the league among forwards) and people will still complain about his vision or his ability to use his linemates. We've seen that scoring the second or third most goals on the team, let's say 25 or thereabouts, with a tough defensive assignment is a ho hum kind of year by many posters standards.

The fact is that for this team to have adequate secondary scoring they have to have depth guys beyond Daniel, Henrik, Alex and Ryan that can combine to put up a goal or so a game.. sometimes more. That hasn't been the case here for years and you can't pin that on Kesler, even if he clearly needs to work some serious kinks out this year now that his is - apparently? - finally healthy.

 

[JuniorNelson]

We do not know the usefulness of any player because Tortorella hasn't had time to learn the line-up. Once there have been some tough games and the team starts to sort itself out, some things will emerge. Since there is no other option, I am guessing Kesler keeps his 2C slot. I actually expect to see him elsewhere, too, since he is a superb checker.

Tortorella has stacked a line with the Sedins and Kesler. He has split the Sedins up. He has had a defenseman play wing. Based on this very brief sample I think he will try combinations until he finds one he likes. We haven't even seen Burrows and Kassian much yet and they are top six options. Any combination might become a fixture.

One thing I am feeling certain about is that the line-up won't be bolstered by trade. Canucks have the guys we have seen and that's it. Perhaps this is in error and Tortorella is empowered to make trades. That would be great! I just don't expect it from Gillis.

 

[King of the ES*]

That makes no sense.

Kesler is an elite two way centre and Schroeder has yet to prove himself as a capable third/fourth liner let alone be capble of handling top centres on face-offs.

Uh, aren't you one of the guys in support of Zack Kassian being on the 1st line? Bit of a contradictory statement above, no?

Anyway, I think it's worth a shot. If it doesn't work, adjust. Where's the harm in trying? OK, so you called him an "elite two way centre". Fine. So now he can be an elite two way winger. As for Schroeder, him being the 3C is almost guaranteed to fail, so why not try putting him in a position where he's expected to generate points?

 

[RobertKron]

We do not know the usefulness of any player because Tortorella hasn't had time to learn the line-up. Once there have been some tough games and the team starts to sort itself out, some things will emerge. Since there is no other option, I am guessing Kesler keeps his 2C slot. I actually expect to see him elsewhere, too, since he is a superb checker.

Tortorella has stacked a line with the Sedins and Kesler. He has split the Sedins up. He has had a defenseman play wing. Based on this very brief sample I think he will try combinations until he finds one he likes. We haven't even seen Burrows and Kassian much yet and they are top six options. Any combination might become a fixture.

One thing I am feeling certain about is that the line-up won't be bolstered by trade. Canucks have the guys we have seen and that's it. Perhaps this is in error and Tortorella is empowered to make trades. That would be great! I just don't expect it from Gillis.

You've been saying this for ages, regardless of how many trades get made in the meantime. Why?

 

[NuxFan09]

Uh, aren't you one of the guys in support of Zack Kassian being on the 1st line? Bit of a contradictory statement above, no?

Anyway, I think it's worth a shot. If it doesn't work, adjust. Where's the harm in trying? OK, so you called him an "elite two way centre". Fine. So now he can be an elite two way winger. As for Schroeder, him being the 3C is almost guaranteed to fail, so why not try putting him in a position where he's expected to generate points?

Gotta agree with you here.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Yes they do but both Marchand and Carter have been constants on both players lines. Kesler also makes him line-mates better, both Raymond and Samuelsson had career years playing with Kesler. Kesler has scored 75, 73, 52*, 63* points the last 4 years which averages to a 66 point pace, which is above average 2nd line production. This while being among the best two-way centres in hockey. Seriously, this team has much bigger problems than Ryan Kesler. Just for comparison sake here's Begeron and M.Richards stats over the past 4 years.

Richards: 55, 51, 66, 62 = 59 point average
Bergeron: 62, 64, 58, 59 = 61 point average

ES scoring (from 2011-2012 and back):

Kesler: 28, 39, 46, 37
Richards: 44, 39, 29, 38
Bergeron: 47, 43, 42, 22 (injured in 2008-2009)

So Kesler seems more in line with Richards than Bergeron, at ES. Bergeron is really strong there. Certainly, Kesler has made hay on the PP for sure.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

You are wrong. I've never said his linemates are boggling him. I'm saying he's anchoring his linemates down. I find it ridiculous that we need to find him another star line-mate for us to succeed. The star himself should be making his line-mates better.

There are teams in the league that wouldn't mind having Hansen, Higgins, Raymond, Samuelsson, Booth, Kassian on our second line. Apparently, as soon as they play on our second line they're useless.

Also as much as you want to say Hemsky and Camallari aren't 1st liners, they are. They may be tweeners, but they are still players that would immediately get tried in the top 6. We can't afford that, and we simply can't afford to do that to get one player going. Only if we restructure the team (more capspace to forwards less to defense), can we see what you want.

Unlike you, I have seen Higgins play on multiple teams. He is routinely snake bitten, Raymond is massively inconsistent, as is Samuelsson, Booth has never been healthy, Hansen is better served as a defensive forward and we have yet to attempt Kassian and Kesler as a combination. You are distorting facts to suit your narrative.

Teams would like to have the aforementioned players, yes. They would also fancy Kesler infinitely more. It is no coincidence, with the exception of Hansen and Kassian, all of them have played for different teams and fell out of favor. Booth has played a mere four good games and you are already anointing him the catalyst of our second line. Should we also hand the reins to Garrison because he has massively outplayed Hamhuis of late?

By your own assertion, they are tweeners, and therefore not legitimate first liners. Likewise, you say they will be tried in our top six. Indeed, on our second line, where they are most effective. How can we not afford them? Both are unlikely to command more than a 1st at the deadline - a worthwhile price considering what they offer.

You are demanding Kesler elevate third liners, be consistent offensively and defensively. Frankly, your expectations of him are simply too excessive. Give him a legitimate second liner and he will meet your demands. Give him Higgins and there is only so much Kesler can do.

 

[John Bender*]

Richards and Bergeron play with a variety of players throughout the year. They make their teammates better. I concede Toews.

It's not 4 games. I've been complaining for 4 years .

You and I can agree to disagree. I'm just happy that other posters have started to see what I've been seeing for awhile.

Not so thinly veiled brag

So during the 2010/11 year, the year he scored 41 goals, the year he won the Selke, the year he put the team on his back and single-handedly won a playoff round.....that was not good enough? Since then he's been injured. He has played 4 games this year. Chill out.

Kesler is exactly the type of player the team needs to win.

 

[shortshorts]

Unlike you, I have seen Higgins play on multiple teams. He is routinely snake bitten, Raymond is massively inconsistent, as is Samuelsson, Booth has never been healthy, Hansen is better served as a defensive forward and we have yet to attempt Kassian and Kesler as a combination. You are distorting facts to suit your narrative.

Teams would like to have the aforementioned players, yes. They would also fancy Kesler infinitely more. It is no coincidence, with the exception of Hansen and Kassian, all of them have played for different teams and fell out of favor. Booth has played a mere four good games and you are already anointing him the catalyst of our second line. Should we also hand the reins to Garrison because he has massively outplayed Hamhuis of late?

By your own assertion, they are tweeners, and therefore not legitimate first liners. Likewise, you say they will be tried in our top six. Indeed, on our second line, where they are most effective. How can we not afford them? Both are unlikely to command more than a 1st at the deadline - a worthwhile price considering what they offer.

You are demanding Kesler elevate third liners, be consistent offensively and defensively. Frankly, your expectations of him are simply too excessive. Give him a legitimate second liner and he will meet your demands. Give him Higgins and there is only so much Kesler can do.

Which second line player isn't massive inconsistent? Oh I know, the ones that are basically 1st liners.

I am not demanding anything out of the question. We've seen Kesler produce with apparently "inferior" line-mates in 2009-2010 and made them better players with a completely different style of play than what we saw in 2010-2011, and see now.

I want the Kesler that makes his line-mates better by playing a solid cycle, physical game. The points came to that Kesler by hard-work, and without forcing the play.

2011 to present Kesler does not do that. This Kesler makes his living off of hot-streaks aka "Beastmode", and off the powerplay.

Also I have said nothing about Booth being the catalyst on his own, but thanks for trying. What I did say about Booth was that he's been effective and playing better than Kesler and Higgins. I also said that Booth would be more effective with a center that can create space for him. Booth isn't a player that can effectively create plays off his own stick besides driving the puck. He is effective when he has space, can cut to the middle of the ice and shoot, or drive directly to the net. Kesler can't/hasn't do/done that.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Which second line player isn't massive inconsistent? Oh I know, the ones that are basically 1st liners.

I am not demanding anything out of the question. We've seen Kesler produce with apparently "inferior" line-mates in 2009-2010 and made them better players with a completely different style of play than what we saw in 2010-2011, and see now.

I want the Kesler that makes his line-mates better by playing a solid cycle, physical game. The points came to that Kesler by hard-work, and without forcing the play.

2011 to present Kesler does not do that. This Kesler makes his living off of hot-streaks aka "Beastmode", and off the powerplay.

Also I have said nothing about Booth being the catalyst on his own, but thanks for trying. What I did say about Booth was that he's been effective and playing better than Kesler and Higgins. I also said that Booth would be more effective with a center that can create space for him. Booth isn't a player that can effectively create plays off his own stick besides driving the puck. He is effective when he has space, can cut to the middle of the ice and shoot, or drive directly to the net.

Again, your own assertion disproves your point. By virtue of their inconsistency, the second line will struggle. Call them whatever you fancy, but those are the types of players that can help spark a line. As it stands, Kesler is the only one drawing attention, with predictable results.

Yes, and how many games into the season before that transpired? Because unless it's four, then your criticism is premature. Samuelsson had a career season his first year signing, only to fizzle into obscurity afterward. Are we going to fault Kesler for that?

What you want is the idyllic version of Kesler: a combination of his Selke and playmaking performance all wrapped into one package. Who knows, lightning may strike twice. However, certainly not after four games.

No, you are disregarding Booth's prior inconsistencies in favor ostracizing Kesler. With Booth, you accentuate the positive, highlighting a decent start, but subsequently do the opposite toward Kesler: "Booth needs a creative centre to be effective." verse "Why anchor a/the Sedin(s) with Kesler?"

You refuse to acknowledge maybe Kesler needs a creative winger, which you conceded Booth is not. The solution ought to be obvious.

Booth - Henrik - Hansen
Daniel - Kesler - Higgins
Santorelli - Richardson - Weise
Sestito - Dalpe - Weber

Swap Higgins and Hansen to your preference.

 

[shortshorts]

What you want is the idyllic version of Kesler: a combination of his Selke and playmaking performance all wrapped into one package. Who knows? Lightning may strike twice, however certainly not after four games.

No, you are disregarding Booth's prior inconsistencies in favor ostracizing Kesler. With Booth, you accentuate the positive, highlighting a decent start, but subsequently do the opposite toward Kesler: "Booth needs a creative centre to be effective." "Why anchor a/the Sedin(s) with anchor?"

You refuse to acknowledge maybe Kesler needs a creative winger, which you conceded Booth is not. The solution ought to be obvious.

2009/2010 Kesler deserved the Selke, and 2010/2011 Toew's deserved the Selke. 2009/2010 Kesler > 2010/2011 Kesler every single day of the week.

Booth isn't expected to be the "star" on the line. Kesler is. The expectations are different. It is much easier to find Booth a line-mate when we can bump him down lines for him to fit. IE: Schroeder with Booth, or Santorelli with Booth.

You will never see Kesler leave the second line. As such, I expect him to be the stud on that line.

 

[fancouver]

Which second line player isn't massive inconsistent? Oh I know, the ones that are basically 1st liners.

I am not demanding anything out of the question. We've seen Kesler produce with apparently "inferior" line-mates in 2009-2010 and made them better players with a completely different style of play than what we saw in 2010-2011, and see now.

I want the Kesler that makes his line-mates better by playing a solid cycle, physical game. The points came to that Kesler by hard-work, and without forcing the play.

2011 to present Kesler does not do that. This Kesler makes his living off of hot-streaks aka "Beastmode", and off the powerplay.

Also I have said nothing about Booth being the catalyst on his own, but thanks for trying. What I did say about Booth was that he's been effective and playing better than Kesler and Higgins. I also said that Booth would be more effective with a center that can create space for him. Booth isn't a player that can effectively create plays off his own stick besides driving the puck. He is effective when he has space, can cut to the middle of the ice and shoot, or drive directly to the net. Kesler can't/hasn't do/done that.

Tough to argue that. If you actually watch even some games, you can notice Booth has had some good rhythm along with Santorelli.

The problem is Kesler hasn't played well with anyone since Raymond and Samuelsson. I know Kesler is a well-liked guy around here because of what he did against Nashville a few seasons back in the playoffs, but the guy hasn't really done much. He always talks about being better, being hungrier and says all the right things. But on the ice, his shots just get deflected from the hashmarks. It's the same play over and over again.

And the thing is, he can do all the talking he wants because at the end of the day, the Sedins and Luongo will bail him out.

 

[brandon4679]

everyone calling for a new linemate please go watch this game his speed is not even close to what it was right now speed is/was a big part of his game his ability to create seperation was excellent his ability to chase down pucks on the forcheck was relentless i hate to say it but anyone who is sitting here saying it's his linemates is nuts the guy just isn't the same i can only hope he gets better but he hasn't been the same since 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmzQBhauC7c

 

[shortshorts]

Tough to argue that. If you actually watch even some games, you can notice Booth has had some good rhythm along with Santorelli.

The problem is Kesler hasn't played well with anyone since Raymond and Samuelsson. I know Kesler is a well-liked guy around here because of what he did against Nashville a few seasons back in the playoffs, but the guy hasn't really done much. He always talks about being better, being hungrier and says all the right things. But on the ice, his shots just get deflected from the hashmarks. It's the same play over and over again.

And the thing is, he can do all the talking he wants because at the end of the day, the Sedins and Luongo will bail him out.

It's what I've noticed. It's fair for people to disagree.

The rest of your post I completely agree with.

 

[brandon4679]

I don't know why you guys are saying he's lost his speed - based on what? It's four games into the season! Most of the players are not in 100% game shape.

Kesler has NEVER been an offensive "weapon". Most second line centers produce around 50 to 60 points on good teams, unless your name is Malkin, I can see him around that again this year.

im sorry but if you don't know what ur talking about just don't post the guy hasn't had the speed he used to have for 2 years now

 

[Virtanen2Horvat]

I hope Kesler can find his game I haven't been that impressed lately.

 

[94eleven]

Kesler's greatest asset is that he can play the opposition's best players and be a positive player out of it. Which three players have played far and away the toughest minutes so far at 5v5? That would be Higgins, Kesler and (surprisingly) Edler. Higgins and Kesler are able to do this while pushing play to the other team's end (unlike Edler) and this is where his value lies.

Kesler and Higgins have two of the worst on-ice shooting %s (at an unsustainable low level) and have terrible on-ice save% (also at unsustainable levels), a little more puck luck at both ends at even strength and we are talking about how great of a start Kesler is having and how maybe he is a 40-goal scorer again and a Selke winner.

From an "eye test" point of view he looks to me like a player who is trying to concentrate on playing his role in a new system when he doesn't have the puck, which to me is why he looks slow. He isn't playing with burst away from the puck, instead trying to be in proper position, ironically I think this leads to the opposite occurring. Whenever he has the puck you can see that burst, especially through the neutral zone, which is why I don't think he has lost a step, instead he looks like a player who is playing while thinking instead of on instinct.

 

[BoHorvatFan]

He hasn't played much hockey in the last year and a half and hasn't been healthy in two years. He deserves some time to get his timing back. He's rushing things, decision making is off, but mostly it's just timing, he's not quite where he should be yet.

He'll pick it up, as long as he doesn't get hurt again.

 

[StIllmatic]

I would give it until December before I make any judgements. I do have full faith in the guy and his compete level, but I can't hide the fact that I find it discerning that his skating has dropped off. It was one of his main features that made Kesler elite. If he is healthy for the next two months and fails to improve to his earlier days back in 2010 and 2011, then I fear Kesler will officially no longer be an elite center. He will still, however, be a great second line center.

 

[vanuck]

The Canucks Fandom definition of "2nd line winger" is a first liner on a second line.

I'm totally loving this thread.

Seen it too often in the Armchair GM thread.

Also an option I would love to see.

Personally, I find many of Kesler's issues wrapped in him being the oppositions primary target. No one is taking Higgins or Booth on Kesler's line because they find them far less dangerous. This among the reasons I'd like to split the Sedins until we get some of our guys back. We need to take the focus off Kesler.

That's on him to realize that then. The coaches will probably point it out regardless, but he should be able to recognize when opponents are cheating to him and make use of the extra space that's opened up for Booth/Higgy.

But overall I'm not going to judge just yet, especially when we were basically playing a non-existent offensive system last year.

 

[Addison Rae]

The Canucks Fandom definition of "2nd line winger" is a first liner on a second line.

I'm totally loving this thread.

Meh most successful teams have that.

Chicago: Hossa and Sharp
LA: Carter
Bos: Eriksson (You could even make an argument for Marchand)
SJ: Marleau
Pit: Neal


Vancouver needs another top winger if they want to contend. Man Carter would have been perfect.

 

[B-rock]

Lots of talk about Kesler's lack of speed in the first few games here...

Any insights into his new skates? Looks like he's using those new Eastons that are based on the old MLX boot, which are supposed to give more forward lean and flex. Pretty certain he was always a Bauer guy.

Looks like Bieksa's got the Easton's too.

I think it's way too early to jump on shortshorts' bandwagon of lambasting Kesler after 4 games. See where he's at after 20 games.

Or we could just not learn anything from years' past and think that the Oilers will be in playoff contention based on the first 15 games and that Brian Savage is going to win the scoring title after yet another 15 goal October.

 

[alternate]

I don't want Torts to try to mold a 2nd scoring line out of Kesler's line. Once we get healthy I don't want to see Kesler with Booth, Kassian, Schroeder, and especially Daniel. I want the line loaded up with our three best defensive forwards and set upon our opponent's biggest offensive threat. Burrows-Kesler-Hansen would be a ***** to play against in Torts's aggressive forecheck system.

Kesler's offence imo comes more naturally when the shut down role is his top priority; when providing secondary offense is his top priority, we get straight ahead and shoot Kesler. Let Schroeder or Santorelli center a "second" offensive line that gets easier match-ups.

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Booth-Schroeder-Santorelli/Higgins
Burrows-Kesler-Hansen
Higgins/Santorelli-Richardson-Weise

I really believe that for Kesler to refind Beast mode he needs to be freed of offensive expectations (don't really want 82 games of Beast mode tho, rather have Kesler healthy come the playoffs).