Salary Cap: Roster Building | Contract Charts 1st Post | See You On The Dark Side Of The Moon

[ColePens]

I still can't believe people would want Boyle on this team. I like how he plays, but he does not fit our style at all. And to pay a 4C about 3M.. would be absurd.

 

[Rufus]

I think save for getting Duchene, we're not getting a 2C to play 3C

 

[Sypher04]

I still can't believe people would want Boyle on this team. I like how he plays, but he does not fit our style at all. And to pay a 4C about 3M.. would be absurd.

Agreed. Basically the same reason the Leafs just let him walk.

 

[Riptide]

I still can't believe people would want Boyle on this team. I like how he plays, but he does not fit our style at all. And to pay a 4C about 3M.. would be absurd.

Honestly I wouldn't mind him. But not as our #3C. And not at 2x2.75m.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'm probably saying the same thing over and over again, but let me try to lay out my concerns overall and what I would have liked JR to do.

Going into the off season it seemed pretty clear to most around here that Bonino was going to price himself out and Cullen was going to retire. With that in mind, many to most of us expected JR to make a move either at the draft or through middle of July.

As time has passed, it appears that many posters have just moved the goal posts and are trusting JR when he says he has targets he could get today. Without knowing the list of available players, I can't say whether he's right or not, but I'm a bit skeptical. Of course, I complained about Fleury half of last year and ended up being wrong, so it's reasonable to trust JR and probably fair to call me a little negative.

It was a gamble and maybe a smart gamble to wait on Cullen, but I was pretty clear all summer that Cullen wasn't coming back. Of course, I thought he was going to retire, so it's not like I was totally right.

If I were the GM, I would have given Cullen a shorter time frame to decide. I get that Cullen earned the right to take his time, but the Pens frankly didn't have time to wait this summer. Last year we had Bonino and Fehr around, so there was no risk to wait on Cullen. This year, the risk outweighed the reward IMO. Therefore, I would have pushed hard for Moore or traded for a center rather than Reaves. I know the Reaves thing was a priority, but I don't have to agree with the priority and I don't.

As for 3C, I think it makes sense to give your best offer for Duchene and then move on. Waiting it out is a bigger gamble, in my estimation, than the hopes of getting Sakic to come down to your price. You can always circle back later on if he gets desperate. I would have liked to see what Bonino's ask was from the Pens, but I'm not opposed to the term if you could get the cap hit under 4MM and without a restrictive NTC. IF you decide to move on from him, I think you need a plan in place to replace him and I'd like to see that plan acted on before the season starts.

The reason for that timeline is because of the importance of limiting Sid and Geno's ice time in the early parts of the season. I want them playing closer to 18 minutes a night. You can do that when you have Bonino and Cullen. You can't do that with Rowney, McClement, Blueger, Dea.

So if there's a deal for W. Karlsson out there today, make the deal. If it's Sheahan, ugh, I'll think about it if it's cheap enough. You can always open up cap space for a better center later on if you need to.

Some of my view is impatience, but I think some of it is being smart. You don't dick around with the center position and you need a plan in place for properly utilizing your 2 most important players.

 

[clefty]

I reserve the right to be nervous about our center depth until it's resolved.

 

[SCPens]

I'm probably saying the same thing over and over again, but let me try to lay out my concerns overall and what I would have liked JR to do.

Going into the off season it seemed pretty clear to most around here that Bonino was going to price himself out and Cullen was going to retire. With that in mind, many to most of us expected JR to make a move either at the draft or through middle of July.

As time has passed, it appears that many posters have just moved the goal posts and are trusting JR when he says he has targets he could get today. Without knowing the list of available players, I can't say whether he's right or not, but I'm a bit skeptical. Of course, I complained about Fleury half of last year and ended up being wrong, so it's reasonable to trust JR and probably fair to call me a little negative.

It was a gamble and maybe a smart gamble to wait on Cullen, but I was pretty clear all summer that Cullen wasn't coming back. Of course, I thought he was going to retire, so it's not like I was totally right.

If I were the GM, I would have given Cullen a shorter time frame to decide. I get that Cullen earned the right to take his time, but the Pens frankly didn't have time to wait this summer. Last year we had Bonino and Fehr around, so there was no risk to wait on Cullen. This year, the risk outweighed the reward IMO. Therefore, I would have pushed hard for Moore or traded for a center rather than Reaves. I know the Reaves thing was a priority, but I don't have to agree with the priority and I don't.

As for 3C, I think it makes sense to give your best offer for Duchene and then move on. Waiting it out is a bigger gamble, in my estimation, than the hopes of getting Sakic to come down to your price. You can always circle back later on if he gets desperate. I would have liked to see what Bonino's ask was from the Pens, but I'm not opposed to the term if you could get the cap hit under 4MM and without a restrictive NTC. IF you decide to move on from him, I think you need a plan in place to replace him and I'd like to see that plan acted on before the season starts.

The reason for that timeline is because of the importance of limiting Sid and Geno's ice time in the early parts of the season. I want them playing closer to 18 minutes a night. You can do that when you have Bonino and Cullen. You can't do that with Rowney, McClement, Blueger, Dea.

So if there's a deal for W. Karlsson out there today, make the deal. If it's Sheahan, ugh, I'll think about it if it's cheap enough. You can always open up cap space for a better center later on if you need to.

Some of my view is impatience, but I think some of it is being smart. You don't dick around with the center position and you need a plan in place for properly utilizing your 2 most important players.

Well I hope you feel better now. It sounds like skepticism and hindsight are big parts of your life. So it looks like you called the Cullen situation....or maybe not. I guess if you continue to think everything is going to turn out negative, some things will. As far as Bonino goes, I have to think Jimmy has a plan in place - he's told us as much - it just hasn't happened yet....and still may not before camp. I hope you'll be able to cope with that. And just for the record, how do you know the likes of Rowney, McClement, Blueger, and/or Dea aren't capable of limiting Sid and Geno's icetime? You don't. But I guess it's fine if you continue to think as such...

 

[Empoleon8771]

I agree with the idea that JR should just go for lesser targets instead of insisting on a big name 3C like it sounds like he's doing now, but I disagree with the Cullen thing. Moore was gone on July 1st, it was never "Cullen or Moore". I don't really see a situation where the Penguins could have given Cullen a reasonable window to sign while leaving open the possibility of getting a good 4C in free agency. Jokinen signed July 7th and I think he's the last guy signed that would qualify as a good 4C. From July 10th to today, there have been 6 UFA signings, they were Oduya, Streit, Beauchemin, Cullen, Stafford and Markov (signed in the KHL). That scenario was never available, it was either say no to Cullen immediately or wait on Cullen.

Up until this week, with the Penguins getting McClement on a PTO, the 4C was always going to be Rowney or Cullen. There really isn't a realistic scenario that was going to change that in that timeframe (so up until last week).

 

[ColePens]

Honestly I wouldn't mind him. But not as our #3C. And not at 2x2.75m.

He signed for 2 years 2.75. You can't say you wouldn't mind him but not at 3C and the money. You get it all or you don't want it.

So i'll say this - you don't want it.

 

[Gurglesons]

I still can't believe people would want Boyle on this team. I like how he plays, but he does not fit our style at all. And to pay a 4C about 3M.. would be absurd.

Somehow he had a huge impact with Tampa in their series against us in 2016.

Also, 2.25 mil is not three million, and who knows what he signs with us for versus Jersey.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Somehow he had a huge impact with Tampa in their series against us in 2016.

Also, 2.25 mil is not three million, and who knows what he signs with us for versus Jersey.

Probably not a significant difference, because Boyle hasn't made a lot of money over his career plus the idea that players will take drastically less to play for a cup contender is just a fallacy, especially players in their prime years. Even in examples of players that do take less to play for good teams, like Ehrhoff in 2014, they're signing for less with good teams to shoot up the values of their next contracts.

He also signed for $2.75 million AAV, not $2.25 million.

 

[Peat]

Everything Shady says makes sense. I think my person PoV diverges from his in pretty much just one key area.

As time has passed, it appears that many posters have just moved the goal posts and are trusting JR when he says he has targets he could get today. Without knowing the list of available players, I can't say whether he's right or not, but I'm a bit skeptical. Of course, I complained about Fleury half of last year and ended up being wrong, so it's reasonable to trust JR and probably fair to call me a little negative.

I do definitely trust JR until proven otherwise. He's been nothing but excellent for us for the last two years and if he says that's a way out that can be used tomorrow but the possibility of better if he waits, then that sounds reasonable to me.

The possibility that he waits too long on his back-up options is a scary one. I trust him to be alive to it but everyone makes mistakes.

 

[Gurglesons]

Probably not a significant difference, because Boyle hasn't made a lot of money over his career plus the idea that players will take drastically less to play for a cup contender is just a fallacy, especially players in their prime years. Even in examples of players that do take less to play for good teams, like Ehrhoff in 2014, they're signing for less with good teams to shoot up the values of their next contracts.

He also signed for $2.75 million AAV, not $2.25 million.

My mistake. That is a little rich for my blood, but honestly Boyle is probably worth that. Really solid player and I think if you get him on that contract for one year it allows you to really wait out the market.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well I hope you feel better now. It sounds like skepticism and hindsight are big parts of your life. So it looks like you called the Cullen situation....or maybe not. I guess if you continue to think everything is going to turn out negative, some things will. As far as Bonino goes, I have to think Jimmy has a plan in place - he's told us as much - it just hasn't happened yet....and still may not before camp. I hope you'll be able to cope with that. And just for the record, how do you know the likes of Rowney, McClement, Blueger, and/or Dea aren't capable of limiting Sid and Geno's icetime? You don't. But I guess it's fine if you continue to think as such...

I love how you resort to personal insults rather than actually addressing what I wrote. I guess that's just your style, so whatever.

You have to think Jimmy has a plan in place. I am just critiquing the plan. Obviously we will see how it turns out.

As for how I know Rowney, McClement, Blueger, and/or Dea aren't capable of limiting Sid and Geno's ice time, well I think that's just common sense. We don't even know if they are NHL centers yet. In the case of McClement, there's a reason why he has to resort to a PTO. For Rowney, he's a 28 year old that finally cracked an NHL lineup, predominantly as a winger. The other 2 are maybes in terms of being NHL read this year and you want me to believe they can take minutes off of Sid and Geno?

It's not impossible, it's just improbable. Do you really believe otherwise?

 

[Shady Machine]

I agree with the idea that JR should just go for lesser targets instead of insisting on a big name 3C like it sounds like he's doing now, but I disagree with the Cullen thing. Moore was gone on July 1st, it was never "Cullen or Moore". I don't really see a situation where the Penguins could have given Cullen a reasonable window to sign while leaving open the possibility of getting a good 4C in free agency. Jokinen signed July 7th and I think he's the last guy signed that would qualify as a good 4C. From July 10th to today, there have been 6 UFA signings, they were Oduya, Streit, Beauchemin, Cullen, Stafford and Markov (signed in the KHL). That scenario was never available, it was either say no to Cullen immediately or wait on Cullen.

Up until this week, with the Penguins getting McClement on a PTO, the 4C was always going to be Rowney or Cullen. There really isn't a realistic scenario that was going to change that in that timeframe (so up until last week).

That's fair on Cullen vs Moore. I'm probably using a bit of hindsight there.

The other alternative is to trade for a replacement. We haven't done so yet. I will say however, that I'm fine with having one "hole" at 4C if the 3C is at least adequately addressed. Of course, I believe having Sunny around as an option in camp would have been useful, but others obviously disagree.

 

[SCPens]

My mistake. That is a little rich for my blood, but honestly Boyle is probably worth that. Really solid player and I think if you get him on that contract for one year it allows you to really wait out the market.

Yeah but Boyle was never in the cards because Cullen is a better option as a 4C for us and he was going to potentially come in at a much lower price. Jimmy wanted to wait on Cullen so a FA signing was never in his sights atleast until after Cullen made his decision.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I love the magical realm where we can sign players for less money and term than they sign for anywhere else. It really opens up possibilities.

Unfortunately, in the real world the only speculation worth entertaining involves numbers that players actually sign for, and that's where signing Boyle would be poor resource allocation for us because he's a 4C getting 3C money for multiple years.

He has EXACTLY the kind of contract we should be trying to avoid.

 

[pistolpete11]

JR is not immune to mistakes. Look no further than the previous head coach or the cap fiasco at the end of 14-15.

However, I fully expect him to make a move for a 3C at some point. The unknown of who that is and what it will take to get are legitimate concerns, but I believe he'll do something. So until he makes the move, I don't think anyone should be judging his offseason. If at the end of the offseason, his biggest 'mistake' is Reaves or not signing Dom Moore on July 1st as he waited for Cullen, I think that's pretty damn good. If he royally ****s up on the 3C, then I'll be right there with everyone complaining it.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I think fans just need to be patient.

JR has said hes waiting to see if certain players might be available from teams that are right up against the cap.

It really doesn't matter much if JR makes a trade on July 1st or October 1st, he just needs to trade for someone before the season starts.

 

[Shady Machine]

I guess the question is how serious do people believe that signing Cullen was this summer and if you knew in July he wasn't returning, would you have done anything differently?

That's a hindsight question, but I'm curious.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think fans just need to be patient.

JR has said hes waiting to see if certain players might be available from teams that are right up against the cap.

It really doesn't matter much if JR makes a trade on July 1st or October 1st, he just needs to trade for someone before the season starts.

I think there's some value to the player being with the team in training camp, but I can agree with that. The question is how long should JR wait into the season before he pulls the trigger?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Please explain which fight that Sid or Geno had last year that would have been prevented if Reaves were here. Do you think Wheeler is fighting Reaves because he was mad at Malkin?

I absolutely believe Reaves could have stopped Geno from feeling he had to take matters into his own hands after the Jets were taking cheap shots all game (February 16th). If you'll remember, Schultz left the game after a dirty hit from Buff and the Jets were taking liberties left and right. It boiled over and Geno responded with a dirty hit of his own, which was what he had to answer for a couple weeks later. Now we have Reaves to prevent our superstar from putting himself in that position.

In fact, any time Sid or Geno is being targeted Reaves can deal with it. Neither of them should feel compelled to fight in those situations again - we didn't have anyone else on the roster to do it before, so they had to. Now we do, so they don't.

Maybe some things like Staal get deterred but the really dirty players won't and super stars tend to be pretty damn elusive when they're targeted. Unless theyre god damn Letang. And you don't want the fourth line facing those super stars. The slashes, interference and standard cross checking are too common in the league for Reaves to do anything about unless he wants to pick a few fights every game. Penguins are already doing that **** to any player anyway.

Right. It won't stop everything, but it will likely stop some things. So the question is...how much is that worth?

How much is it worth for the Pens to reduce cheap shots against their franchise players to minimize their wear and tear over the course of a season? I'd say quite a bit. Certainly enough that I'd swap out a 4th liner putting up 20-25 points for Reaves putting up 13.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I think there's some value to the player being with the team in training camp, but I can agree with that. The question is how long should JR wait into the season before he pulls the trigger?

I think he needs a 3rd line center before the season starts.

Even though JR has said hes willing to go into the season without a 3rd line center i don't really buy that, i think he kind of has to say that so he doesn't back himself into a corner.

I know everyone assumes the pens are a playoff team, but the difference between playoff teams and non playoff teams is about one win every month, their is so much parity right now in the NHL, you can't afford to be playing games without a 3rd line center.

 

[SCPens]

I love how you resort to personal insults rather than actually addressing what I wrote. I guess that's just your style, so whatever.

You have to think Jimmy has a plan in place. I am just critiquing the plan. Obviously we will see how it turns out.

As for how I know Rowney, McClement, Blueger, and/or Dea aren't capable of limiting Sid and Geno's ice time, well I think that's just common sense. We don't even know if they are NHL centers yet. In the case of McClement, there's a reason why he has to resort to a PTO. For Rowney, he's a 28 year old that finally cracked an NHL lineup, predominantly as a winger. The other 2 are maybes in terms of being NHL read this year and you want me to believe they can take minutes off of Sid and Geno?

It's not impossible, it's just improbable. Do you really believe otherwise?

I did address some of the things that you wrote, I guess you didn't read what I had to say. Why would the Pens walk away from Cullen when he contributed what he did to the past 2 Cup runs? Telling him to make a decision before July 1st because we don't have Bonino and Fehr locked up isn't how I would have handled things. Cullen deserved the same opportunity that was given to him the year prior to take his time and make the right decision for he and his family. For his potential price tag and style of play he brought to the Pens, there were no FA centres that came close to the value he potentially provided.

And I know you're just critiquing Rutherford's 3C plan but with every day that passes you continue to repeat and complain about the fact that he's still yet to fill that hole. At some point wouldn't it make sense to complain about something else?

And as far as whether any of Rowney, McClement, Blueger, or Dea can limit Sid and Geno's minutes an improbable outcome is still a possible outcome. We have seen on numerous occasions over the past couple of seasons that the young guys can come up and be plugged into Sullivan's system and have success with the big club. So who knows?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I guess the question is how serious do people believe that signing Cullen was this summer and if you knew in July he wasn't returning, would you have done anything differently?

That's a hindsight question, but I'm curious.

If I KNEW that Cullen wasn't going to sign on July 1st, then I would have signed Moore. But that was anything but known, and Cullen was more than worth the risk.