Speculation: Roster Turn Over

[Henkka]

I'd argue that, of the veterans we'd really be bumping, nothing of value would be lost. If we waive Nielsen and someone claims him, we're not losing anything of value, and we're not really making the team measurably worse than it already was. There isn't a move we can make that keeps this team from being a bottom 10 performer, and if losing a vet who has no trade value (but who someone might take on for free) makes us a bottom 9 team instead, well, that's not something that gives me any pause.

I mean, again, the team is bad. It's bad if we dump all of the Hroneks and Cholos and Zadinas in GR< or if we keep them in Detroit. There's no scenario that suddenly makes this a great team. I prioritize making it better in the long term at the chance of making it slightly worse today.

And again, I say all of this in light of whatever the internal development teams think is best for each player. If they think it's better to bring up Ras and get him as much NHL time as possible, that's what I want, even if it means losing a mediocre vet "for free".

Lou Lamoriello is doing now the same at Islanders. Hoarding veterans around kids to build a professional environment. Same Filppula we were interested went there. Same praises about his mentorship. Sounds familiar? Is he also a total idiot?

Yeah, team is bad. that won't change soon. Losing a guy like Nielsen would be educational loss for future kids. Stop thinking from individual vs. individual way and think the learning environment. People still won't get this thing what has been Red Wings bread and butter for decades.

Kids will be up. Vets will mentor them. We need both. At some point, the kid steals the job from the vet. If he won't, he is not enough good or he is not trying enough = lazy.

Repeat. Let the circle go around and around.

 

[shanman]

Lou Lamoriello is doing now the same at Islanders. Hoarding veterans around kids to build a professional environment. Same Filppula we were interested went there. Same praises about his mentorship. Sounds familiar? Is he also a total idiot?

Yeah, team is bad. that won't change soon. Losing a guy like Nielsen would be educational loss for future kids. Stop thinking from individual vs. individual way and think the learning environment. People still won't get this thing what has been Red Wings bread and butter for decades.

Kids will be up. Vets will mentor them. We need both. At some point, the kid steals the job from the vet. If he won't, he is not enough good or he is not trying enough = lazy.

Repeat. Let the circle go around and around.

my only issue with this is that we already have plenty of vets-especially on the defense side. Kronwall, Daley, Ericsson, DDK, Jensen....that is plenty already on the backend to mentor the new guys coming up. Bringing back a guy who is probably the worst defender of them all is not a good vet teaching move imo. Vanek doesn't bother me as much considering i hope we just trade nyq and this is Z's last year and we already have enough spots to bring on a couple youth players at forward without much wheeling and dealing.

 

[njx9]

Lou Lamoriello is doing now the same at Islanders. Hoarding veterans around kids to build a professional environment. Same Filppula we were interested went there. Same praises about his mentorship. Sounds familiar? Is he also a total idiot?

I'm not sure where the "total idiot" bit came from. I'd also argue that other people doing the same thing doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do.

Yeah, team is bad. that won't change soon. Losing a guy like Nielsen would be educational loss for future kids. Stop thinking from individual vs. individual way and think the learning environment. People still won't get this thing what has been Red Wings bread and butter for decades.

Has it? The team had failed to develop a single top 6 or top 4 player for almost 20 years, prior to Larkin. I don't think that says much about the "bread and butter".

Kids will be up. Vets will mentor them. We need both. At some point, the kid steals the job from the vet. If he won't, he is not enough good or he is not trying enough = lazy.

This is the issue, though. How many vets do we need to mentor the kids? 20? 23? 10? At some point, you get diminishing returns on the amount of "veteran leadership" you've got, and you're doing a really poor job when every June, you have to sign a bunch more FAs because you're normal vets don't provide enough of it.

Like, how additive is Daley, compared to Kronwall? How additive is Nielsen, compared to Z?

*shrug* I think some of you really overestimate what these guys are offering and how valuable it is.

 

[Pavels Dog]

This is the issue, though. How many vets do we need to mentor the kids? 20? 23? 10? At some point, you get diminishing returns on the amount of "veteran leadership" you've got, and you're doing a really poor job when every June, you have to sign a bunch more FAs because you're normal vets don't provide enough of it.

Like, how additive is Daley, compared to Kronwall? How additive is Nielsen, compared to Z?

*shrug* I think some of you really overestimate what these guys are offering and how valuable it is.

Can't act as though every veteran was signed just for leadership.

But when it comes to leadership and mentorship you can't put a number on how many veterans you need. It's all about group dynamics and creating a lockerroom where bad habits and bad attitudes don't really survive.

 

[shanman]

Can't act as though every veteran was signed just for leadership.

But when it comes to leadership and mentorship you can't put a number on how many veterans you need. It's all about group dynamics and creating a lockerroom where bad habits and bad attitudes don't really survive.

although i don't think green has a bad attitude, his lack of defense is a pretty bad "habit" i wouldn't want the kids picking up on haha.

 

[Winger98]

WRT the Nielsen signing, it was after the year Z returned from back surgery, hit a wall around January, and looked very much like his career was either going to be shorter than expected or that he'd be moved to wing. A bit of a desperate move, and in hindsight we should have bought low on someone like Sam Gagner for a year, but at the time we were very much looking at a club with Larkin, Glendening, and Helm as the guys we could reliably put at center.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Does the franchise and its philosophy deserve any of the blame for our lack of development of a single top 3 dman since 2000?

Is it just that they were all either lazy or no good to begin with?

Is it possible, even for a second, that the team owns part of the disappointment?

 

[Winger98]

although i don't think green has a bad attitude, his lack of defense is a pretty bad "habit" i wouldn't want the kids picking up on haha.

To be fair, I think Green tries. He just isn't that great at it. The biggest knock on kids, if they're good enough to make it this far, is AA's issue - they don't show up reliably.

 

[Invictus12]

If your CFO gives you the highest performing analysts in the company, and you sideline them so that your mediocre best friend can do the work, and then your team falls to the bottom of the productivity barrel, you'll either be told to re-assign work, or you'll be told to find new employment.

Did you really take from that that players should be rushed?

"the only place you can develop is in GR. "

I've bolded the key word in what I said, and I'd appreciate it if you argued with what I said, instead of what you wish I'd said. The poster implied that the developmental league was the only place a player could develop. That's fundamentally untrue.

And we're done here. I have no interest in discussing anything with someone who twice dives immediately into personal attacks.

Yeah well I atleast do it straight forward and will stand by it. You on the other will start it and then cry about it. Nor do I I have appreciation when someone twists what I say and do it because they can't hold their opinion to court. Even here in this post, 'the poster implied' crap that you keep on spewing.... If I have to guess, its a result of realizing your position was ignorant but the ego can't cope with it like and adult should.

 

[Invictus12]

Again, I fully agree that the GM shouldn't be messing with game day lines, or minutiae like that. But I think he should be taking an active role in ensuring that the decisions being made are what's best for the team, and not what's best for the coach's perception of his continued employment.

A coaches continued employment is tied directly to the best interests of the team. If his perceptions are constantly wrong then you fire him. However, if you're going to overrule his decisions,m you might as well not need a coach to begin with. His job is to see whats needed to win games. If he needs more speed, he'd prefer playing a guy thats faster. He needs a pest, he'll use a pest... On and on. It's not always looking at a statistical sheet and especially in this case, a potential statistical sheet.

 

[Invictus12]

my only issue with this is that we already have plenty of vets-especially on the defense side. Kronwall, Daley, Ericsson, DDK, Jensen....that is plenty already on the backend to mentor the new guys coming up. Bringing back a guy who is probably the worst defender of them all is not a good vet teaching move imo. Vanek doesn't bother me as much considering i hope we just trade nyq and this is Z's last year and we already have enough spots to bring on a couple youth players at forward without much wheeling and dealing.

At the same time, none of this means we have kids that are ready to be up yet either. Surely, they will get looks and if they seem to fit and ready for the big show, they'll probably stay up or get a full time gig next season.

 

[vladdy16]

Did you really take from that that players should be rushed?

"the only place you can develop is in GR. "

I've bolded the key word in what I said, and I'd appreciate it if you argued with what I said, instead of what you wish I'd said. The poster implied that the developmental league was the only place a player could develop. That's fundamentally untrue.

The poster didn't imply that, and you're being ridiculous. If you're going to be a stickler for context, and are going to use other peoples opinions as ammunition, you should get it right.

But really I think it'd be easier to just share your own thoughts, and throw some 'imo's' out there, to get the conversation running smoothly without expecting a group of us laymen to reach some kind of conclusive collective truth about how a professional sports team could be run

 

[njx9]

The poster didn't imply that, and you're being ridiculous. If you're going to be a stickler for context, and are going to use other peoples opinions as ammunition, you should get it right.

The other poster suggested I look up "developmental" in his implication. So yes, he did. Pointedly.

But really I think it'd be easier to just share your own thoughts, and throw some 'imo's' out there, to get the conversation running smoothly without expecting a group of us laymen to reach some kind of conclusive collective truth about how a professional sports team could be run

Ok? I have no clue what you're referencing. But you're free to simply not respond if my comments don't meet your lofty standards for discussion.