Speculation: Roster Building Thread LIX: To trade or not to trade CK?

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alkurtz

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Nov 26, 2006
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Another point re: my comments on a broken system that forces us to trade a player in his prime after we have drafted and developed him.

This has nothing to do with free agency: a hard-earned and well-earned right that all players have. At some point in his career a player should have the right to go where he wants and be the master of his own fate.

But CK is not yet a free agent and is still under contract.

This is not about a team saying that, yes, he has become a fine player and we want to keep him. It is also not about other financial decisions that the team has made, for better or worse.

This is about a system where a team would be better with a particular player, would possibly even love to keep him for a reasonable amount of years (if the player wants to stay), but feels they must trade him well before his contract is up. This is not about whether CK will begin to decline in a few years or continue to be productive well into his thirties. Something we just can't know with any degree of certainty.

This is not about a player we acquired from another team via trade or free agency.

This is about a player we drafted, who was discussed on these boards in hundreds of posts while he was still in college, who we watched become a NHLer in the playoffs right out of BC, who frustrated us on one hand but who was the subject of multiple man-crushes on these boards on the other, who is likely the first player that other teams discuss when they game plan for the Rangers (that will likely change with Panarin). This is not about perhaps the poor decision not to lock him up for a longer term when we had the chance.

When CK becomes a free agent, the choice is his, no matter his history. But he is not yet a free agent.

The Rangers would be a better team with CK than without. The Rangers are planning to compete for a playoff spot this year. Whether that is the right or incorrect decision is another issue altogether. But being forced to trade a player like CK, or any other comparable player on any team, when you clearly would be better retaining him and he still is under contract, is just not right. This is also not about trading a player at the TD when you are out of the playoff hunt and his contract will expire in a few short months. But, it is the way it is and we have to live with it. But it is wrong. I don't know what the answer is w/o radically restructuring the CBA and that is unlikely to happen even when negotiations become serious. Making it even worse is that, in any trade that involves CK, we will certainly not get back anything close to equal, or even close to, equal value. The system is dysfunctional.
 

UAGoalieGuy

Registered User
Dec 29, 2005
16,259
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Another point re: my comments on a broken system that forces us to trade a player in his prime after we have drafted and developed him.

This has nothing to do with free agency: a hard-earned and well-earned right that all players have. At some point in his career a player should have the right to go where he wants and be the master of his own fate.

But CK is not yet a free agent and is still under contract.

This is not about a team saying that, yes, he has become a fine player and we want to keep him. It is also not about other financial decisions that the team has made, for better or worse.

This is about a system where a team would be better with a particular player, would possibly even love to keep him for a reasonable amount of years (if the player wants to stay), but feels they must trade him well before his contract is up. This is not about whether CK will begin to decline in a few years or continue to be productive well into his thirties. Something we just can't know with any degree of certainty.

This is not about a player we acquired from another team via trade or free agency.

This is about a player we drafted, who was discussed on these boards in hundreds of posts while he was still in college, who we watched become a NHLer in the playoffs right out of BC, who frustrated us on one hand but who was the subject of multiple man-crushes on these boards on the other, who is likely the first player that other teams discuss when they game plan for the Rangers (that will likely change with Panarin). This is not about perhaps the poor decision not to lock him up for a longer term when we had the chance.

When CK becomes a free agent, the choice is his, no matter his history. But he is not yet a free agent.

The Rangers would be a better team with CK than without. The Rangers are planning to compete for a playoff spot this year. Whether that is the right or incorrect decision is another issue altogether. But being forced to trade a player like CK, or any other comparable player on any team, when you clearly would be better retaining him and he still is under contract, is just not right. This is also not about trading a player at the TD when you are out of the playoff hunt and his contract will expire in a few short months. But, it is the way it is and we have to live with it. But it is wrong. I don't know what the answer is w/o radically restructuring the CBA and that is unlikely to happen even when negotiations become serious. Making it even worse is that, in any trade that involves CK, we will certainly not get back anything close to equal, or even close to, equal value. The system is dysfunctional.

I think keeping Kreider until the deadline is a good insurance policy. What if Kaako and/or Kravstov have issues adjusting to the NHL game? What if the reverse happens and several new players exceed expectations and the team is in a solid playoff spot?

Then you have the long game perspective. Do the Rangers see Kreider as a long term piece? Do they risk minimizing his return hanging on to him if hes not?
 

Ola

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Apr 10, 2004
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5947FFF7-7CD0-4041-938E-FB12F9B946E2.png


Hehe, it would be kind of funny to insert this image into our discussions two months ago. Who would have thought? ;)
 

TheBPA

Registered User
Jul 1, 2004
1,047
693
I will never understand the Brian Boyle fascination.

Nice guy. Not a very good player. He’s serviceable at best and is on the downside of his career. He’s cracked 30 points once and that was 9 years ago. At his absolute best he can chip in 25 points.

He’s expensive for what he brings. Signing a vet like Boyle to a multi year deal (which is what he will want) is exactly how you get into cap trouble. There is no upside to signing him and I’m pretty confident that he will never be a ranger again.
 

Kovalev27

BEST IN THE WORLD
Jun 22, 2004
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lets pretend for a second that the cap isn't a factor and you've got the following 15 forwards

zibanejad, panarin, kreider, buchnevich, namestnikov, strome, chytil, andersson, howden, lemieux, kakko, kravtsov, fast, mckegg and nieves

what would your lines be? even without the cap forcing moves its too many guys

I’ve been saying this we don’t need more forwards we need to shed guys.
 

Ola

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Apr 10, 2004
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Sweden


Buyouts create dead cap space for twice the remaining term of the contracts, which the Rangers would prefer to avoid.

I think you can — and should — question Carps logic here. It was true 6 months ago if the plan was to stink as much as possible for 2-3 more years and then try to finish the climb out of the rebuild in year 4-5 years. That time table doesn’t apply anymore. The climb has already started. What we do now is add piece by piece to the puzzle. A missed opportunity today hurts us a lot more than if this process was supposed to start 2-3 years from now. Flexibility is valuable.

If a player represents dead cap-space — buying him out does the opposite of “creating” dead cap space, you keep 66% of the dead cap space and clear the rest (unless the contract is front loaded, but the principle still applies in most cases).

So saying that you “create” dead cap space by buying out our Ds is just not correct, you clear 33% of the dead cap-space they represent and smear the rest out over twice the length, I.e. 4 years instead of 2 years.

Hence, the more players representing dead cap space we buy-out — the more cap-space, and value — we create. So the starting point must be that we add value to the organization by clearing dead cap-space. This will only change if it’s worth it to have net total of less cap space over 4 years just to gain a bit more cap space in 2021 and 2022. Give the state of this team right now, I am not sure if that is correct.

With that said — IF — we can clear space space today by trading Kreider, Names and other contracts like that, maybe Buch too, and hence have the maneuverability we desire with the RFAs, then we don’t have to buy-out players. But I am not sure if those moves are out there.
 
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NYRangers0723

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Apr 30, 2019
2,805
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I’m kind of scared of the Kreider trade tbh

We need to get a piece worthy of trading him. Despite all of his shortcomings he’s still a very good player. I think, logicistically, he should be traded, but it’s still gonna hurt. A lot more than it did for any of the other guys for me, tbh.

I really hope we can get a young guy in return who’s ready to contribute next season. Not even necessarily a bluechip, but a guy who is maybe buried on a deep team.
"All of his shortcomings"? Look he has flaws like most good players but I dont think he has a lot of shortcomings. For some reason our fans got it in their head that Kreider was "supposed" to be a 40 goal scorer based off his 2012 playoffs and anything less is a failure in their eyes lol. He was drafted 19th overall. Most guysr drafted in that spot end up doing nothing. Kreider has at least be a top 6 player since he was 22, has great speed which opens up space,and one of the best in front of the net. Those are qualities that are not gonna be replaced....at least easily. Its just a shame we have to basically dump him for salary relief because of other terrible contracts forcing us to. Coming back from the blood clot and becoming a leader has been good to see. Plus I think he fits here even more after adding the talent we have the past few months
 

Ola

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Apr 10, 2004
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Sweden

What do you mean?

There are no qualifying offer for ADA. You wrote that ADA had an qualifying offer, he don’t (“...QO for ADA is 906k...”). It has expired.

Every other page someone is talking about how we should force a player to accept his qualifying offer, they are irrelevant as of 15 July, they can’t even be accepted.

We have actually in the past forced players to sign 1 year deals for an amount lower than their QO, just think it’s a bit misleading to talk about QOs like they still exist.
 

Amazing Kreiderman

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Apr 11, 2011
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What do you mean?

There are no qualifying offer for ADA. You wrote that ADA had an qualifying offer, he don’t (“...QO for ADA is 906k...”). It has expired.

Every other page someone is talking about how we should force a player to accept his qualifying offer.

We have actually in the past forced players to sign 1 year deals for an amount lower than their QO, just think it’s a bit misleading to talk about QOs like they still exist.

The QO is still relevant to the post I quoted
 

NYR Viper

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Sep 9, 2007
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Jacksonville, FL
"All of his shortcomings"? Look he has flaws like most good players but I dont think he has a lot of shortcomings. For some reason our fans got it in their head that Kreider was "supposed" to be a 40 goal scorer based off his 2012 playoffs and anything less is a failure in their eyes lol. He was drafted 19th overall. Most guysr drafted in that spot end up doing nothing. Kreider has at least be a top 6 player since he was 22, has great speed which opens up space,and one of the best in front of the net. Those are qualities that are not gonna be replaced....at least easily. Its just a shame we have to basically dump him for salary relief because of other terrible contracts forcing us to. Coming back from the blood clot and becoming a leader has been good to see. Plus I think he fits here even more after adding the talent we have the past few months

Until Kreider is dumped as a cap dump I don’t see how you can speak in such absolutes.
 

Ken Lund

Registered User
Feb 23, 2019
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OK, my bad! ;) (not sure I understand how though, you responded to someone assuming the QO still made out the floor of how low we can go on these guys?)
To me the relevance of the QO is that it is a guideline that players who dont have leverage have to take into account. The Rangers can go to ADA and say "your QO is $906,000 but because we like you we'll give you $925,000". Until you get arbitration rights there isn't much you can do.
 
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Roo Returns

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Mar 4, 2010
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I will never understand the Brian Boyle fascination.

Nice guy. Not a very good player. He’s serviceable at best and is on the downside of his career. He’s cracked 30 points once and that was 9 years ago. At his absolute best he can chip in 25 points.

He’s expensive for what he brings. Signing a vet like Boyle to a multi year deal (which is what he will want) is exactly how you get into cap trouble. There is no upside to signing him and I’m pretty confident that he will never be a ranger again.

For a team as young as the Rangers are, need some vets to insulate the kids. Helps the PK, faceoffs, and one goal leads with five minutes. Great lockerroom guy, knows the org. It's not an essential signing but would be nice.
 

Roo Returns

Skjeikspeare No More
Mar 4, 2010
9,272
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Westchester, NY
Teams with Cap room that are good trading partners: Colorado (which I've beaten to death), Columbus if they still plan to compete, Ottawa if only to add some bodies to flip at the deadline, Calgary is in win now, Minnesota, Boston, and Anaheim could really use a DMan.
 

bobbop

Henrik & Pop
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Teams with Cap room that are good trading partners: Colorado (which I've beaten to death), Columbus if they still plan to compete, Ottawa if only to add some bodies to flip at the deadline, Calgary is in win now, Minnesota, Boston, and Anaheim could really use a DMan.
Add Nashville, Dallas and my sleeper team St. Louis. All have enough space to add Kreider.
 

Riche16

McCready guitar god
Aug 13, 2008
12,831
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The Dreaded Middle
JD is in St. Louis visiting his daughter and two grandchildren. He went home to Columbus after July 1. JD did an interview with ESPN Radio NY right after the Rangers signed Panarin and he said he was back in Columbus.

I read JD is selling his home in Columbus. 5 fireplaces.

Gorton is running the team in NY.

Strickland didn't ask him many Rangers questions. JD said it's my job to be patient with the Rangers. He discussed Trouba. It's an expensive contract. He is a player who is hard to find. Talked about Panarin still being a young guy at 30-31 when the Rangers young guys become stars.

Strickland mentioned Shattenkirk after the JD interview was finished. Andy said besides Trouba the Rangers have another righty shooting D. Shattenkirk. Kevin is looking to have a bounce back year. Nothing about a potential buyout. Strickland is very close with Shattenkirk. He has tweeted some stuff about Shattenkirk's contracts/future in the past.

If I had to describe RB's writing style in two words... this would be it lol
 
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Riche16

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You missed the point. I’m bemoaning a system that is broken: not the Rangers or then predicament they find themselves in. Not a specific situation as with CK, but a systematic failure of the operative business model. Of course they can spend less elsewhere if they want to keep him. But that just serves to point out how illogical and dysfunctional the current system is.
The system is there to protect players by giving them leverage when they have proven what they are. I get your point but if you look at it from a player perspective it makes a ton of sense.

No job gives you a raise like the one you get when u are offered a deal somewhere else and your employer is forced to match or lose you.
 
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Oscar Lindberg

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Dec 14, 2015
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I’m fine with moving Kreider because there’s no need for this team to be good this year.

In fact I would make the argument that it would behoove the team to play hard but not get a lot of wins, similar to last year

Get one more year of high end first round talent, and then declare the rebuild is over for good

Or that’s my take at least
 

Chaels Arms

Formerly Lias Andersson
Aug 26, 2010
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I will never understand the Brian Boyle fascination.

Nice guy. Not a very good player. He’s serviceable at best and is on the downside of his career. He’s cracked 30 points once and that was 9 years ago. At his absolute best he can chip in 25 points.

He’s expensive for what he brings. Signing a vet like Boyle to a multi year deal (which is what he will want) is exactly how you get into cap trouble. There is no upside to signing him and I’m pretty confident that he will never be a ranger again.

It's just laziness. I read a blog post a few weeks ago mentioning all of Boyle, Brassard and Lindberg as potential Rangers targets. Instead of surveying the league to see what potential centers might be had it's so much easier to throw out old Rangers names.
 

ZiGOODejad

intangibles
Nov 30, 2013
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I’d like to see what this team looks like with Kreider on it before shipping him out but that’ll be hard.
 

Riche16

McCready guitar god
Aug 13, 2008
12,831
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The Dreaded Middle
One thing I believe is that Gorton realizes is that Kreider as a player hasn't been the bastion of health... IF they keep him and intend to deal him at or near the deadline, he needs to be healthy at that time. It would be a gamble.
 

Vitto79

Registered User
May 24, 2008
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One thing I believe is that Gorton realizes is that Kreider as a player hasn't been the bastion of health... IF they keep him and intend to deal him at or near the deadline, he needs to be healthy at that time. It would be a gamble.

If they plan to move him then may aswell do it now ... he’s the easiest to deal for cap space .... they should get the Hayes deal back

Not gonna win the cup this year so do it if he’s not getting an extension
 

YoSoyLalo

me reading HF
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"All of his shortcomings"? Look he has flaws like most good players but I dont think he has a lot of shortcomings. For some reason our fans got it in their head that Kreider was "supposed" to be a 40 goal scorer based off his 2012 playoffs and anything less is a failure in their eyes lol. He was drafted 19th overall. Most guysr drafted in that spot end up doing nothing. Kreider has at least be a top 6 player since he was 22, has great speed which opens up space,and one of the best in front of the net. Those are qualities that are not gonna be replaced....at least easily. Its just a shame we have to basically dump him for salary relief because of other terrible contracts forcing us to. Coming back from the blood clot and becoming a leader has been good to see. Plus I think he fits here even more after adding the talent we have the past few months
Listen, I’m as big a Kreider fan as any - I really don’t even WANT to trade him, but given the contract he’s going to get, we kind of have to. I agree that people let expectations cloud their judgement of Kreider.
 

Chaels Arms

Formerly Lias Andersson
Aug 26, 2010
7,302
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New York City
Trade CK. He's the last asset from the previous run. By the time the team is ready to compete he'll be too expensive. GM's love speed, they love size and he has both. Someone will overpay for him. The only question is does that overpayment come now or at the deadline.
 
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