NYR Viper
Registered User
Would Anaheim move a goalie in return for Nash or Staal? The Kings moved Jones to Boston. They didn't need a goalie. They flipped Jones for a 1st.
Speculation: Roster Building Thread XLVI: Dog Days Pending
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Pavel Buchnevich
Drury and Laviolette Must Go
The window is closed. If we are trading Staal, retain as much as possible, and try to get players who can help us in the future. I don't know why some people still think there are trades to make that will make us good next season. Trading Nash, Girardi, Staal, Klein for older veterans isn't going to make us good, it'll just be shuffling around the deck chairs. What will make us good is rebuilding or those players having significantly better seasons next season. Those players aren't going to net the pieces needed for us to become good, and the pieces aren't in the farm system either. You could list out as many players that we have 25 and under as you want, but if a 25 and under list was made for NHL teams counting prospects, we'd be in the bottom 10. It won't be much better in a year or two since we still have the 2016 and 2017 drafts where we've given up early round picks. Players like Lindberg and McIlrath would be afterthoughts for the top 10 top 25 and under teams, but for us people actually expect big things from them.
This team got rid of the ability to re-load and just shuffle a few deck chairs once we started trading futures. It started with the Nash trade, then the MSL trade, Yandle trade and Eric Staal trade. Regardless of whether those trades worked out, and that doesn't have to be debated now, we lost significant pieces. A team can not reload after making all in trades 4 years in a row. Maybe you can absorb one of them. I'd say we absorbed the Nash trade pretty well by negating the lost first with acquiring the pick used on Buch, and then only really losing Dubinsky and Anisimov, which Nash can negate decently well.
The problem was we continued making these all in trades. 3 in 3 trade deadlines. We lost our 2014 1st, 2015 1st, 2015 2nd, 2016 1st, 2016 2nd, 2017 2nd, Duclair, Saarela.
Thats 8 major assets we gave up. Even if lets say 2 of the 8 turn into busts, thats still 6 key pieces we have lost out on for the future. Lets say we account for that with the Hayes signing, and maybe we get another European, CHL or College free agent signing that works out, thats still 4 key pieces that we lost because of these all in trades. If you look at our current roster, there really isn't more than 3 or 4 major upgrades that need to be made. If we could add 4 of those impact players in that 17-20 age group to our core, we wouldn't need to rebuild, but the problem is we don't have those assets to reload. 3 or 4 key young assets not being on your team and instead having replacement level players in their spots can be the difference between being a cup contending team and being a team that gets eliminated in the first round.
We put ourselves in this position with the decisions we made. Take a look around the league. There are plenty of teams that remain competitive in the playoffs without that big all in trade every season, and these are the teams that will stay competitive for many years without eventually needing to rebuild. We decided to go all in four years in a row, and now we are in a position where rebuilding makes the most sense. I don't want a rebuild, but its needed. Shuffling around the deck chairs will not have us improving, at best we'll be stagnant for a few years, and then we'll see a big decline once the current 17-22 year old group of players are important players for NHL teams. At that point, we will be in a worse position to rebuild because we won't have any valuable veterans to trade.
We've just lost too much talent in that 17-22 year old age group. The talent just isn't there on the team, in the system or in the picks we have to make this team a cup contending team, barring an incredible trade or free agent signing, and you can't bank on those happening.
This team got rid of the ability to re-load and just shuffle a few deck chairs once we started trading futures. It started with the Nash trade, then the MSL trade, Yandle trade and Eric Staal trade. Regardless of whether those trades worked out, and that doesn't have to be debated now, we lost significant pieces. A team can not reload after making all in trades 4 years in a row. Maybe you can absorb one of them. I'd say we absorbed the Nash trade pretty well by negating the lost first with acquiring the pick used on Buch, and then only really losing Dubinsky and Anisimov, which Nash can negate decently well.
The problem was we continued making these all in trades. 3 in 3 trade deadlines. We lost our 2014 1st, 2015 1st, 2015 2nd, 2016 1st, 2016 2nd, 2017 2nd, Duclair, Saarela.
Thats 8 major assets we gave up. Even if lets say 2 of the 8 turn into busts, thats still 6 key pieces we have lost out on for the future. Lets say we account for that with the Hayes signing, and maybe we get another European, CHL or College free agent signing that works out, thats still 4 key pieces that we lost because of these all in trades. If you look at our current roster, there really isn't more than 3 or 4 major upgrades that need to be made. If we could add 4 of those impact players in that 17-20 age group to our core, we wouldn't need to rebuild, but the problem is we don't have those assets to reload. 3 or 4 key young assets not being on your team and instead having replacement level players in their spots can be the difference between being a cup contending team and being a team that gets eliminated in the first round.
We put ourselves in this position with the decisions we made. Take a look around the league. There are plenty of teams that remain competitive in the playoffs without that big all in trade every season, and these are the teams that will stay competitive for many years without eventually needing to rebuild. We decided to go all in four years in a row, and now we are in a position where rebuilding makes the most sense. I don't want a rebuild, but its needed. Shuffling around the deck chairs will not have us improving, at best we'll be stagnant for a few years, and then we'll see a big decline once the current 17-22 year old group of players are important players for NHL teams. At that point, we will be in a worse position to rebuild because we won't have any valuable veterans to trade.
We've just lost too much talent in that 17-22 year old age group. The talent just isn't there on the team, in the system or in the picks we have to make this team a cup contending team, barring an incredible trade or free agent signing, and you can't bank on those happening.
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
Getting rid of Girardi is addition by subtraction. Losing Nash and Klein would definitely hurt. Marc is very replaceable.
NYR Viper
Registered User
At the deadline I was hoping they would choose a path and go down it. Either go all in or sell as much as possible. I would have sold but at least they chose a route.
In saying that, it was blatantly shown that this doesn't have what it takes to compete with the best in the league. I'm all for a serious retool. This core has had more than a few shots. In order to give them what the organization deemed they needed they emptied the cupboard of picks and prospects. Time to restock where possible.
In saying that, it was blatantly shown that this doesn't have what it takes to compete with the best in the league. I'm all for a serious retool. This core has had more than a few shots. In order to give them what the organization deemed they needed they emptied the cupboard of picks and prospects. Time to restock where possible.
NYR Viper
Registered User
All 4 of those guys are replaceable. If they move Brassard, that would be a larger blow. I would be fine with it if they could get what I believe he should garner. It's time to revamp the roster.
DanielBrassard
It's all so tiresome
Disagree on Nash, but if we are rebuilding I don't have a huge problem trading him. If this team plans to contend though, good luck replacing him.
Inferno
Registered User
see, im not as against "going for it" as some people are...you dont get many shots...really you have a window of at most 4-5 years where you can win it all, and then you become an also ran...its jsut how it is barring a goalie going on an insane hot streak or getting a lucky draw to the finals, or what not...but the odds arent high of those things happening....
so im ok with the MSL trade in theory...rangers were nuclear hot at the time...winning games every night...and more importantly they were the best team on the ice nearly every game...i get why they made that trade...that was the team that was closest to winning the cup.
then i get the yandle trade...the rangers were winning the presidents trophy...even if their underlying play and numbers showed they werent as good as their record...they were still winning games and maybe were just 1 piece from going on a run.
but this past deadline the rangers had a major chance to undo some of those trades...they should have been able to see that they werent going to win the cup or even remotely have a chance at winning the cup. they should have flipped Yandle with 50% more retained for a first and a prospect (look at what Kris Russel got FFS...look at what Andrew Ladd got)...
they should have looked to offload Dan Boyle for a low draft pick...im sure someone would have given up a 3rd or 4th for a depth defenseman...in the playoffs you can never have enough defenseman. Plenty of teams who are low on D would have been willing to pony up that price.
They should have looked into trading Dominic Moore...a 5th or 6th? Veteran 4th liner...maybe even more? 3rd? 4th?
Trade those 3 pieces...pick up a first, a prospect, and 2 4th rounders...and not make the Staal trade...and you currently are sitting with the rangers current situation...plus all that stuff i just listed...plus 2 second rounders, and Saarela.
Thats WORLDS better than where they are today.
Again, i dont mind going for it...but managements inability to tell where there team was, was the single most disapoointing team. i saw it 10 games into the season, youre telling me guys getting paid millions of dollars couldnt see it?
ugh.
I re-watched the cup final this past week skipping through it for the highlights and god damn compared to the steaming pile of trash this year that team could flat out play, all those games were insanely close. Got ptsd seeing zook called for kneeing and then scored on and nash missing that open net.
Also I think last year they were pretty damn close, but no one was overcoming missing their best forward and 3 of top 4 defensemen being crippled. I got nothing against the Yandle move, the team was still good.
That's why I find it so hard to believe they all of a sudden as a team all became bad hockey players. I'm leaning more towards the fact that they played a full season worth of hockey in the POs these past 4 years. Chicago and the Kings aren't has beens and they got stomped just the same this year after playing so many PO games.
Some major moves need to be made, but I don't think it's 2004 blowup time just yet.
Oscar Lindberg
Registered User
Sather was still the GM for the Talbot trade. He overplayed his hand. There was demand for Talbot, and he wanted the best possible deal. But he waited to long to pull the trigger on a deal, and the demand dried up as teams moved on. Happens
eco's bones
Registered User
As previously--I'm in no hurry to move Brassard to another team.
So on to Klein---IMO if you're going to move him the trade deadline would probably be the better time than the off season. At the trade deadline other teams are always looking to land a veteran and reliable defenseman. I think the return would be better then and more likelihood that you could play teams off against each other for the better deal. Just saying.
Nash I just want gone. It's not that he's not a good player but he never really lived up to expectations here and especially in the playoffs. He's had four seasons--his production really dropped this past year and the team declined as well. Not all his fault but a point comes where you cut bait.
So on to Klein---IMO if you're going to move him the trade deadline would probably be the better time than the off season. At the trade deadline other teams are always looking to land a veteran and reliable defenseman. I think the return would be better then and more likelihood that you could play teams off against each other for the better deal. Just saying.
Nash I just want gone. It's not that he's not a good player but he never really lived up to expectations here and especially in the playoffs. He's had four seasons--his production really dropped this past year and the team declined as well. Not all his fault but a point comes where you cut bait.
Vinny DeAngelo
Jimmy Easy to defend
We will never be sellers at the trade deadline as long as Hank is healthy.. If we're selling now we're going to do it at the draft and for a lot less than we want in return
- Oct 3, 2013
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n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
Maybe they'll budge on Honka for Rick Nash? Dallas looks to have A LOT of cap space this summer. I think this is a weird year in that you sort of have to build your roster to be expansion draft proof and all the other teams are going to look to do this too.
Samuel Culper III
Mr. Woodhull...
Lundqvist to Dallas for Lehtonen, Nichushkin, Honka, 2nd.
Nash @80% to Carolina for Slavin/Pesce/Fleury + McClement/Nordstrom + 1st/2nd
Staal + ? to Buffalo for Franson + Foligno
Zucc - Brass - Nuke
Kreider - Stepan - Buch
Miller - Hayes - Foligno
Fast - Lindberg - Nordstrom
McDonagh - Klein
Slavin - McIlrath
Skjei/Franson/Honka/Girardi
Lehtonen
Raanta
I don't know. Totally off the top of my head without a bunch of research.
Rangers like Honka, Nichushkin is out of favor in Dallas but could still be a really nice piece with a change of scenery to the East. Lehtonen is totally expendable to Dallas and Lundqvist makes them very dangerous. They don't lose key roster pieces and become more competitive while fueling a Rangers rebuild.
Carolina is one team that can afford Nash at full or near full salary and where he might look good. Those young defenders all look promising but with Hannifin and Carrick and others in the system they have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to young D. Prying one away may be feasible due to the surplus.
Staal for Foligno's rights adds some size and sandpaper. Franson is a stop gap on an expiring contract who can be flipped at the deadline if he's performing.
Klein can be moved at the deadline or in the off season. Same for one or both of Zucc/Brass if we're deciding to go with a full youth movement. The additions of Buch, Nuke, Skjei, McIlrath, Honka, Slavin/Fleury/Pesce, Foligno and a pick or two makes the team younger and gives it a major face lift. If Klein is moved at the deadline they can seek to sign Shattenkirk in the offseason. Definitely an abstract, quickly written plan that could be totally flawed, but it's the kind of tack I dream of seeing the team take. Saying goodbye to Hank would be agonizing but this team isn't going to legitimately compete while he's still elite. It's time to move on and maximize the return. Once you move Hank you're committed to the rebuild so everyone else over 26 should go too. We'll struggle for a year or two, but the shape and direction of the team will be dramatically altered.
Defense eventually looks like:
McDonagh - Shattenkirk
Skjei - Honka
Slavin - McIlrath
Offense depends on returns for Klein/Zucc/Brass if dealt and whether Nuke can break out/Buch impresses.
Nash @80% to Carolina for Slavin/Pesce/Fleury + McClement/Nordstrom + 1st/2nd
Staal + ? to Buffalo for Franson + Foligno
Zucc - Brass - Nuke
Kreider - Stepan - Buch
Miller - Hayes - Foligno
Fast - Lindberg - Nordstrom
McDonagh - Klein
Slavin - McIlrath
Skjei/Franson/Honka/Girardi
Lehtonen
Raanta
I don't know. Totally off the top of my head without a bunch of research.
Rangers like Honka, Nichushkin is out of favor in Dallas but could still be a really nice piece with a change of scenery to the East. Lehtonen is totally expendable to Dallas and Lundqvist makes them very dangerous. They don't lose key roster pieces and become more competitive while fueling a Rangers rebuild.
Carolina is one team that can afford Nash at full or near full salary and where he might look good. Those young defenders all look promising but with Hannifin and Carrick and others in the system they have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to young D. Prying one away may be feasible due to the surplus.
Staal for Foligno's rights adds some size and sandpaper. Franson is a stop gap on an expiring contract who can be flipped at the deadline if he's performing.
Klein can be moved at the deadline or in the off season. Same for one or both of Zucc/Brass if we're deciding to go with a full youth movement. The additions of Buch, Nuke, Skjei, McIlrath, Honka, Slavin/Fleury/Pesce, Foligno and a pick or two makes the team younger and gives it a major face lift. If Klein is moved at the deadline they can seek to sign Shattenkirk in the offseason. Definitely an abstract, quickly written plan that could be totally flawed, but it's the kind of tack I dream of seeing the team take. Saying goodbye to Hank would be agonizing but this team isn't going to legitimately compete while he's still elite. It's time to move on and maximize the return. Once you move Hank you're committed to the rebuild so everyone else over 26 should go too. We'll struggle for a year or two, but the shape and direction of the team will be dramatically altered.
Defense eventually looks like:
McDonagh - Shattenkirk
Skjei - Honka
Slavin - McIlrath
Offense depends on returns for Klein/Zucc/Brass if dealt and whether Nuke can break out/Buch impresses.
RangerBoy
Dolan sucks!!!
The whole switch from Sather to Gorton was weird. They waited until July 1. Sather was trying to trade Talbot at the GM meetings in Vegas before the draft. Bob Murray said he found out from Slats the day before the draft about Hagelin. Brooks wrote one week before the draft that Sather had not decided what he was planning to do. Sather was trying to make the trades during the draft. Sather and Doug Wilson had a long conversation on the draft floor on Saturday morning. A few days later,Gorton is named GM. Pierre Dorion was elevated to GM right after Ottawa's season was over. The Rangers season ended the Friday before Memorial Day weekend. There was plenty of time to make the switch before July 1.
RangerBoy
Dolan sucks!!!
This is where Dolan spends most of his time. Dolan and his business partner Irving Azoff are building a new building just for concerts. They renovated the Los Angeles Forum into a concert hall.
NikC
Registered User
- Oct 7, 2008
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offdacrossbar
misfit fanboy
move nash retaining what we need to in order to get a decent return. theres value there and cap room
buyout girardi if need be. if we can do a dump move, buy him out.
keep staal. he's still got miles left. resign yandle.
add some inexpensive euro skill to this team devoid of much offensive talent. done be afraid of small guys with speed and skill. our big guys dont have much of either really. add some talent that shoots.
make a few spots available for guys like jensen and hrivik to have a legit shot and stop giving tanner glass a free ride at the expense of his 2 line mates.
resign stalberg. he earned a decent 2 yr contract.
let skjei and mcilrath have their spots in the top 6. adding another dman would be nice, but just removing girardi and boyle and adding skjei and mcilrath full time might well be enough.
the defense would look alot better with 4 lines of forwards who didn't skate in mud and had the ability to back check and play the pk with speed and skill like hagelin used to do for us.
this team isn't as far off as many here believe.
cap management is an art. time to start a new canvas. we need to get younger, faster, cheaper, and more skilled.
removing nash, dom moore, dan boyle, tanner glass, estaal and girardi does that.
buyout girardi if need be. if we can do a dump move, buy him out.
keep staal. he's still got miles left. resign yandle.
add some inexpensive euro skill to this team devoid of much offensive talent. done be afraid of small guys with speed and skill. our big guys dont have much of either really. add some talent that shoots.
make a few spots available for guys like jensen and hrivik to have a legit shot and stop giving tanner glass a free ride at the expense of his 2 line mates.
resign stalberg. he earned a decent 2 yr contract.
let skjei and mcilrath have their spots in the top 6. adding another dman would be nice, but just removing girardi and boyle and adding skjei and mcilrath full time might well be enough.
the defense would look alot better with 4 lines of forwards who didn't skate in mud and had the ability to back check and play the pk with speed and skill like hagelin used to do for us.
this team isn't as far off as many here believe.
cap management is an art. time to start a new canvas. we need to get younger, faster, cheaper, and more skilled.
removing nash, dom moore, dan boyle, tanner glass, estaal and girardi does that.
Glen Sathers Cigar
Sather 4 Ever
That call on Zucc for kneeing was one of the worst penalty calls I've ever seen. Muzzin 100% stuck out his leg and kneed Zuccarello and then dove. Knowing how the Kings PP was going that series, that was infuriating.
Nash missing that open net on the luckiest play by Voynov ever (a puck that goes in 99% of the time how Nash shot it)will haunt my dreams forever.
The other play is obviously the blatant goalie interference that allowed the Kings to score in Game 2 and start their comeback. What a joke.
Why? You keep pushing this narrative like it's the truth and it's not. Keep trying though.
Mac n Gs
Gorton plz
- Jan 17, 2014
- 22,592
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I don't understand why people can't realize that as long as Sather was GM, he had the final say, regardless of what everyone else was telling him. If he wanted something to happen, it happened.
GAGLine
Registered User
- Sep 17, 2007
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The Staal deal might work, but I don't see the other 2 happening.
Why would Carolina have any interest in Nash?
Dallas isn't trading for Lundqvist unless they are sending us both Lehtonen and Niemi. They aren't going to be spending 13 mil on the goalie position for the next 2 years.
If we are doing that deal, then we should send them both Lundqvist and Raanta and take back Lehtonen and Niemi, and then they can add from there.
Gardner McKay
RIP, Jimmy.
If I told you that grass is green would you have the same response? Facts are facts. You not liking them doesn't change that. I don't like the fact that I am not a millionaire and retired at 27 years old. It is still a fact though.
TheTakedown
Puck is Life
- Jul 11, 2012
- 13,689
- 1,480
That timeline, to me, screams to me that this was still Sather's team, and he wanted to give it one last shot to see if they could win.
Now it's clear that this core is past its expiration date.
This is truly Gorton's team now. This Offseason won't be like prior offseasons.
Captain Lindy
Formerly known as Kreider Beast
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