Prospect Info: Round 4, Pick 104: Mikhail Vorobyov, C, Tolpar Ufa (MHL --> KHL)

[freakydallas13]

32 Thoughts: Oilers making serious attempt to get Evander Kane

As we move closer to Evander Kane's decision on where he plays next in the NHL, the Edmonton Oilers are emerging as a serious player for his services.

www.sportsnet.ca

10. Bob Clarke dropped bombs on Cam Janssen and Andy Strickland’s podcast, taking a big run at former Philadelphia GM Ron Hextall. If anything, that confirmed the huge divide between Hextall and the Flyers’ alumni -- a power struggle that played a major factor in Hextall’s firing. My main takeaway from the timing of Clarke’s comments is that the heat is on, and Comcast is deciding what direction the team should go. Clarke would want current GM Chuck Fletcher to rebuild the team if that’s the chosen path. By taking this route, he’s trying to make sure that happens. He’d do anything to defend someone he likes.

11. Asked about Clarke’s comments, one scout laughed, “It was Heiskanen, not Makar. Close enough.”

@Ghosts Beer

 

[deadhead]

Clarke couldn't remember G's name at the podium. Man took too many pucks to the head.

 

[wankstifier]

@Ghosts Beer

The young guy with the “k” in his name

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

@Ghosts Beer

The man himself has posts on this board from back then explaining how it was a two player draft and he'd be happy with either Hischier or Patrick.

 

[freakydallas13]

The man himself has posts on this board from back then explaining how it was a two player draft and he'd be happy with either Hischier or Patrick.

He has also yet to provide a single pre-draft source that a single person in this organization wanted to draft Makar, despite being asked to numerous times.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

@Ghosts Beer

Yeah, and the original report, from years ago, when Patrick was still a Flyer, said the scouting staff was split between Heiskanen and Makar. Regardless, the point is that Patrick wasn't the scouts' choice. And Heiskanen is a heck of a player, too.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Yeah, and the original report, from years ago, when Patrick was still a Flyer, said the scouting staff was split between Heiskanen and Makar. Regardless, the point is that Patrick wasn't the scouts' choice. And Heiskanen is a heck of a player, too.

When was the first time these reports came out?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The man himself has posts on this board from back then explaining how it was a two player draft and he'd be happy with either Hischier or Patrick.

Well, I guess it's a good thing that my full-time job wasn't making the #2 overall pick and having access to a full-time scouting staff and a bevy of information on Patrick's (and other prospects') injury history and other red flags.

But it's flattering you held Hextall to an internet poster standard.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Well, I guess it's a good thing that my full-time job wasn't making the #2 overall pick and having access to a bevy of information on Patrick's (and other prospects') injury history and other red flags.

But it's flattering you held Hextall to an internet poster standard.

I made that statement because you have also said that your opinion on the matter isn't based on hindsight (or bias) which is just not true.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I made that statement because you have also said that your opinion on the matter isn't based on hindsight (or bias) which is just not true.

To my recollection, I wasn't aware of McCagg's article, which came out before the draft and knocked Patrick out of the top 2, and quoted multiple scouts who were down on Patrick for multiple reasons. (I will say, though, that I wanted Hischier over Patrick.)

I wasn't aware that the Flyers' own scouting staff didn't want Patrick at 2.

I didn't have Patrick's medical records. I didn't interview him or his teammates.

In short, Hextall had access to a bevy of more information about Patrick's red flags than I did (including his migraine history on top of all of his other injuries). These red flags were known in the hockey community. Me, I'm a frigging message board poster, not a full-time GM or scout -- it's ridiculous to excuse Hextall based on message boards.

When your own scouting staff wants someone else, and you overrule them, then it's not hindsight.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

To my recollection, I wasn't aware of McCagg's article, which came out before the draft and knocked Patrick out of the top 2, and quoted multiple scouts who were down on Patrick for multiple reasons. (I will say, though, that I wanted Hischier over Patrick.)

I wasn't aware that the Flyers' own scouting staff didn't want Patrick at 2.

I didn't have Patrick's medical records. I didn't interview him or his teammates.

In short, Hextall had access to a bevy of more information about Patrick's red flags than I did (including his migraine history on top of all of his other injuries). These red flags were known in the hockey community. Me, I'm a frigging message board poster, not a full-time GM or scout -- it's ridiculous to excuse Hextall based on message boards.

When your own scouting staff wants someone else, and you overrule them, then it's not hindsight.

So then it was with hindsight that you decided that you didn't want Patrick. Thank you.

Can you answer my other question of when these reports came out that the Flyers scouts wanted Makar/Heiskanen instead before I continue? Answering that question will help me show why the Flyers narrative is hindsight bullshit propaganda.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

When was the first time these reports came out?

Here's Meltzer in September 2020:

It's unfair to judge Patrick against players whom Ron Hextall chose to bypass with the second overall pick in 2017. He can only be judged fairly on his own merits. Patrick was not a unanimous top 2 pick internally, but context is needed. This was based on the rapid Draft-year rise of a defense prospect vs. Patrick's injury-affected Draft year. It was never a belief that Patrick did not projected as a fine NHL center who offensive and two-way upside as well as good size.

HockeyBuzz.com - Bill Meltzer - Quick Hits and Musings: Hart, Patrick, Flyers Warriors & Flyers Alumni

Hm, what defenseman had a "rapid Draft-year rise"?

San Fillippo in January 2021:

There’s a reason he was picked No. 2 overall in the 2017 NHL entry draft, even if the consensus in the Flyers draft room was to go with a defenseman like Miro Heiskanen or Cale Makar. Then-GM Ron Hextall went against the grain and took the big center who came into the previous season as the consensus No. 1 prospect available in the draft.

Nolan Patrick Officially Back with the Flyers, but He Doesn't Really Want to Talk About It

Meltzer in July 2021:

In hindsight, was Hexy wrong to overrule his scouts? Probably. While there was no specific consensus between Patrick, Heiskanen and Makar, apparently enough scouts to form a consensus would have advocated for either of the latter two (apparently with Heiskanen being the preference because Makar was a Junior-A player, which entailed more of a leap of faith). Ron felt differently, strongly wanting the big righthanded center who'd been the virtual unanimous No. 1 candidate leaguewide heading into 2016-17.

The concerns about Patrick, apart from injury, were as follows:

* His 2016-17 was not as good as his 2015-16 season. Not just statistically but in terms of consistency. Was it the sports hernia or had others bypassed him? Hischier was one who bypassed him on many lists. Others? That was up for debate. Keep in mind that Patrick is a late birthday player. Had he been born on Sept 15, 1998 and not Sept 19 of that year, he'd have been eligible for the 2016 Draft (and still would have been a lottery player, although not at the very top).

* A tendency in his Draft-eligible year to fall back too often on a perimeter game. That worked in the WHL because he was physically mature already and more gifted than his opponents. Many thought it was just the product of playing through the first sports hernia surgery. But he's shown the same thing for long stretches in the NHL.

* He didn't interview well at the Draft Combine. That's not make or break.

HockeyBuzz.com - Forums - Bill Meltzer: Free Agency Day 1: Flyers recap and analysis

www.hockeybuzz.com

The first time it came out was via SanFilippo tweet in 2020, I believe. Though I can't find the tweet, this tweet thread has ASF confirming it:

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Here's Meltzer in September 2020:

HockeyBuzz.com - Bill Meltzer - Quick Hits and Musings: Hart, Patrick, Flyers Warriors & Flyers Alumni

Hm, what defenseman had a "rapid Draft-year rise"?

San Fillippo in January 2021:

Nolan Patrick Officially Back with the Flyers, but He Doesn't Really Want to Talk About It

Meltzer in July 2021:

HockeyBuzz.com - Forums - Bill Meltzer: Free Agency Day 1: Flyers recap and analysis

www.hockeybuzz.com

The first time it came out was via SanFilippo tweet in 2020, I believe. Though I can't find the tweet, this tweet thread has ASF confirming it:

You are in fact correct that it was 2020. It happened to be in September during which the Stanley Cup Final was going on and the Dallas Stars were participating which, of course, means Miro Heiskanen was playing and playing well.

For some further context the Flyers had a fairly new regime in place which admittedly have no connection to Nolan Patrick other than him just sitting out a year on their watch. The Flyers also have a person that is very high up in the organization who has a modus operandi that has gone on for years of slandering people through the media because he's a vengeful egotistical son of a bitch. Now keep in mind that we had not heard a single peep about any of this up to this point.

What better way to find a way to place blame on the old regime (who locked them out) and make the organization look good than doing something like that? You're eating up the hindsight made up propaganda that they are feeding you.

That is without getting into the fact that there's always disagreements in draft rooms and there's always red flags with basically every single prospect ever or that flimsiness that it was Heiskanen back then and now it's Makar.

 

[freakydallas13]

To my recollection, I wasn't aware of McCagg's article, which came out before the draft and knocked Patrick out of the top 2, and quoted multiple scouts who were down on Patrick for multiple reasons. (I will say, though, that I wanted Hischier over Patrick.)

I wasn't aware that the Flyers' own scouting staff didn't want Patrick at 2.

I didn't have Patrick's medical records. I didn't interview him or his teammates.

In short, Hextall had access to a bevy of more information about Patrick's red flags than I did (including his migraine history on top of all of his other injuries). These red flags were known in the hockey community. Me, I'm a frigging message board poster, not a full-time GM or scout -- it's ridiculous to excuse Hextall based on message boards.

When your own scouting staff wants someone else, and you overrule them, then it's not hindsight.

You keep saying that McCagg listed Patrick outside the top 2 as if it some damning condemnation that the Flyers reached for him when there were huge question marks around Patrick's health.

But McCagg only knocked him down to 5 in his rankings, and wrote that he is "...a no brainer at 4th or 5th", so clearly McCagg still thought Patrick was a top prospect still. As did literally every other ranking pre-draft. Having a player most sources think is 2nd and one person thinks is a no brainer 2-3 spots later isn't the huge gap you imply it is, and trying to say the scouts knew he would bust is hindsight bias, pure and simple.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You keep saying that McCagg listed Patrick outside the top 2 as if it some damning condemnation that the Flyers reached for him when there were huge question marks around Patrick's health.

But McCagg only knocked him down to 5 in his rankings, and wrote that he is "...a no brainer at 4th or 5th", so clearly McCagg still thought Patrick was a top prospect still. As did literally every other ranking pre-draft. Having a player most sources think is 2nd and one person thinks is a no brainer 2-3 spots later isn't the huge gap you imply it is, and trying to say the scouts knew he would bust is hindsight bias, pure and simple.

McCagg valuted Makar above Patrick because he thought Makar was better. He said that he thought Makar might be a "home run" and end up "the best player from this draft."

McCagg quoted multiple *NHL scouts* and *junior coaches* who were down on Patrick for various reasons, from his draft-season play and effort, to his personality and character/selfishness issues, to injury questions.

But aside from McCagg, and the scouts and coaches he quoted, Hextall's own scouts didn't want Patrick. Point is, in the hockey world there were plenty of questions about Patrick at the time of the draft, not just in hindsight.

But whatever. I'm wasting my time typing into a black hole, You've made up your mind that it's all a grand conspiracy. So you do you. I'm not cluttering the board any further rehashing something that's been known for years.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If Flyers scouts were so good they got that right when the whole league had it wrong, it means that they weren't so incompetent that they drafted a pile of poor talent and all those high prospect pool rankings were accurate. So the team is following a wretched development process after all.

 

[freakydallas13]

McCagg valuted Makar above Patrick because he thought Makar was better. He said that he thought Makar might be a "home run" and end up "the best player from this draft."

McCagg quoted multiple *NHL scouts* and *junior coaches* who were down on Patrick for various reasons, from his draft-season play and effort, to his personality and character/selfishness issues, to injury questions.

But aside from McCagg, and the scouts and coaches he quoted, Hextall's own scouts didn't want Patrick. Point is, in the hockey world there were plenty of questions about Patrick at the time of the draft, not just in hindsight.

But whatever. I'm wasting my time typing into a black hole, You've made up your mind that it's all a grand conspiracy. So you do you. I'm not cluttering the board any further rehashing something that's been known for years.

Again, McCagg said Patrick was still a no brainer at 4th or 5th overall, so he couldn't have hated Patrick that much like you keep saying. Drafting a player rated 4th/5th at second is not a huge reach, despite your best efforts to infer it is (never mind that literally every other ranking had him top 2).

Where are these quotes from scouts PRE-DRAFT they wanted Makar over Patrick? Where are the same quotes from anyone in the Flyers organization? Do they even exist? Because if you can't provide any, your entire argument falls apart.

 

[GKJ]

How did this discussion get into the thread of a player who has been gone for like 3 years?

 

[Magua]

As if this contrarian revisionist history isn't rich enough, McCagg is cited -- the contrarian to end all contrarians of scouts. Just adds to the flavor really.