Speculation: Roster Building Thread XLVI: Dog Days Pending

[Trxjw]

Anyone think the Rangers might make their moves after the dust on free agency has settled? They could still wheel and deal at this year's draft but I think they might wait and see who goes where and then build up a so called bidding war with teams who missed out on free agents.

It might behoove them to get out in front of the trade deadline. "Hey, looking for a 20 goal scorer as a UFA? Well, you could give Okposo $7M a year like I heard he wants, or you can take Nash at $5.5M as a two year play."

 

[Irishguy42]

Jagr was acquired in January. I honestly think they kept him to still have a big name through a rebuild. That and the optics of trading someone in March that you acquired in 60 days earlier. The plan for 04-05 was to be absolutely horrible.

So much for that

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

We got burned last off season trying to drive up the price in bidding wars over talbot and hagelin.. I want people traded before this draft so we can pick now and hopefully some of those guys will be breaking in towards the end of the hanks career. Maybe get a late career run at the cup ala Devils 2012

 

[haohmaru]

Hindsight is foresight, but there's no reason why Gorton couldn't trade Yandle, while holding onto a top prospect and 2 second Rd picks. - while still trying to make the playoffs

He saw this team all season long... the blown leads, poor coverage, decline in defensman, lack of intention. ..

They didn't have to get trounced in order to concede the above.
Image hoe much better off they'd be right now, if they traded Yandle and didn't trade for Staal..? Especially since they're embracing a youth mandate.

There's only so many mistakes you can make, without being able to recover from...

I doubt there's a GM in the league, with his team 2nd or 3rd in the conference, that trades Yandle at the deadline for picks or something of lesser and/or future value. This is pure fantasy and citing this as a reason (not you) for Gorton being a "bad" GM is ludicrous. AV said "one more kick at the can" and you can point to a team like LA barely getting into the playoffs and making Stanley Cup runs despite mediocre regular season play after tons of playoff games. There's no way the Rangers were trading Yandle.

Staal is a different story - I mean, I get what they were trying to do and the guy is reliable along the wall and on faceoffs, but his scoring dropped off a cliff. I get the whole "maybe he can find another gear now that he's on a contender and in the playoffs" but it was a risky move that's certainly not above criticism.

 

[haohmaru]

Not necessarily. I see Nash being traded at the draft. I believe that the Rangers will acquire a 1st rounder in a package for him.

I can see the front office waiting on other moves, though

Personally, I'd be surprised if the Rangers trade their best forward for a 1st round pick and a prospect or something. Really surprised.

I see them angling more for a guy like Shattenkirk for Nash. We'll see.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Personally, I'd be surprised if the Rangers trade their best forward for a 1st round pick and a prospect or something. Really surprised.

I see them angling more for a guy like Shattenkirk for Nash. We'll see.

I don't know. I would do that as well if given the choice, but realistically I don't think that kind of deal will be on the table. If Nash is traded, I see him going for an underachieving top 9 forward on a 2nd contract, a 1st rounder and maybe a decent prospect.

If a hockey trade is going to be made for a defenseman, I think one of the RFA's goes.

St. Louis would want Stepan or Brassard for Shattenkirk, IMO.

 

[haohmaru]

I don't know. I would do that as well if given the choice, but realistically I don't think that kind of deal will be on the table. If Nash is traded, I see him going for an underachieving top 9 forward on a 2nd contract, a 1st rounder and maybe a decent prospect.

If a hockey trade is going to be made for a defenseman, I think one of the RFA's goes.

St. Louis would want Stepan or Brassard for Shattenkirk, IMO.

I don't see the Rangers doing that because it makes them significantly worse (Nash for top 9, 1st, prospect).

Stepan and Brassard have significantly longer term left than Shattenkirk and are "value contracts". I'd only make that deal if Shattenkirk were signing here for 4-5 years and somewhat cap-friendly. I don't see the Rangers doing that deal and they're idiots if they do (unless they can sign Shattenkirk).

And, personally, after watching a lot of St. Louis playoff games this year, I'm not certain how much of an answer Shattenkirk is to anything. I think Pietrangelo is the better D.

 

[Guyute]

Don't give up any assets for 1 year of Shattenkirk. If we really want him that badly, we should have a great shot to sign him next summer.

Time for NYR management to improve their asset management.

 

[TheTakedown]

Hindsight is foresight, but there's no reason why Gorton couldn't trade Yandle, while holding onto a top prospect and 2 second Rd picks. - while still trying to make the playoffs

He saw this team all season long... the blown leads, poor coverage, decline in defensman, lack of intention. ..

They didn't have to get trounced in order to concede the above.
Image hoe much better off they'd be right now, if they traded Yandle and didn't trade for Staal..? Especially since they're embracing a youth mandate.

There's only so many mistakes you can make, without being able to recover from...

That's a completely different conversation, but I agree with this too. I was all about selling. Getting someone to take 3rd/2nd pairing minutes instead of Yandle (hell a free agent would have been fine at that point), as well promoting some youth instead of trading for Eric Staal would have net us at least another 1st rounder.

I made many posts about this before the deadline, but my thought was that we could garner the following for the following players:

Moore + Boyle = 1st round pick
Yandle = 1st round pick + Prospect
Stalberg = 3rd round pick
Glass = 7th round pick
Hell, considering what Russell brought back, Girardi = 3rd Round Pick

And we'd still be retaining our 2 2nd's that we traded, plus saarela.

On top of that, we had enough replacement players to take those guys spots:

Moore = Hrivik
McIlrath = Boyle
Skjei = Yandle
Stalberg = Depth Pickup
Glass = Lindberg/Depth pickup
Girardi = Diaz

I'm not crying over spilled milk that's already been cleaned up at thus point, Gorton needs to pull a rabbit out of a hat now and find a way to replenish these assets that he's spent. This deadline would have been the year to do it (and Dallas probably wins a cup)

 

[Matz03]

Don't give up any assets for 1 year of Shattenkirk. If we really want him that badly, we should have a great shot to sign him next summer.

Time for NYR management to improve their asset management.

I would tend to agree there, unless St.Louis was taking back a big contract back. Nash might be plausible, definitely not Staal or Girardi, they needs the cash to sign some guys anyway. Nash+Klein for Shattenkirk+young player+picks anyone?

This summer they need to try to add a younger righty D like Barrie or even Ryan Ellis. Then the following summer another one, like Shattenkirk via FA. By that point McIlrath would hopefully have a full season under his belt and Skjei his first full season. 2 year D rebuild complete

 

[silverfish]

The Clowe trade was...

2013 2nd rounder (49) - Gabryel Paquin-Boudreau - just aged out of the QMJHL
2013 3rd round (62) - Yan-Pavel Laplante - just aged out of the QMJHL

Oh, the horror!

This posts intention isn't to say that the Clowe trade wasn't an objectively terrible decision - but more to detail how overrated 2nd round draft picks are. EDIT - Although, I'd be happy to wager that the 9 points the Rangers got out of Clowe are more than both Boudreau and Laplante will record in the NHL combined.

Every draft since 2010 and the number of 2nd round players who have played in more than 100 games:

2010 - 10
2011 - 9
2012 - 2
[Let's do 50 games starting here]
2013 - 1
2014 - 0
2015 - 0

I have a hard time looking at something like this, and being really upset about giving up two 2nd rounders for Staal. But, that's just me.

EDIT 2 - There's a chance I was reading the Staal thread and posted in this thread by accident. Whatever. Still relevant.

 

[Guyute]

I would tend to agree there, unless St.Louis was taking back a big contract back. Nash might be plausible, definitely not Staal or Girardi, they needs the cash to sign some guys anyway. Nash+Klein for Shattenkirk+young player+picks anyone?

This summer they need to try to add a younger righty D like Barrie or even Ryan Ellis. Then the following summer another one, like Shattenkirk via FA. By that point McIlrath would hopefully have a full season under his belt and Skjei his first full season. 2 year D rebuild complete

From an asset management perspective, it makes the most sense just to trade Nash for a middle six winger or #4/5 defenseman with a ~$4 million cap hit and a 1st. Flip said winger/d-man for more picks or prospects. Sign Shattenkirk next summer without giving anything up. Restock the farm system.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Jagr was acquired in January. I honestly think they kept him to still have a big name through a rebuild. That and the optics of trading someone in March that you acquired in 60 days earlier. The plan for 04-05 was to be absolutely horrible.

Perhaps. I still cant reconcile keeping one of the best players that ever lived during what was supposed to be a rebuild and a really tough year or two. That need for "star power" still permeates, and is the reason I'm convinced the Rangers will never truly rebuild.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The Clowe trade was...

2013 2nd rounder (49) - Gabryel Paquin-Boudreau - just aged out of the QMJHL
2013 3rd round (62) - Yan-Pavel Laplante - just aged out of the QMJHL

Oh, the horror!

This posts intention isn't to say that the Clowe trade wasn't an objectively terrible decision - but more to detail how overrated 2nd round draft picks are. EDIT - Although, I'd be happy to wager that the 9 points the Rangers got out of Clowe are more than both Boudreau and Laplante will record in the NHL combined.

Every draft since 2010 and the number of 2nd round players who have played in more than 100 games:

2010 - 10
2011 - 9
2012 - 2
[Let's do 50 games starting here]
2013 - 1
2014 - 0
2015 - 0

I have a hard time looking at something like this, and being really upset about giving up two 2nd rounders for Staal. But, that's just me.

EDIT 2 - There's a chance I was reading the Staal thread and posted in this thread by accident. Whatever. Still relevant.

You seem to have a bad habit of looking at all of these trades over the last few years in a vacuum. Sure, you can justify any one of them if you try hard enough.

You can easily make the argument that a 2nd rounder doesn't mean much, but when you start coughing up several, it hamstrings your ability to replenish and retool.

Would you rather have 1 lottery ticket, or 5?

 

[cacchioli22]

Is there a reason we haven't even heard of negotiations with yandle? Big mistake letting him go. Our top priority this offseason should be getting quicker on the bag end with puck moving defensman like trading or buying out girardi and moving staal

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Is there a reason we haven't even heard of negotiations with yandle? Big mistake letting him go. Our top priority this offseason should be getting quicker on the bag end with puck moving defensman like trading or buying out girardi and moving staal

I honestly don't think we will hear anything on Yandle until closer to the draft. Don't think they being Yandle back unless they are able to move Staal.

I think the majority of the Rangers moves will come before the draft.

Fill in the holes with UFA signings and training camp invites.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Why do some think that Ryan Ellis would be available out of Nashville? He's signed to an amazing contract, and Shea Weber is beginning to decline. He's probably going to get more responsibility if anything rather than them moving him.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Why do some think that Ryan Ellis would be available out of Nashville? He's signed to an amazing contract, and Shea Weber is beginning to decline. He's probably going to get more responsibility if anything rather than them moving him.

Think because they need to upgrade the offense (#2 center and scoring from the wing). They have an embarrassment of riches on the back end and he's the most likely to be moved out of the group.

Rangers and Nashville appear to make really good,trading partners.

 

[Edge]

The Clowe trade was...

2013 2nd rounder (49) - Gabryel Paquin-Boudreau - just aged out of the QMJHL
2013 3rd round (62) - Yan-Pavel Laplante - just aged out of the QMJHL

Oh, the horror!

This posts intention isn't to say that the Clowe trade wasn't an objectively terrible decision - but more to detail how overrated 2nd round draft picks are.

Every draft since 2010 and the number of 2nd round players who have played in more than 100 games:

2010 - 10
2011 - 9
2012 - 2
[Let's do 50 games starting here]
2013 - 1
2014 - 0
2015 - 0

I have a hard time looking at something like this, and being really upset about giving up two 2nd rounders for Staal. But, that's just me.

If this were the Rangers of the mid-90s I'd agree with you.

But between 2004 and 2013, here are some of the guys we've landed with our second and third round picks:

Brandon Dubinsky
Mike Sauer
Artem Anisimov
Derek Stepan
Pavel Buchnevich
Anthony Duclair

That's pretty darn good.

Compunding the problem is that these moves don't live in isolation. So while any one of them might not be of huge significance in-and-of-itself, collectively they add up.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

If this were the Rangers of the mid-90s I'd agree with you.

But between 2004 and 2013, here are some of the guys we've landed with our second and third round picks:

Brandon Dubinsky
Mike Sauer
Artem Anisimov
Derek Stepan
Pavel Buchnevich
Anthony Duclair

That's pretty darn good.

Compunding the problem is that these moves don't live in isolation. So while any one of them might not be of huge significance in-and-of-itself, collectively they add up.

Yeah when taken together as a whole it's significant. Anismov and Dubinsky netted the Rangers Nash.

Duclair got the Rangers Yandle.

Sauer was on track to be a solid #4 Dman before the injuries.

 

[OverTheCap]

You seem to have a bad habit of looking at all of these trades over the last few years in a vacuum. Sure, you can justify any one of them if you try hard enough.

You can easily make the argument that a 2nd rounder doesn't mean much, but when you start coughing up several, it hamstrings your ability to replenish and retool.

Would you rather have 1 lottery ticket, or 5?

Yup, which is why Gordie Clark stressed the importance of getting bodies into the system at last year's draft and said "the need is players, just players." We have traded away a lot of picks in recent years and 2 prospects in Duclair and Saarela on top of that. There is an obvious lack of depth in the system, which the organization seems to be aware of on some level, but they continued to trade away picks and prospects in hopes of winning a cup. Now we are in situation where our prospect pool is depleted, and we have yet to win a cup to show for it.

 

[The Gloaming]

The Clowe trade was...

2013 2nd rounder (49) - Gabryel Paquin-Boudreau - just aged out of the QMJHL
2013 3rd round (62) - Yan-Pavel Laplante - just aged out of the QMJHL

Oh, the horror!

This posts intention isn't to say that the Clowe trade wasn't an objectively terrible decision - but more to detail how overrated 2nd round draft picks are. EDIT - Although, I'd be happy to wager that the 9 points the Rangers got out of Clowe are more than both Boudreau and Laplante will record in the NHL combined.

Every draft since 2010 and the number of 2nd round players who have played in more than 100 games:

2010 - 10
2011 - 9
2012 - 2
[Let's do 50 games starting here]
2013 - 1
2014 - 0
2015 - 0

I have a hard time looking at something like this, and being really upset about giving up two 2nd rounders for Staal. But, that's just me.

EDIT 2 - There's a chance I was reading the Staal thread and posted in this thread by accident. Whatever. Still relevant.

The Sharks not having an amazing 2013 draft doesn't make those picks worth any less.

 

[Riche16]

Perhaps. I still cant reconcile keeping one of the best players that ever lived during what was supposed to be a rebuild and a really tough year or two. That need for "star power" still permeates, and is the reason I'm convinced the Rangers will never truly rebuild.

Maybe I'm just overly hopeful they will do something this off-season and in the coming ones, but in the current climate the player you are describing is Hank... the rest of the roster can and should be overhauled.

They won't do it, but it's possible to do while keeping that "star power" that you mentioned (i.e. ***** in seats and jerseys selling)

 

[silverfish]

The point of that post was to illustrate that I think people are heavily overrating draft picks here. At a certain threshold, yes, trading too many is probably bad. The Rangers are probably at said threshold. I'd imagine that since guys like Gordie are saying it needs to stop, that it might actually stop.

Please do not confuse future silence on my part as me not having to say anything on this matter. I ****ed up posting in this thread in the first place. Thought it was the Staal thread. I want nothing to do with the circular arguments that take place in this thread every day of the off-season.

Bye!

 

[bernmeister]

To me, that quote makes it seem Dallas won't move Honka.

Maybe they'll budge on Honka for Rick Nash? Dallas looks to have A LOT of cap space this summer. I think this is a weird year in that you sort of have to build your roster to be expansion draft proof and all the other teams are going to look to do this too.

Lundqvist to Dallas for Lehtonen, Nichushkin, Honka, 2nd.

Nash @80% to Carolina for Slavin/Pesce/Fleury + McClement/Nordstrom + 1st/2nd

Staal + ? to Buffalo for Franson + Foligno

Zucc - Brass - Nuke
Kreider - Stepan - Buch
Miller - Hayes - Foligno
Fast - Lindberg - Nordstrom
McDonagh - Klein
Slavin - McIlrath
Skjei/Franson/Honka/Girardi
Lehtonen
Raanta

I don't know. Totally off the top of my head without a bunch of research.

Rangers like Honka, Nichushkin is out of favor in Dallas but could still be a really nice piece with a change of scenery to the East. Lehtonen is totally expendable to Dallas and Lundqvist makes them very dangerous. They don't lose key roster pieces and become more competitive while fueling a Rangers rebuild.

Carolina is one team that can afford Nash at full or near full salary and where he might look good. Those young defenders all look promising but with Hannifin and Carrick and others in the system they have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to young D. Prying one away may be feasible due to the surplus.

Staal for Foligno's rights adds some size and sandpaper. Franson is a stop gap on an expiring contract who can be flipped at the deadline if he's performing.

Klein can be moved at the deadline or in the off season. Same for one or both of Zucc/Brass if we're deciding to go with a full youth movement. The additions of Buch, Nuke, Skjei, McIlrath, Honka, Slavin/Fleury/Pesce, Foligno and a pick or two makes the team younger and gives it a major face lift. If Klein is moved at the deadline they can seek to sign Shattenkirk in the offseason. Definitely an abstract, quickly written plan that could be totally flawed, but it's the kind of tack I dream of seeing the team take. Saying goodbye to Hank would be agonizing but this team isn't going to legitimately compete while he's still elite. It's time to move on and maximize the return. Once you move Hank you're committed to the rebuild so everyone else over 26 should go too. We'll struggle for a year or two, but the shape and direction of the team will be dramatically altered.

Defense eventually looks like:

McDonagh - Shattenkirk
Skjei - Honka
Slavin - McIlrath

Offense depends on returns for Klein/Zucc/Brass if dealt and whether Nuke can break out/Buch impresses.

Nash - I just suggested in a thread about Sabres badly want/need a top W, to do

Nash (full pop) + 2017 NYR 1st (actual, not conditional) + Girardi
for
Buf's 2016 1st 8th OA + Lupul

We are kicking the can, but we are also getting an 8thOA, + relocating a higher salaried vet. While Lupul -- who has similar #s --- gets injured at hello, we would be relocating an NMC. We have the option of keeping Hank's friend and exposing him to expansion or LTIR, whichever is appropo.


I'm seeing Staal to Dallas.
He does have to waive, we have to buy and flip his CT digs, but he is a good fit there and has good shot at SCup. I see a bundle w/Raanta. We may have to eat a chunk on either or both, but the upside is worth it.
As to return, Nichuskin, ya, but even if we add, I want Gurianov ?sp? back. First rounder, has obligations, returns to hockey next year. A real talent, that they drafted him that early. Possibly another Kreider but a C!

------------

If we did that first deal, and AZ was desperate for Matthews, and adding the 8th to OEL and their pick was enough to do it, the price we could extract out of AZ would be SWEET.... but not prob to be 'stuck' w/8OA

Don't give up any assets for 1 year of Shattenkirk. If we really want him that badly, we should have a great shot to sign him next summer.

Time for NYR management to improve their asset management.

Agreed, unless it is really really small change.