Speculation: Roster Turn Over

ricky0034

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Jun 8, 2010
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Ken Holland will keep signing veteran players until the kids show they are ready to be full time NHL players. You can't give them all roster spots without any prior pro experience. THere's no history there. Let's say they are all given roster spots and quickly show they aren't ready for the NHL. Then what?

I feel like posts like this kind of miss the point

nobody(well mostly) wants these guys to be "given roster spots",the problem is Holland is nothing if not stubborn and inflexible when it comes to this stuff

if Holland was open to the idea of benching an Ericsson or whatever to clear up space this wouldn't be a problem but we all know that won't happen,if these guys look ready we're quickly thrown into a situation of awkwardly hoping for an injury while bottom pairing guys who will never be anything more than that play every night
 
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Zetterberg4Captain

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Ken Holland will keep signing veteran players until the kids show they are ready to be full time NHL players. You can't give them all roster spots without any prior pro experience. THere's no history there. Let's say they are all given roster spots and quickly show they aren't ready for the NHL. Then what?

Who did winnipeg trade or bench for Morrissey last season as an example?

How did a team signficantly better and deeper than us right find room for him in their top four?
 

Stephen

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In Toronto, the Leafs signed a lot of junk veterans on the even of promoting the Big Three and others full time. But the key was being ruthless in actually dumping those veterans when push came to shove.
 

Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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I feel like posts like this kind of miss the point

nobody(well mostly) wants these guys to be "given roster spots",the problem is Holland is nothing if not stubborn and inflexible when it comes to this stuff

if Holland was open to the idea of benching an Ericsson or whatever to clear up space this wouldn't be a problem but we all know that won't happen,if these guys look ready we're quickly thrown into a situation of awkwardly hoping for an injury while bottom pairing guys who will never be anything more than that play every night

Didn't answer the question.

Who did winnipeg trade or bench for Morrissey last season as an example?

How did a team signficantly better and deeper than us right find room for him in their top four?

Who the f*** cares about Winnipeg?
 

Invictus12

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Aug 1, 2010
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You kill roster flexibility when you give yourself fewer slots by jamming it up with vets.


I think we have more than enough players who can fill that role. I don't think Vanek is going to make much difference. There are plenty of hard workers on the team. Plenty of veterans. High skill guys who've been around for years. We always trot this out every single season as justification. I don't see it.


No, extra players means extra options. Vets as anyone can be traded, waived, sat in the press box and be injured. In any case you have options. What happens when you don't and someone severely under performs or injured? Do you trade futures for immediate help even though you're rebuilding? Sell a quarter for two dimes? Do you call up a guy who has no business to be in the NHL? What if there's 3 or 4 injuries? Hold back the whole roster as a result? How does that help development?

I'm not sure of the point of signing Vanek myself. My best guess, it's because Z's future is up in the air. Whatever the reason though, we are starving for goal scoring and Vanek most likely provides that again. It's also a one year deal so he's hardly here for a prolonged future and might just be seen as holding a spot now.

Hard workers can vary. Smith, I think was a hard worker but, I don't know if this organization failed to guide him or he's just that thick headed that held him back from being a very valuable player. He certainly had the tools. Vanek often looks like he's not doing anything but he's effective in his own right. He might not chase the puck and burns his wheels to the max but he reads the situation and knows where to be.

Half this board also goes nuts at these signings only to discover that the player they wanted on the roster instead just can't keep up.
 

Claypool

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Jan 12, 2009
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Ok fine

Do you believe above all else that so long as a prospect earns his spot in camp he will be on the team?

I think there are a variety of factors teams consider. I'm sure Zetterberg and Datsyuk had a lot of say about Larkin being on the team. Burning a year off a player's ELC because they had an impressive nine games when they could run out of gas midway through the season is a big risk. The Oilers learned that lesson with Draisaitl. Then you also have to factor in the amount of ice time they'll get versus being in juniors of the AHL.

The Red Wings motto has always been "get here when you're ready." I don't see that changing anytime soon, even if they are going through a rebuild.
 

Henkka

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Who did winnipeg trade or bench for Morrissey last season as an example?

How did a team signficantly better and deeper than us right find room for him in their top four?

At 2016-17 start of the season, RFA Trouba was sidelined without a contract. When Trouba finally signed a contract, Myers had already injured season ending (played only 11 games).

Their TOP4 was missing 1 guy the whole season, so Morrissey could play a full season. And was pretty good.

Being good helps, after you get the opportunity.

Josh Morrissey played 1 NHL game at same aged as Cholowski and Hronek are now. Comparable season inserting in NHL would be 2019-20 season.

What comes to the Jets, AHL Best rookie defenceman Sami Niku (Hronek was the 2nd best, as year younger) did the same last year. Got 1 NHL game as year older than Cholowski and Hronek are now.
 
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Pavels Dog

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I feel like posts like this kind of miss the point

nobody(well mostly) wants these guys to be "given roster spots",the problem is Holland is nothing if not stubborn and inflexible when it comes to this stuff

if Holland was open to the idea of benching an Ericsson or whatever to clear up space this wouldn't be a problem but we all know that won't happen,if these guys look ready we're quickly thrown into a situation of awkwardly hoping for an injury while bottom pairing guys who will never be anything more than that play every night
A big problem on this board though is that people think Holland is the one making the micro decisions on who plays and who sits.

You know why Ericsson, Kronwall etc. haven't been benched previously? Because we've had no better options to win hockey games. And coaches care about winning hockey games, they are not thinking "oh maybe I should play this 19 year old because 5 years from now he might be better than these veterans".

If a kid or two prove themselves to be better options for winning hockey games than a couple of veterans, those kids will play. And veterans will sit. This really isn't complicated.

Looking at only the Blashill era, there is tons of evidence that the kids WILL come up very quickly if they are ready, if not straight out of training camp. He's even willing to do stuff that really isn't great for the development of a kid, like playing AA 5-10 minutes per game, as long as he thinks it gives the team a better chance to win.
 

Henkka

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That Winnipeg path for Josh Morrissey:

2013-14, 18-year old, WHL
2014-15, 19-year-old, WHL
2015-16, 20-year-old, AHL season at Moose (+1 NHL game) this is where Cholowski is now. Starting his first AHL season, just like Morrissey did at same age.
2016-17, 21-year old, full NHL season
2017-18, 22-year old, full NHL season

Hronek is 0,5 years older than Cholowski, but already completed his AHL season. So is he 0,5 years ahead of Morrissey's path.
 

lomekian

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Oct 28, 2013
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Another factor that the less optimistic of our posters fail to recognise is that the wings are in a fundamentally different position to almost every other rebuilding team.

Because the wings roster had every single drop of blood squeezed out of the stone (and achieved the longest competing window of the modern era - even if you think we stopped competing before Lidstrom retired), when the playoff run ending became inevitable, we found ourselves with an old roster, primarily made up of supporting players of no great value, or great players either passed their best or hobbled by injury or both.

There is no doubt that this disadvantageous position for a rebuild was exacerbated by chasing the playoff streak record (I agree with the organisation that it was a prize worth aiming for, but I know I'm in the minority) and the failure of any of our award winning d-men to develop to anything like the level their junior careers suggested (and we can take turns in blaming Holland, Nill, Fraser, Babcock etc etc).

However, the point is, having hit somewhere near the bottom, and with a roster made up of mostly has beens, never was's and never will be's, we don't want to be rushing the rebuild by getting all the kids up as soon as possible. The worst thing would be for DRW to NOT stagger the introduction of these kids. We don't have enough talent or balance for our current assets to become contenders in the short to medium term, and we don't want all these kids to peak contract wise and development wise too close together. Quite apart from the gamble of breaking players by bringing them up too soon, we simply don't have the talent in D or in net in the pipeline to hope that this team can be real contenders before reaching cap hell if all our young forwards become regular 80 game roster players within 3 years of each other, particularly with some of the lengthy contracts that will not be traded away painlessly.

If you look at all the winning teams in the last couple of decades, they all had distinct waves of core players, bar perhaps Pittsburgh, who were gifted 1 generational center and 1 franchise center among a whole flurry of high picks before the lottery system changed.

People may point to Toronto or Edmonton if either kick on, but both, like Pittsburgh, had enough saleable assets to trade for positions of need to kick start things (largely the direct result of high picks following multiple years of utter incompetence), quite apart from a reliance on successive kind draft lotteries.

Now if more of our prospects were sure fire core players, it would be different, but with no top 5 picks in about 3 decades, and only 2 top 10's, we simply don't have enough sure fire guys to go all in.

While we all want to see teenagers tearing it up for us, the approach for the moment has to be slow and steady.

Once we get a couple more years down the line, with most of the bad contracts gone or nearly over, with our current roster kids nearing their peaks, a handful of other kids established in the NHL and some more drafts with highish picks (and extra picks each year) then it makes sense to be more aggressive at bringing kids in straight from the draft or draft +1. At present we need most of our kids to be top 6 or top 4 d. Looking at our improving prospect pool, in 2-3 years time, we'll be happy enough if the are just good NHL-ers (as long our recent and forthcoming 1st round picks are up to snuff re their draft position).

Of course, I don't know if this is the organisation's thinking. But it would be mine.

There are a lot of exciting teams around the league who have relatively small windows due to cap issues stemming from rushing things. Given our current position, we need to be more strategic.
 
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njx9

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Half this board also goes nuts at these signings only to discover that the player they wanted on the roster instead just can't keep up.

And half the board thinks that if a guy "can't keep up" you'll somehow be worse off than the 5th worst team in the NHL.

A big problem on this board though is that people think Holland is the one making the micro decisions on who plays and who sits.

Holland employs and oversees the dude who does. If he disagreed, it would be fixed. We're not talking about in-game adjustments, here.
 
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Pavels Dog

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Holland employs and oversees the dude who does. If he disagreed, it would be fixed. We're not talking about in-game adjustments, here.
What is there to fix in regards to this? We're speculating about next season and some people imply that Holland won't allow Kronner/Ericsson to be scratched. I'm saying the GM doesn't have a say in that, or shouldn't have. The coach plays who he thinks will give him the best chance to win. If the kids are better, they will play.
 

njx9

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What is there to fix in regards to this?

Is that a serious question?

We're speculating about next season and some people imply that Holland won't allow Kronner/Ericsson to be scratched. I'm saying the GM doesn't have a say in that, or shouldn't have. The coach plays who he thinks will give him the best chance to win. If the kids are better, they will play.

The GM absolutely has a say, and absolutely should. He's the coach's boss. If he thinks the coach is making poor decisions, he should either discuss with the coach, or fire the coach. I understand that you want to act like he's just the innocent victim, but the buck stops on someone's desk, and it sure as **** isn't Jeff Blashill's.
 

raymond23

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Helm
Nielsen
Nyquist
Vanek
Ericsson
DeKeyser
Kronwall

Replacing these dudes with kids by the beginning of next season would be a really solid start.
 

Pavels Dog

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Is that a serious question?
yes. what kids have been held back during Blashill's tenure despite clearly being better options than veterans?

The GM absolutely has a say, and absolutely should. He's the coach's boss. If he thinks the coach is making poor decisions, he should either discuss with the coach, or fire the coach. I understand that you want to act like he's just the innocent victim, but the buck stops on someone's desk, and it sure as **** isn't Jeff Blashill's.
Like with all things, yes the GM is ultimately responsible. But that is different from saying "Holland won't allow Kronwall/Ericsson to be scratched".
 
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njx9

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yes. what kids have been held back during Blashill's tenure despite clearly being better options than veterans?

I'd like the goalposts to stay precisely where they were when I responded in the first place, thank you. No part of any of my comments has implied that I agree or disagree that "kids have been held back", only that saying it's not up to the GM is incorrect.

Like with all things, yes the GM is ultimately responsible. But that is different from saying "Holland won't allow Kronwall/Ericsson to be scratched".

Only in that you baselessly disagree with the equally baseless assertion that KH has said precisely that. There's no honest reason why the latter doesn't follow from the former.
 

raymond23

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This DeKeyser hate is atrocius. Funny how caphit change changes totally the opinion of a player.

It's not the caphit, it's the player.

Guy forgot how to skate with the puck or keep his head up. Not sure what we're teaching our defenseman but it's not working.
 

Pavels Dog

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I'd like the goalposts to stay precisely where they were when I responded in the first place, thank you. No part of any of my comments has implied that I agree or disagree that "kids have been held back", only that saying it's not up to the GM is incorrect.



Only in that you baselessly disagree with the equally baseless assertion that KH has said precisely that. There's no honest reason why the latter doesn't follow from the former.
Poster said "if Holland was open to benching Ericsson".
I said "Holland doesn't make those decisions".
You said "He employs the guys that does and if he disagree it would be fixed".
I asked what is there to fix?

The entire discussion is about whether or not the kids will play if they are better than the veterans. I say that in Blashill's tenure the kids have been brought up quickly and mostly gotten good minutes. I see no reason to think that will stop as our prospect improve in quantity and quality while our veterans get worse. You kinda lost me at your second paragraph, but I find it a ridiculous notion that a GM doesn't allow the coach to play exactly who he wants to play. If he wants a kid to sit as 7th D, yeah the GM might say "I'm gonna send him down then". If results are bad, the GM can say "you're fired". But if Blashill comes out for Game 1 and say "Nielsen and Kronwall are healthy scratches", no way would Holland stop him from doing that.
 

Henkka

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It's not the caphit, it's the player.

Guy forgot how to skate with the puck or keep his head up. Not sure what we're teaching our defenseman but it's not working.

Team is worse, player is the same. More time at defensive zone etc. The load grows in a losing team.

Datsyuk leaving impacted most on DeKeyser's advanced stats, where does 50% of the hate come from.


I can already predict than in 2-3 years, when this team will get better and starts winning, people in here suddenly forget DeKeyser being "bad".
 

SCD

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We get accustomed to watching prospects improve for several years after they make the team. I don't think DeKeyser is any better or worse than when he signed....just the hype is gone and the cap hit has increased.

This is the first college graduate that has joined the team in long time. Maybe we should not expect much improvement in a 23 year old. It will be interesting to see how Pope pans out.
 

Shaman464

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He hasn't been any good in like 3 years. Bad players are usually not liked, that's correct.

DDK was always going to be a #4-5 guy. The team was in desperation to fill glaring holes in the defense pushed him into a defacto #2 slot. He did okay for awhile, not great, but okay, and then the wheels came off. Its not fair to call him bad, anymore than its fair to call Helm bad. The hammer isn't bad when an idiot uses it to try to drive a screw. There is a lot of asset misuse by this organization which becomes kind of self-fulfilling because those players then get contracts above their ability and then are used in those positions they aren't good enough for to justify their pay.
 

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