Roster Speculation 2014-2015, Part VI

[Jame]

Kovalchuk scored at a 107 point pace over the last 33 games of the season, where the devils went 22-8-3. He then tied for the playoff lead in goals and was one point shy of tying for the overall scoring lead. It's possible you attribute some of this success to the support of winger Zach Parise but I don't think that really helps the narrative

i dont remember him being at all the post season "carry the team" player you are making him out to be.

but, his team worst goal differential is pretty impressive... at least there's the PP.

 

[FamilyGuy716]

One other thought about McDavid over Eichel. Wouldn't free agents be more inclined to come to us if we have McDavid instead of Eichel? At least in the beginning few years before everybody knows how good they truly are?

 

[sabrebuild]

Certainly Kovalchuk's torrid streak had nothing to do with it

Not that I want to crap on Kovalchuk's achievements, but that might be the only time in the last ten years that you could even moderately argue a winger was the driving force of a cup team. Though they did lose to a team with excellent centers.

 

[enthusiast]

i dont remember him being at all the post season "carry the team" player you are making him out to be.

but, his team worst goal differential is pretty impressive... at least there's the PP.

I'm sure you don't remember it, that's why the actual evidence is useful.

Dismissing the importance of nearly a third of a given game out of hand because it occurs with uneven teams is absurd

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

If I'm trading McDavid for Eichel, I want Eichel + a stud then I want to hurt your team and I want your top prospect

I want Eichel + Hall + Nurse
Eichel + Kessel + Reilly
Eichel + Skinner +Faulk

If you get McDavid, I'm expecting to see you in June at some point, and I want to rip your heart out before that happens

then we're gonna swap 1sts and mines going to be top 5 protected

in other words I'm not interested in moving him.

 

[enthusiast]

Not that I want to crap on Kovalchuk's achievements, but that might be the only time in the last ten years that you could even moderately argue a winger was the driving force of a cup team. Though they did lose to a team with excellent centers.

They lost to a team with two selke quality players, a norris quality player, and a vezina quality player.

there's no magic formula where you plug in certain position players

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Kovalchuk's production was a piece of the puzzle for sure, but so was the arrival of Adam Henrique, who was the catalyst for the crazy looks at forward that enabled so much of their success. It let them guarantee a mismatch for one of Kovy/Parise/Elias at all times.

That Devils' team was a really democratic effort. Their fourth line won them multiple games. Even Alex Ponikarovski did meaningful **** that spring.

 

[sabrebuild]

One other thought about McDavid over Eichel. Wouldn't free agents be more inclined to come to us if we have McDavid instead of Eichel? At least in the beginning few years before everybody knows how good they truly are?

I don't think that will be much of a factor for fa. Terms and money will be the biggest factor, not to many vets are joining a team based on a star rookie. Even the Pittsburgh team Crosby's rookie year, was gathered with Lemieux in charge and playing.

I bet a bigger difference will be McDavid gets more of the media attention as a rookie than Eichel.

 

[sabrebuild]

They lost to a team with two selke quality players, a norris quality player, and a vezina quality player.

there's no magic formula where you plug in certain position players

Is it possible that there is a reason why center's generally get the Selke in today's game, and that maybe, like in football, there are some positions that are inherently more important than others?

 

[enthusiast]

It was a piece of the puzzle for sure, but so was the arrival of Adam Henrique, who was the catalyst for the crazy looks at forward that enabled so much of their success. It let them guarantee a mismatch for one of Kovy/Parise/Elias at all times.

That Devils' team was a really democratic effort. Their fourth line won them multiple games. Even Alex Ponikarovski did meaningful ****.

You'll never find a cup winner that's centered around one guy, so perhaps my choice of language was poor. Kovalchuk was the primary guy for that entire half season stretch, though.

 

[enthusiast]

Is it possible that there is a reason why center's generally get the Selke in today's game, and that maybe, like in football, there are some positions that are inherently more important than others?

scheme and confirmation bias tbh, Marian Hossa weeps

 

[jc17]

Scoring. Wingers. Do. Not. Matter (until your centers and defense are in order).

I agree .

I want Eichel and Hall (maybe more). A center and a winger.

I never said anything about getting rid of defense and never said anything about not getting a center.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

I can tell you the winger I want

Jagr - McEichel - Girgensons

 

[stokes84]

Not that I want to crap on Kovalchuk's achievements, but that might be the only time in the last ten years that you could even moderately argue a winger was the driving force of a cup team. Though they did lose to a team with excellent centers.

The previous two Conn Smythe winners are wingers.

 

[stokes84]

Of course you need to be strong down the middle and on defense and in goal. But this idea that wingers don't matter is tired.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

You'll never find a cup winner that's centered around one guy, so perhaps my choice of language was poor. Kovalchuk was the primary guy for that entire half season stretch, though.

Two things:

1. The Devils traded for Kovalchuk in a much different organizational state than us. If we're a one or two round team once our core shakes itself out and the best talent on the market is a winger, **** it, let's ship our versions of Oduya and Bergfors with a late first for that guy.

2. It's easier to cost-control or replace a two-way winger who plays well with your go to center, than the other way around. And then you're stuck paying Travis Zajac for Kovalchuk-inflated production.

I hate the idea of trading high variance assets for a scoring winger until we know what we have in the assets I outlined in the first post.

 

[enthusiast]

Let me put it this way:

We can all agree that for a team with one elite caliber player to win a cup is nearly impossible, yes? I'd argue it's even difficult for teams with two.
So once you start getting into teams with three, have the high quality wingers of this age ever had that?

Ovechkin- Nah, unless you count Mike Green which is debatable.

Kovalchuk- addressed, no. Hossa was it.

Alfie- Debatable. Chara/Young Spezza?

MSL - Yes, Richards/Lecavalier/is Khabi a stretch?

Iginla - Not until he was out of his peak

Sedin- Yes. Lost game 7.

Zetterberg - Yes.

Vanek - No.

Perry - Yes.

Nash - No.

Kane - Yes.


The only cups post lockout come from "yes," obviously. The lesson here is not that wingers don't matter but that wingers can't do it by themselves. Can centers? Same metric applied.

Crosby/Malkin - Yes

Thornton - Debatable

Sedin - See above

Datsyuk - Yes

Staal- No

Spezza - Above

Stamkos - Yes

Kopi - Yes

Bergeron - Yes

Toews - Yes




Lotta cups on that list. But with the exception of Eric Staal, every single one of those with cups had support of at least two other elite players. Centers can't do it by themselves, either.

 

[enthusiast]

Two things:

1. The Devils traded for Kovalchuk in a much different organizational state than us. If we're a one or two round team once our core shakes itself out and the best talent on the market is a winger, **** it, let's ship our versions of Oduya and Bergfors with a late first for that guy.

2. It's easier to cost-control or replace a two-way winger who plays well with your go to center, than the other way around. And then you're stuck paying Travis Zajac for Kovalchuk-inflated production.

I hate the idea of trading high variance assets for a scoring winger until we know what we have in the assets I outlined in the first post.

Well, how long do you wait? There will without a doubt be highly valued Sabre assets that depreciate, potentially even drastically. Obviously you don't fling out Reinhart+ for Evander Kane but getting Hall/Kessel for Zadorov+ is a whole other ball game if possible.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Well, how long do you wait? There will without a doubt be highly valued Sabre assets that depreciate, potentially even drastically. Obviously you don't fling out Reinhart+ for Evander Kane but getting Hall/Kessel for Zadorov+ is a whole other ball game if possible.

You don't think we'll have a first round pedigreed prospect, solid NHL roster player, and late first lying around in a couple years?

Like, Eriksson + Smith is the only dollar for quarters package that's really impressive from an NHL production standpoint off the top of my head.

 

[enthusiast]

I don't think the same sort of players will necessarily be available, but if you're coming at it that we'd have similar assets and an altogether similar situation in a few years I'd argue that makes it evenmote advantageous to trade now and keep the ELC talent up then

 

[sabrebuild]

Let me put it this way:

We can all agree that for a team with one elite caliber player to win a cup is nearly impossible, yes? I'd argue it's even difficult for teams with two.
So once you start getting into teams with three, have the high quality wingers of this age ever had that?

Ovechkin- Nah, unless you count Mike Green which is debatable.

Kovalchuk- addressed, no. Hossa was it.

Alfie- Debatable. Chara/Young Spezza? He also had Hossa/Heatley, Havlat, that team was stacked, outside of center, tho they had good depth there too.

MSL - Yes, Richards/Lecavalier/is Khabi a stretch? When two star centers are your cast does that help your point?

Iginla - Not until he was out of his peak

Sedin- Yes. Lost game 7.

Zetterberg - Yes.

Vanek - No.

Perry - Yes.

Nash - No.

Kane - Yes.


The only cups post lockout come from "yes," obviously. The lesson here is not that wingers don't matter but that wingers can't do it by themselves. Can centers? Same metric applied.

Crosby/Malkin - Yes

Thornton - Debatable

Sedin - See above

Datsyuk - Yes

Staal- No

Spezza - Above

Stamkos - Yes

Kopi - Yes

Bergeron - Yes

Toews - Yes




Lotta cups on that list. But with the exception of Eric Staal, every single one of those with cups had support of at least two other elite players. Centers can't do it by themselves, either.

Nobody has ever said Centers win on their own... We all say that they need to be your best forwards, because a top center has a bigger influence on a game, play by play than a winger does.

 

[ZeroPT*]

Take away Getzlaf from Anaheim and they're nowhere near as good as they are. Take away Perry? They'd likely be fine. Obviously not as good but still a good playoff side.

I'll take centers over wingers. And Wingers are easier to get.

 

[sabrebuild]

The previous two Conn Smythe winners are wingers.

Neither guy was the driving force of their team. They both scored flashy goals, which is why the media gave them the award. I mean your infatuation with what the media says is so weird. If we make the playoffs do you realize that Adrian Dater or Steve Simmons could decide who is the conn smythe winner, say Baptiste hitting a hot streak and scoring 15 goals over Reinhart controlling games? Those guys are idiots and they get to vote on said award.

 

[enthusiast]

Nobody has ever said Centers win on their own... We all say that they need to be your best forwards, because a top center has a bigger influence on a game, play by play than a winger does.

It's always quantified by team performance, though, like "look at LA/CHI"

Well, look to PIT's incredible center core and their one cup, or VAN with their two elite centers, elite wing, and whatever you want to call Luongo.

Great teams have great talent and its location is secondary

 

[enthusiast]

Neither guy was the driving force of their team. They both scored flashy goals, which is why the media gave them the award. I mean your infatuation with what the media says is so weird. If we make the playoffs do you realize that Adrian Dater or Steve Simmons could decide who is the conn smythe winner, say Baptiste hitting a hot streak and scoring 15 goals over Reinhart controlling games? Those guys are idiots and they get to vote on said award.

Kane absolutely deserved it