News Article: Rutherford has resigned - Part 2

[Gurglesons]

Nah. You're now pivoting as you always do. JR is fired, it was all his fault!

No. I've never said it was all his fault. I said, I don't want the guy who can't win a trade moving Letang or Malkin or trying to make a big change up after a couple games because of reasons.

If anything we've heard from the players that there has been too many changes over the last few years. Some stability and letting the roster grow internally is good in my opinion.

It's why I'd be down for Hextall.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

The thing, just to reiterate, Steigy alluded to is everyone save JR was good to stay the course and didn't think it was time yet to act rashly.

As I said, that alone could prompt a GM to say 'I no longer have their confidence, so there's no point to being here'.

Again, one thing Steigy emphasized also was JR being isolated in Carolina. When you feel isolated from everyone else's thinking, certainly being physically isolated exacerbates things.

True. It's also not great to see them thinking the course they're on is the right one. I've never liked Morehouse and I never will.

 

[KIRK]

To be honest, I look at from the ownership perspective and I'm hoping he says "f*** this", because the franchise has been terrible under him for two years now largely based on his decisions.

And given Morehouse's background I wouldn't be surprised if some of the moves were intended to either push JR up in the organization or out.

Oh I was very clear that I wasn't talking about if what Morehouse was doing was right or fair, only that the fact that it was happening and that everyone but JR was in stay the course mode would've been the type of thing that, in a COVID world where you're physically isolated from everyone, could've prompted a decision to suddenly walk 7 games into a season.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh I was very clear that I wasn't talking about if what Morehouse was doing was right or fair, only that the fact that it was happening and that everyone but JR was in stay the course mode would've been the type of thing that, in a COVID world where you're physically isolated from everyone, could've prompted a decision to suddenly walk 7 games into a season.

And as a business partner for my employers, I would say if the organization is built right we can succeed without him if he isn't 100% committed.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

No. I've never said it was all his fault. I said, I don't want the guy who can't win a trade moving Letang or Malkin or trying to make a big change up after a couple games because of reasons.

If anything we've heard from the players that there has been too many changes over the last few years. Some stability and letting the roster grow internally is good in my opinion.

Letang isn't exactly easy to trade. His stroke, injury history and how the media portrays his play in his end likely always made that hard to do.

Also you again make it appear like JR didn't win big trades. The Kessel one was a win twice.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Maybe it's the Sullivan thing that Steigy alludes to, just maybe.

Allvin and Morehouse specifally name the good that Sullivan has done and look forward to more of that. It's quite possible JR with his firing of the assistants already had Sullivan on notice. You think him doing that and their love for Sully doesn't make them worry a little and that JR saw the writing on the wall with them blocking that move and whatever else he had planned?

I trust Mike Sullivan more than Jim Rutherford, so I can't blame them hitching their wagon to the coach. If someone is in such an intractable position that rather than compromise or work together on a plan forward they simply quit, then maybe that's for the best.

Rutherford did a ton of good. He was the architect of two Stanley Cups. His post-Cup team construction has been a mix of inspired and haphazard. Sullivan has his faults, but I actually like what I see from him this year. I'm more patient than most because of the lack of training camp, but I at least see an attempt to adjust some of the tactics that maybe grew stale or failed the last year or two. That shows someone willing to adjust while still prioritizing a speed game.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

It's funny how quickly Rutherford has gone from worst trades ever in depriving this team of Kessel and Hornqvist to a folk hero who was just trying to do big things and change this franchise.

Let's be honest, JR's time was done here and he had pissed away anything reasonable to make this team a contender. If he traded the 15 overall and then wanted to tear down when we have a lottery pick I'm glad he is gone.

Ya JR messed up a lot after the second cup and I wasn’t shy about calling him out for it.

However, I’ll shout back at your comment about people forgetting...

Are we forgetting the dark place this org was in before JR?

Lemieux and Burkle spearheaded that mess, so I’m not going to pretend to feel good about JR being gone and assuming these two can fix this.

 

[Gurglesons]

Letang isn't exactly easy to trade. His stroke, injury history and how the media portrays his play in his end likely always made that hard to do.

Also you again make it appear like JR didn't win big trades. The Kessel one was a win twice.

Kessel is a whole different bag than Letang or Malkin. Center / # 1 D versus extra wing.

 

[larueskee]

And their 4-2-1 record also projects to a 105 point finish over an 82 game season.

So that means they have played 4 teams? Sorry but that minus sticks out like a sore thumb as it has been trending down each year since the plus 32 in 2018-2019. Add in those bad deals like the Jack Johnson contract, the Sullivan ( forever ) extension, Maata etc and his days were numbered. I would have gotten rid of a lot earlier but I'm like Steinbrenner.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ya JR messed up a lot after the second cup and I wasn’t shy about calling him out for it.

However, I’ll shout back at your comment about people forgetting...

Are we forgetting the dark place this org was in before JR?

Lemieux and Burkle spearheaded that mess, so I’m not going to pretend to feel good about JR being gone and assuming these two know what they are doing.

Lemieux and Burkle seem to wait much too long to get involved. Rutherford and Sullivan should've been gone after last year ala Bylsma and Shero in 2013.

I'll trust them though, you say the franchise was in a dark place, but it was still a well ran org compared to what we saw in the early 2000s. They've stabilized this franchise financially which is their job as ownership. Ultimately the buck stops with the GM and JR did a lot for this team, but also was not 100% committed to working in the organization's structure anymore. Good luck, thank you and let's move on and find someone that is.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Lemieux and Burkle seem to wait much too long to get involved. Rutherford and Sullivan should've been gone after last year ala Bylsma and Shero in 2013.

Maybe, but that means they have only done half the job and are still making the same mistakes... hence my point.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

BTW, it very well may not have been a specific player.

First, what @Richard wrote about Morehouse using Allvin as a direct conduit to Sullivan is 100% believable, especially in light of what Steigy highlighted.

When you've had a certain level of autonomy and then, over the opening month of the season, you get the impression that there's a decreasing lack of trust from above, with that impression alone . . . as I said . . . it's perfectly understandable.

There are times for autonomy and there are times for compromise and teamwork.

Every franchise in sports is a business. For the most part, ownership has been historically pretty hands off the last 15 years in Pittsburgh unless there is a problem. But I can see them being a bit more specific in their permissions due to the impending end of the Crosby-Malkin era. And if Rutherford would just rather go it alone, then again, it's better he's gone.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Kessel is a whole different bag than Letang or Malkin. Center / # 1 D versus extra wing.

You even know what the Letang deal was that ownership didn't allow this year?

The Malkin thing was 2yrs ago now.

Oh and I guess beefing openly with players is fine as a coach.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So that means they have played 4 teams? Sorry but that minus sticks out like a sore thumb as it has been trending down each year since the plus 32 in 2018-2019. Add in those bad deals like the Jack Johnson contract, the Sullivan ( forever ) extension, Maata etc and his days were numbered. I would have gotten rid of a lot earlier but I'm like Steinbrenner.

So you think them having a -3 goal differential through 7 games is bad, but somehow thing them being on pace for 105 points over those 7 games somehow doesn't matter?

Seriously, explain it. I really don't understand your galaxy brain thinking here.

 

[KIRK]

JR on with Madden . . .

- Said the decision to go came fast
- Won't elaborate on whether firings or anything else played a role; just said it was time
- JR said he wasn't trying to trade Malkin or Letang (wished there were cap space to keep Fleury too)
- Said it had NOTHING to do with players
- JR said it's not necessarily a retirement
- Said he feels good, that pandemic gave him chance to think about where he is in life
- Said at right time he'd consider another situation (or might enjoy next few months and retire)

Pretty clear this was Morehouse. Not on a personal level but instead on a 'there can't be two captains, especially after I've had a lot more control than it feels like I do now'.

EDIT: Again, this is NOT a comment on who is right in this. I'm relaying what JR said and what it implies . . . and it's pretty clear that explains why he called it at 7 games, because a month into the season it felt to him like his control was dwindling and how he was isolated from everyone else in terms of how he viewed things.

 

[Pens x]

It's funny how quickly Rutherford has gone from worst trades ever in depriving this team of Kessel and Hornqvist to a folk hero who was just trying to do big things and change this franchise.

Let's be honest, JR's time was done here and he had pissed away anything reasonable to make this team a contender. If he traded the 15 overall and then wanted to tear down when we have a lottery pick I'm glad he is gone.

I have to agree. It’s like when someone dies, you only focus on the positives they did in their lives.

JR isn’t dead, and he’s been awful here for years. After I read some of the posts in the appreciation thread:

The grass isn’t always greener, but he’s been a disaster for the last several years. JR dug his own grave. At some point, ownership had to start getting frustrated. The team is pissing away roughly $3.2 mil this season because of his disastrous decisions.

I feel a little bad for JR if he was told he had to trade Horny. Also, I don’t know why some people here think Letang as invincible. If we received a good offer for him, you maybe make a move. But to simply say no because it’s Letang is craziness. He’s a far cry from Sid and Geno.

 

[Andy99]

I didn’t realize Gillis had already made a pitch to the Pens for the GM position lol

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - What you talkin' about Gillis

 

[Gurglesons]

Maybe, but that means they have only done half the job and are still making the same mistakes... hence my point.

Very true. At the same time, it is a hard season to fire a coach in season during. I'll take a wait and watch approach.

I certainly didn't do that with Rutherford and it burned me.

 

[Gurglesons]

JR on with Madden . . .

- Said the decision to go came fast
- Won't elaborate on whether firings or anything else played a role; just said it was time
- JR said he wasn't trying to trade Malkin or Letang (wished there were cap space to keep Fleury too)
- Said it had NOTHING to do with players
- JR said it's not necessarily a retirement
- Said he feels good, that pandemic gave him chance to think about where he is in life
- Said at right time he'd consider another situation (or might enjoy next few months and retire)

Pretty clear this was Morehouse. Not on a personal level but instead on a 'there can't be two captains, especially after I've had a lot more control than it feels like I do now'.

As an HR partner, I'm seeing this type of thing happen TONS. Hell, I found a different role after being furloughed. earlier in the year.

People are becoming more collectively aware that systems from the past are broken and we don't need to just spin on a wheel. More power to Rutherford and hopefully our ownership can turn this into a win.

 

[Andy99]

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Very true. At the same time, it is a hard season to fire a coach in season during. I'll take a wait and watch approach.

I certainly didn't do that with Rutherford and it burned me.

I’ve already admitted I’m indifferent. I try to be blunt as often as possible and I’ve always been optimistic during the Crosby-Malkin years, but I can’t fake optimism... it’s always genuine.

So whatever they do, I don’t care that much.

My expectations are as low as they can be without giving up on them.

Just don’t give the Wild a top ten pick... it’s all I care about, because that would actually bother me.

 

[Gurglesons]

I’ve already admitted I’m indifferent. I try to be blunt as often as possible and I’ve always been optimistic during the Crosby-Malkin years, but I can’t fake optimism... it’s always genuine.

So whatever they do, I don’t care that much.

My expectations are as low as they can be without giving up on them.

Just don’t give the Wild a top ten pick... it’s all I care about, because that would actually bother me.

I'm someone that just watches games for entertainment. Say what you will about the Penguins this year, but they've been entertaining following the Flyers games.

Well, outside of Malkin and Sid..

 

[Gurglesons]

JR on with Madden . . .

- Said the decision to go came fast
- Won't elaborate on whether firings or anything else played a role; just said it was time
- JR said he wasn't trying to trade Malkin or Letang (wished there were cap space to keep Fleury too)
- Said it had NOTHING to do with players
- JR said it's not necessarily a retirement
- Said he feels good, that pandemic gave him chance to think about where he is in life
- Said at right time he'd consider another situation (or might enjoy next few months and retire)

Pretty clear this was Morehouse. Not on a personal level but instead on a 'there can't be two captains, especially after I've had a lot more control than it feels like I do now'.

EDIT: Again, this is NOT a comment on who is right in this. I'm relaying what JR said and what it implies . . . and it's pretty clear that explains why he called it at 7 games, because a month into the season it felt to him like his control was dwindling and how he was isolated from everyone else in terms of how he viewed things.

Pretty obvious JR is going to spill the beans and say something stupid in like 3 days or maybe 3 hours.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

JR on with Madden . . .

- Said the decision to go came fast
- Won't elaborate on whether firings or anything else played a role; just said it was time
- JR said he wasn't trying to trade Malkin or Letang (wished there were cap space to keep Fleury too)
- Said it had NOTHING to do with players
- JR said it's not necessarily a retirement
- Said he feels good, that pandemic gave him chance to think about where he is in life
- Said at right time he'd consider another situation (or might enjoy next few months and retire)

Pretty clear this was Morehouse. Not on a personal level but instead on a 'there can't be two captains, especially after I've had a lot more control than it feels like I do now'.

EDIT: Again, this is NOT a comment on who is right in this. I'm relaying what JR said and what it implies . . . and it's pretty clear that explains why he called it at 7 games, because a month into the season it felt to him like his control was dwindling and how he was isolated from everyone else in terms of how he viewed things.

And I truly think it's front office construction that there was a divide.

I think the notion that Rutherford felt isolated because of the pandemic is accurate (and understandable). I think the Penguins wanted to set up the front office for the next chapter in the team's history in a particular fashion, including a possible eventual successor for Rutherford. And for whatever reason, the Penguins and Rutherford couldn't come to an agreement on how that looked. They made it through the offseason, but maybe the Penguins have targeted someone to come in and help recently - but haven't made the hire - and Rutherford balked. His contract still hasn't been renewed, the injuries are piling up and there is a sense that the people able to be around the team have more say than him...I can see that leading to him just quitting.

I still say that's a lousy way to leave and reflects poorly on Rutherford. I also don't think the Penguins are much at fault if this is how it played out. Their ultimate decisions may be bad (say if they hire Dale Tallon in any capacity, for example). But the intent is sound. They need more bodies in the front office. They should've had a successor for Rutherford in place. That's all reasonable, and if Rutherford simply didn't like that direction, then it's best they've split.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, I can make logic of why JR wanted to leave if it was about owners meddling. I think this is especially true after they floated the idea of bringing in Tallon as an advisor. I can easily see JR reacting to that as basically saying "are you saying you don't trust me to run this team?" and take that personally.

The only thing I don't understand is what set him off now. Was it the OT loss to the Bruins? Was that really the straw that broke the camels back? It seems like we have a reasonable answer for "why did he quit?", but not to "why did he quit right now?" and I'm not sure we'll ever find out.