Prospect Info: Round 4, Pick 104: Mikhail Vorobyov, C, Tolpar Ufa (MHL --> KHL)

[FLYguy3911]

@FLYguy3911 As one of the "unofficial" Russian translators on this site, I would like to ask a sincere question: how would you like to see them translated?

Other than "close to the source" translation would introduce translator's bias and add flaws to the original text. I agree that some stylistic impurities could be adjusted to the North American reader, however, I would suggest to do so as a comment. That way there will be no distortion in the original information.

Also, neither @Alex K , nor @Appleyard's ex, nor I are native English speakers and/ or professional translators, we are just happy to provide this fandom with the information it would not have otherwise.

But back to the original question- I am truly all open for suggestions and would possibly change my translations if the suggestions are doable. We can take this conversation off line (via private messaging) if you wish.

I am in no position to tell you how to translate these interviews. I appreciate the work you do. My point was more that I don't think Russian phrases translate directly to their English equivalents. I mean the backchecking comments seem to be pretty controversial. I've never heard a hockey player say he's not a good backchecker. It doesn't take much skill to backcheck. I have a feeling as @Here4ThaList alluded to, he meant that he prefers to be on the attack rather than giving up possession and having to chase the play. There was also a case where people thought Zamula, coming off of back surgery and a 7 month layoff, joining the Flyers for the startup (the actual lineup, not the camp) was a distinct possibility.

 

[deadhead]

The eyeballs and stats (worst hit rate on the team as a 4C) tell us that Vorobyev didn't like to forecheck, and he didn't seem enthusiastic about backchecking - his play without the puck left a lot to be desired.

While the translation may have put his words a bit out of context, they're consistent with his actual play.
He obviously doesn't like to play without the puck.

 

[CSKA1974]

I am in no position to tell you how to translate these interviews. I appreciate the work you do. My point was more that I don't think Russian phrases translate directly to their English equivalents. I mean the backchecking comments seem to be pretty controversial. I've never heard a hockey player say he's not a good backchecker. It doesn't take much skill to backcheck. I have a feeling as @Here4ThaList alluded to, he meant that he prefers to be on the attack rather than giving up possession and having to chase the play. There was also a case where people thought Zamula, coming off of back surgery and a 7 month layoff, joining the Flyers for the startup (the actual lineup, not the camp) was a distinct possibility.

I reread the original text of Vorobyev's interview. There is no direct equivalent for "backchecking" or "forechecking" in Russian, but @Alex K put it pretty accurately, in my opinion. Misha does admit having difficulties playing without a puck on defense. And his solution to this personal problem is to never give up a puck on attack, so you do not have to play defense. That what was said in the interview, and the perceived controversy lies with the source. It has to be said that, it's nothing new with some Russian forwards (Zherdev comes to mind). In his recent interview Filatov (former bright Columbus prospect) admitted that he did not want to play backcheck and that had put him in Hitch's dog house.
As for adherence to backchecking/ forechecking- how many years it took Ovechkin to do so, what about V and JVR?

For highlighted portion of the quote- Does not every player on the team (including a goalie ) prefer that?

As for Zamula, I think the controversy comes from either his misunderstanding of his recall, or lack of clarity in communication between him and the front office.
But, as translators, we should not avoid these parts of the texts. However, collectively as a fan board we can discuss and discern.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I reread the original text of Vorobyev's interview. There is no direct equivalent for "backchecking" or "forechecking" in Russian, but @Alex K put it pretty accurately, in my opinion. Misha does admit having difficulties playing without a puck on defense. And his solution to this personal problem is to never give up a puck on attack, so you do not have to play defense. That what was said in the interview, and the perceived controversy lies with the source. It has to be said that, it's nothing new with some Russian forwards (Zherdev comes to mind). In his recent interview Filatov (former bright Columbus prospect) admitted that he did not want to play backcheck and that had put him in Hitch's dog house.
As for adherence to backchecking/ forechecking- how many years it took Ovechkin to do so, what about V and JVR?

For highlighted portion of the quote- Does not every player on the team (including a goalie ) prefer that?

Yes and a hockey player has never ever given a cliche answer in an interview.

My only point was I don't think his backchecking comments were meant to be taken that he doesn't want to or refuses to backcheck (aka he's a typical lazy Russian like the usual suspects want to portray). It's more likely as you said that his play away from the puck needs to be better.

 

[CSKA1974]

Yes and a hockey player has never ever given a cliche answer in an interview.

My only point was I don't think his backchecking comments were meant to be taken that he doesn't want to or refuses to backcheck (aka he's a typical lazy Russian like the usual suspects want to portray). It's more likely as you said that his play away from the puck needs to be better.

But he did not say that. Again, the translation was quite accurate, and Misha did say verbatim: " There is a reason for a statement that the best defense is offense. If you do not give up the puck you do not need to work on defense. I would rather play with the puck"
My opinion, is that every fan will evaluate every interview through his/ hers own biases regardless of translation quality.

 

[deadhead]

The most disturbing thing about Vorobyev's play, and it reinforces what he said, is his complete lack of physicality.
He was listed at 6'2 215 in TC.

Now I didn't expect him to play like NAK, Bunnaman and Twarynski. Physical forecheckers who like to hit.

But when you look at someone like Couts, you see a guy who doesn't hit everything in sight, but uses his body to crash the net, fight for the puck, protect the puck, lean on guys defensively, get in people's way, etc. A big man's game.

Voroybev plays like a 180 lb finesse forward, so does Voracek for the most part, but Voracek is far more talented than Vorobyev and can get away with that, though he's starting to play a more physical game as he ages and his skills erode.

Vorobyev likes to play with the puck and make plays, but there's five guys and one puck, and half the time the other team has the puck, so at best you're only going to have the puck 20% or so of your time on the ice (40% of the time your team has the puck), so what are you doing the other 80% of your ice time, standing and watching or making things happen away from the puck?

 

[FLYguy3911]

But he did not say that. Again, the translation was quite accurate, and Misha did say verbatim: " There is a reason for a statement that the best defense is offense. If you do not give up the puck you do not need to work on defense. I would rather play with the puck"
My opinion, is that every fan will evaluate every interview through his/ hers own biases regardless of translation quality.

And I really don’t see anything wrong with what he said. I hope every player has that mindset. And if anyone should have that mindset, it should be a Russian player given the country’s history in the sport. Defense (especially for a forward) is instinctual and not really something you “work on”.

I guess you are taking my comments as a criticism of the translations themselves which was not my intent at all.

 

[CSKA1974]

And I really don’t see anything wrong with what he said. I hope every player has that mindset. And if anyone should have that mindset, it should be a Russian player given the country’s history in the sport. Defense (especially for a forward) is instinctual and not really something you “work on”.

I guess you are taking my comments as a criticism of the translations themselves which was not my intent at all.

Not at all. On contrary, I truly enjoy the discussion. I am a conversationalist- I strive to listen and learn, rather than dictate and resent.
When I translate, I do it for the folks on this board. In essence, you are my "customer", and I value your opinion.

 

[deadhead]

And I really don’t see anything wrong with what he said. I hope every player has that mindset. And if anyone should have that mindset, it should be a Russian player given the country’s history in the sport. Defense (especially for a forward) is instinctual and not really something you “work on”.

I guess you are taking my comments as a criticism of the translations themselves which was not my intent at all.

Tell it to Crosby.
Lot's of players have improved on defense, it's not coached a lot at lower levels, especially to offensive stars.

I'd say offense is more instinctual, other than maybe shooting and skating which can be improved with reps, seeing the ice is really a matter of peripheral vision and pattern recognition. That is, as a play unfolds, being able to recognize if a defender is out of position or if your wing has beaten his man to a spot or if the goalie is leaning the wrong way.

Defense is more about watching film and understanding what is happening with different offensive schemes and knowing your responsibilities. Since it's more reactive than offense (i.e., you don't control the action), it's more about proper positioning and knowing what to do when the play unfolds.

And forechecking and backchecking are primarily about effort, that is, do you skate as hard on defense and the forecheck as you do trying to pad your stats on offense.

 

[Alex K]

And I really don’t see anything wrong with what he said. I hope every player has that mindset. And if anyone should have that mindset, it should be a Russian player given the country’s history in the sport. Defense (especially for a forward) is instinctual and not really something you “work on”.

Couturier:
"My first year with Drummondville we went to the Memorial Cup, but I had more of a limited role playing third- and fourth-line minutes. I had Guy Boucher as a coach, so if I wanted to play I needed to be reliable out there. He needed to trust me. The best way to be out there is to gain the trust of your coach. And then coming into the NHL, it was kind of the same situation where we had a stacked lineup in Philly. If I wanted to play some minutes I needed to be reliable."

 

[FLYguy3911]

Couturier:
"My first year with Drummondville we went to the Memorial Cup, but I had more of a limited role playing third- and fourth-line minutes. I had Guy Boucher as a coach, so if I wanted to play I needed to be reliable out there. He needed to trust me. The best way to be out there is to gain the trust of your coach. And then coming into the NHL, it was kind of the same situation where we had a stacked lineup in Philly. If I wanted to play some minutes I needed to be reliable."

Where did I say a player shouldn’t be reliable?

 

[deadhead]

What do you think Couts meant by "reliable?"

 

[CSKA1974]

 

[Magua]

Where did I say a player shouldn’t be reliable?

 

[BritainStix]

But he did not say that. Again, the translation was quite accurate, and Misha did say verbatim: " There is a reason for a statement that the best defense is offense. If you do not give up the puck you do not need to work on defense. I would rather play with the puck"
My opinion, is that every fan will evaluate every interview through his/ hers own biases regardless of translation quality.

Don't you change a damn thing. Most important poster on the board

Defense (especially for a forward) is instinctual and not really something you “work on”.

Not true. Defensive work can be improved with experience and dedication.

Goal scoring is strongly influenced by instinctual play. Knowing where to be separates the good goalscorers from the great.

 

[rinaldo]

And I really don’t see anything wrong with what he said. I hope every player has that mindset. And if anyone should have that mindset, it should be a Russian player given the country’s history in the sport. Defense (especially for a forward) is instinctual and not really something you “work on”.

I guess you are taking my comments as a criticism of the translations themselves which was not my intent at all.

that is funny.

 

[Adtar02]

I am in no position to tell you how to translate these interviews. I appreciate the work you do. My point was more that I don't think Russian phrases translate directly to their English equivalents. I mean the backchecking comments seem to be pretty controversial. I've never heard a hockey player say he's not a good backchecker. It doesn't take much skill to backcheck. I have a feeling as @Here4ThaList alluded to, he meant that he prefers to be on the attack rather than giving up possession and having to chase the play. There was also a case where people thought Zamula, coming off of back surgery and a 7 month layoff, joining the Flyers for the startup (the actual lineup, not the camp) was a distinct possibility.

I almost think that back checking meant more the style of dump and chase as opposed to controlled entries. And let’s be real. The system?? At the ahl and nhl were so different I would expect a lot of players to say I had to learn new things cause I am being used differently.

I also don’t have a problem with him thinking that having the puck means less defending. But that clearly is different from av who wanted dump and chase. As a lot of na coaching believes in.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Not true. Defensive work can be improved with experience and dedication.

Now please tell me how you work on that.

 

[BritainStix]

Now please tell me how you work on that.

Not rocket science. I believe a great man once said "You have to put the work in"

 

[FLYguy3911]

Not rocket science. I believe a great man once said "You have to put the work in"

Considering your response apparently it is rocket science. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Rebels57]

Now please tell me how you work on that.

You can't work on experience but you can become more dedicated to improving your defensive game. It's not just a matter of "trying harder" on the ice either. A lot of it is just studying tape and soaking in what the coachs and your teammates are saying. This leads to an understanding of where to be and when to be there. We have seen lots of forwards improve defensively over the years.

 

[FLYguy3911]

You can't work on experience but you can become more dedicated to improving your defensive game. It's not just a matter of "trying harder" on the ice either. A lot of it is just studying tape and soaking in what the coachs and your teammates are saying. This leads to an understanding of where to be and when to be there. We have seen lots of forwards improve defensively over the years.

This just seems like hockey cliche. You improve by playing. Playing in game situations and game situations in the NHL. Playing defense as a forward is all about instincts. The only way you really develop those instincts is by playing hockey games. You have to have instincts or you are screwed. It's really no different than playing with the puck. You need to be able to process the game quickly. You need to be able to read plays develop. You need to be able to read teammates and opponents. You need to have spatial awareness. Carsen Twarynski can study all of the tape he wants, and listen to all of the coaches and teammates, he's just not going to be good defensively because he doesn't have the baseline feel for the game required to be an effective player.

People talk as if it's a matter of work ethic. If your hands suck you can legitimately work on things to improve in that area. If your skating sucks you can legitimately work on things to improve in that area. If your shot sucks you can legitimately work on things to improve in that area. Unless there is a strength issue, there's not much you can "work on" when it comes to playing without the puck other than continuing to develop your instincts through on ice situations. I mean there's probably a reason why we see a lot more truly great young offensive players compared to truly great young defensive players and I don't think he has anything to do with off-ice or on-ice commitment to one side of the game.

 

[deadhead]

Defense is NOT primarily about instincts, it's about positioning and discipline and effort.
Backchecking is all effort, skate as hard getting back on defense as you do on offense, don't get caught up ice.
Positioning is about studying film, knowing where you're supposed to be given the situation, taking care of your responsibilities.

The problem for someone like Frost is at lower levels he's so skilled offensively he never felt the urgency to improve his off puck play - and he's admitted that he needs to learn how to play without the puck.

Offense is far more instinctive, plays break down and puck handlers improvise.
Defense is about structure, you're supposed to be at "X" point, you then have options depending on what's happening, which player to take, where to position yourself to take away the easy shot and give your goalie the best chance at stopping a harder shot.

Instincts help when structure breaks down, but if you're not where you're supposed to be, all the instincts in the world won't help your teammates who expect you to be at a certain spot.

Think about why players get criticized:
On offense, it's usually failure to see an opportunity develop (make the right pass) or poor shooting or not shooting.
On defense, it's usually failure to get back, taking bad angles or being out of position.

 

[BritainStix]

This just seems like hockey cliche. You improve by playing. Playing in game situations and game situations in the NHL. Playing defense as a forward is all about instincts. The only way you really develop those instincts is by playing hockey games. You have to have instincts or you are screwed. It's really no different than playing with the puck. You need to be able to process the game quickly. You need to be able to read plays develop. You need to be able to read teammates and opponents. You need to have spatial awareness. Carsen Twarynski can study all of the tape he wants, and listen to all of the coaches and teammates, he's just not going to be good defensively because he doesn't have the baseline feel for the game required to be an effective player.

People talk as if it's a matter of work ethic. If your hands suck you can legitimately work on things to improve in that area. If your skating sucks you can legitimately work on things to improve in that area. If your shot sucks you can legitimately work on things to improve in that area. Unless there is a strength issue, there's not much you can "work on" when it comes to playing without the puck other than continuing to develop your instincts through on ice situations. I mean there's probably a reason why we see a lot more truly great young offensive players compared to truly great young defensive players and I don't think he has anything to do with off-ice or on-ice commitment to one side of the game.

The North American game is so regimented that defensive play can be taught to just about any player. Anyone can follow a system blindly, put a stick in the lane and block shots. Thats "good defense". It just requires dedication. When you talk about instinct, great defensive players have an instinct on what a player is going to do, and therefore can proactively put themselves in the right place to disrupt, A.K.A Couturier. You cannot teach what he does, which is why he's a great defensive player. But you can certainly teach Hayes how to block lanes, use his reach to disrupt passes, and to follow a gameplan.

It's exactly the same offensively. You can teach a player to develop a great shot, but you can't teach them the instinct to go to where the puck will be, and not where it is. Thats what seperates good players from great. Gretzky wasnt the best because he had the hardest shot, or the best pass. He was the best because he was three steps ahead of every player on the ice. He knew what defensemen were going to do before they did, and as such absolutely dominated. You cannot teach that.

There's a difference.

 

[Appleyard]