News Article: Rutherford has resigned - Part 2

[Gurglesons]

But if you "have to make a tough move", (He was probably trying before these injuries hit) Letang, I don't think was promised any such thing as being a Penguin for life.

Letang, this year, is physically hurting this team and a coach who can't seem to reel him in, and over extends him too boot.

I'm not under the, "Letang needs to stay at all costs." I understand the plight they are in, now. But they have holes to fill. Someone was probably gonna be traded and JR got the axe on something. They will need to send out a significant player to fill the many holes.

This is where things get tricky.

Letang has been on the ice for one GA at 5v5 in the last five games.

Moving Letang with how Marino is playing would be pretty funny to be honest.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I always was stunned by it. Now, it's being presented as not his idea. IF that's the case, then one assumes he was fired because the powers that be (I'd assume Morehouse) felt someone had to be accountable for the WBS thing, and who else if not the AGM in charge of WBS.

Thats exactly what I posed to my wife... was Jason the fall guy for the WBS incident?

The Skaldes apparently went to Guerin though.

I said to my wife, maybe since Guerin was gone and couldn’t be held accountable anymore, the next in line was Jason?

But then I felt badly for speculating like he had anything to do with the cover up....

Again, just promoted to asst GM... my wife and I both had the impression from talking to them they were going to be in Pgh awhile... then suddenly fired.

Maybe the dots don’t connect but something is weird AF.

 

[Peat]

I always was stunned by it. Now, it's being presented as not his idea. IF that's the case, then one assumes he was fired because the powers that be (I'd assume Morehouse) felt someone had to be accountable for the WBS thing, and who else if not the AGM in charge of WBS.

Throwing shit against the wall - maybe they think that if they don't like Rutherford's record, why are they paying an AGM who's always agreeing with him?

Could be the WBS thing but a) iirc the timing is that Guerin was in charge for the initial report b) I guess Karmanos fired Skalde, but he could do that of his own accord?

I believe Rutherford deserves to stick to his guns. But everyone’s boss interferes eventually.

Hopefully the team parlays this into thinking their GM counted them out and they turn around their season.

Tbh, I dunno if I think Rutherford deserved to be in charge at this point.

There's levels of interference. I'm willing to believe that the level had gone too high.

And... well, if this motivates the team, f***in' A. I'll put my money on business as usual but we'll see.

 

[Richard]

JR was increasingly not able to make the deals he thought he needed to shape the roster. Period. This wasn't at Mario or Ron but at Morehouse, who runs the team now.

Next, lets be clear Jimmy literally just said F it and walked away after yet another bout with Morehouse over roster moves, usage and the inability to move certain clubhouse longtermers who are quickly becoming cancers.

 

[Gurglesons]

JR was increasingly not able to make the deals he thought he needed to shape the roster. Period. This wasn't at Mario or Ron but at Morehouse, who runs the team now.

Next, lets be clear Jimmy literally just said F it and walked away after yet another bout with Morehouse over roster moves, usage and the inability to move certain clubhouse longtermers who are quickly becoming cancers.

Letang and Malkin are becoming cancers?

 

[EightyOne]

Letang and Malkin are becoming cancers?

Five years ago

 

[Gurglesons]

Five years ago

I mean, Letang has been very good for us this year outside of the power play and Flyers series.

I seriously question why people are ganging up on Letang this season. Dumoulin has been the big culprit on that pairing.

And I think that goes further to why I'm siding with the org if anything is true about Letang. (Which I don't believe it is as @KIRK, @Mr Jiggyfly and @IcedCapp have all said that Letang could possibly be traded as have the beat writers).

 

[Richard]

This is 100% this: Morehouse was using Alvin as his go to man and was going through him directly to the coach. He had cut out Jim and thats a no no

Coupled with the inability to make roster moves in the offseason.

Finally, add the pandemic to the list- Jimmy was having a hard time getting his way in and being cut out as above-its not like he could go talk to Sullivan everyday like he used to.

The end, mystery solved.

 

[Turin]

JR was increasingly not able to make the deals he thought he needed to shape the roster. Period. This wasn't at Mario or Ron but at Morehouse, who runs the team now.

Next, lets be clear Jimmy literally just said F it and walked away after yet another bout with Morehouse over roster moves, usage and the inability to move certain clubhouse longtermers who are quickly becoming cancers.

I don’t doubt that Morehouse is a sleezy creep but if he “runs the team now” that is Ron Burkle’s fault ultimately.

 

[KIRK]

JR was increasingly not able to make the deals he thought he needed to shape the roster. Period. This wasn't at Mario or Ron but at Morehouse, who runs the team now.

Next, lets be clear Jimmy literally just said F it and walked away after yet another bout with Morehouse over roster moves, usage and the inability to move certain clubhouse longtermers who are quickly becoming cancers.

In this context, it's interesting to again highlight Steigy's focus on Allvin saying he and Sullivan are on the same page.

Steigy also made a comment that I forgot to note that everyone save JR (from ownership to other management to coaches) preferred a stay the course and don't act rashly approach.

Your Morehouse, Allvin comment certainly fits that take.

EDIT: My own take on this is I'd have been more inclined to give JR the benefit of the doubt a few years ago, but his body of work over the last 42 months certainly offers some support to the idea that there was valid reason to be skeptical of Rutherford's plans at this point. Whether that was fair or not or right or not doesn't even matter. It's more that you can see why this blew over the last 30 days (and especially the last couple).

 

[Richard]

Letang and Malkin are becoming cancers?

Some want this to be a "country club" Period.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

JR was increasingly not able to make the deals he thought he needed to shape the roster. Period. This wasn't at Mario or Ron but at Morehouse, who runs the team now.

Next, lets be clear Jimmy literally just said F it and walked away after yet another bout with Morehouse over roster moves, usage and the inability to move certain clubhouse longtermers who are quickly becoming cancers.

Clubhouse cancers? Bull.

 

[Gurglesons]

Some want this to be a "country club" Period.

I find it hard to believe Letang and Malkin want this to be a "country club".

If anything those two have bled black and gold more than any Penguin since Lemieux in terms of the toll the sport has taken on their body for the success of the franchise.

They also are consistently the hardest players on themselves and the team when we aren't achieving what we want.

Ownership and management. Sure. I get what you are saying. But at the same time the Penguins have been ran like an A+ organization for the last 15 years so I think the culture they've instilled here has been fine.

 

[Turin]

This is 100% this: Morehouse was using Alvin as his go to man and was going through him directly to the coach. He had cut out Jim and thats a no no

Coupled with the inability to make roster moves in the offseason.

Finally, add the pandemic to the list- Jimmy was having a hard time getting his way in and being cut out as above-its not like he could go talk to Sullivan everyday like he used to.

The end, mystery solved.

I could see the idea that Rutherford felt like he was cut out of decisions in a way not befitting of his title. Hell, maybe management had kept him out of respect but decided to progressively mitigate his power since his track record decidedly worsened as his large assistant GM team dwindled.

This idea makes the Karmanos thing make sense. They ultimately lost confidence in Rutherford but wanted to let him stay, just diminish his control so they fired his Yes man. JR saw the writing on the wall and didn’t take well to being a figurehead.

 

[Gurglesons]

I could see the idea that Rutherford felt like he was cut out of decisions in a way not befitting of his title. Hell, maybe management had kept him out of respect but decided to progressively mitigate his power since his track record decidedly worsened as his large assistant GM team dwindled.

Rutherford had the inability to make moves this off season.

That's why...

We bought out Jack Johnson.
Traded Bjugstad.
Traded for Kapanen.
Traded Hornqvist.
Traded Matt Murray.

@Richard is the same dude who consistently parades around the fact that Lemieux is only 1% invested in the team these days without any proof.

 

[Peat]

EDIT: My own take on this is I'd have been more inclined to give JR the benefit of the doubt a few years ago, but his body of work over the last 42 months certainly offers some support to the idea that there was valid reason to be skeptical of Rutherford's plans at this point. Whether that was fair or not or right or not doesn't even matter. It's more that you can see why this blew over the last 30 days (and especially the last couple).

Some?!

I mean, tbf, I was all for supporting him to the hilt while here... but I think there's more than some support out there

 

[TKalltheTime]

FYI the Letang thing from Dunlap looks to be fake. Who would have guessed that?

NOY!!!!!! Good lord what a f***in hack...

 

[Honour Over Glory]

“I think the work that Sully has done over the last five years, the culture we have and the mindset and the identity of our team, I think it’s set up for success,” Allvin said.

Let's all enjoy another wasted playoffs.

 

[Turin]

Rutherford had the inability to make moves this off season.

That's why...

We bought out Jack Johnson.
Traded Bjugstad.
Traded for Kapanen.
Traded Hornqvist.
Traded Matt Murray.

@Richard is the same dude who consistently parades around the fact that Lemieux is only 1% invested in the team these days without any proof.

If this scenario is to make any sense it wouldn’t be the offseason but probably some time after the Hornqvist trade I’d guess. Not saying it’s true.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm expecting it to be Tallon but the idea of Hextall is interesting. My big area of concern is that I probably want a really aggressive GM to try and maximize the remaining years of Crosby and Malkin, and I'm not sure Hextall would be that guy. Hextall was notoriously patient when he was the Flyers GM IIRC, and I don't think that fits the Penguins timeline that well.

That doesn't mean you need another nutjob like JR (and I mean that in a nice way), but I wouldn't be happy with a GM like Cheveldayoff.

 

[KIRK]

I mean, Letang has been very good for us this year outside of the power play and Flyers series.

I seriously question why people are ganging up on Letang this season. Dumoulin has been the big culprit on that pairing.

And I think that goes further to why I'm siding with the org if anything is true about Letang. (Which I don't believe it is as @KIRK, @Mr Jiggyfly and @IcedCapp have all said that Letang could possibly be traded as have the beat writers).

Yes, but here's a consideration:

Ownership always had final say on Letang. When they almost traded him to Florida in December 2017, everyone agreed on what the return had to be, and Florida just didn't get there. BUT, after the last 36 months, it's entirely possible ownership, via Morehouse, had more questions that what JR was used to in the past and/or had a different belief at this point as to what Letang's value is.

This coveys lack of trust. Whether it was fair or not or right or not for JR to feel that way, it's certainly understandable that lack of trust could be the final straw.

I flipped on Madden. He said it was he didn't want to fire Karmanos or the assistants and in the end just reached the point that he felt his control was going to keep being diminished and just said screw it Tuesday night.

EDIT: @Richard thinks it was Malkin too. Maybe, but I have my doubts, because that NO came from Sid, that Malkin only left once his contract was done or if he wanted out earlier. Not saying that was fair or not, just that it's pretty clear JR made his peace with that one 18 months ago.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Rutherford had the inability to make moves this off season.

That's why...

We bought out Jack Johnson.
Traded Bjugstad.
Traded for Kapanen.
Traded Hornqvist.
Traded Matt Murray.

@Richard is the same dude who consistently parades around the fact that Lemieux is only 1% invested in the team these days without any proof.

David Morehouse: "Patrick Allvin will have a direct line to Mario if he needs help or guidance."

Guy on message board: "Mario's completely checked out, not involved. Letang and Malkin are cancers!"

 

[KIRK]

Some want this to be a "country club" Period.

I'm pretty sure there's a player with a lot more stroke than anyone save the owners who is batman to those two robins at this point.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes, but here's a consideration:

Ownership always had final say on Letang. When they almost traded him to Florida in December 2017, everyone agreed on what the return had to be, and Florida just didn't get there. BUT, after the last 36 months, it's entirely possible ownership, via Morehouse, had more questions that what JR was used to in the past and/or had a different belief at this point as to what Letang's value is.

This coveys lack of trust. Whether it was fair or not or right or not for JR to feel that way, it's certainly understandable that lack of trust could be the final straw.

I flipped on Madden. He said it was he didn't want to fire Karmanos or the assistants and in the end just reached the point that he felt his control was going to keep being diminished and just said screw it Tuesday night.

EDIT: @Richard thinks it was Malkin too. Maybe, but I have my doubts, because that NO came from Sid, that Malkin only left once his contract was done or if he wanted out earlier. Not saying that was fair or not, just that it's pretty clear JR made his peace with that one 18 months ago.

I think this decision could potentially steer this ship in the right direction quite easily. And I think acting like Morehouse wanted a country club atmosphere because he didn't trust JR to move Letang or Malkin is a stretch. I'm more addressing @Richard's tone versus his facts.

I know you are just taking a neutral look to this situation and I agree. If I was JR, I'd probably say see you later and if I'm Penguins management I'm probably like "we got rid of Rutherford without firing him and hopefully preserving that relationship to some degree at least publicly".

There will come a time that moving on from Letang and Malkin will be the right decision, but that time is not this year and to be honest their contracts are more than manageable for what they bring. (especially from a financial impact I'm sure as a franchise that is bleeding money.) Optically as the ownership, you let Letang or Malkin make the decision. Maybe that's the wrong decision from the GM chair, but tbh if it is and we are going the other way I don't want Rutherford moving Letang or Malkin.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Let's all enjoy another wasted playoffs.

I’ll take another round of embarrassing playoffs over giving the Wild a top ten pick.

Given the state of things right now, that seems like an optimal outcome for this season.

Right now, Wild fans be like: