Salary Cap: Roster Building | Contract Charts 1st Post | See You On The Dark Side Of The Moon

[billybudd]

So your rebuttal to me providing a perfect example disproving your claim is "open up your mind" and "Reaves will have an impact because I say so"? I can try to open my mind to the world being flat, but that doesn't make it true

I think you might be being a bit intellectually dishonest, here. Nobody says that because a team has a player like Reaves nothing will ever happen to anybody on the team. The idea is that it happens less often because most normal people have an instinct towards self-preservation and an inherent fear of getting their ass kicked in front of 20k people.

Posting a video of Farnham doing something doesn't really dispute this idea because, insofar as Farnham's known for anything at all, it's for neither showing much of an interest in self-preservation nor any compunction about taking public beatings.

 

[HandshakeLine]

God, summer is the worst for hockey talk. I can't wait for training camp.

 

[SCPens]

I think you might be being a bit intellectually dishonest, here. Nobody says that because a team has a player like Reaves nothing will ever happen to anybody on the team. The idea is that it happens less often because most normal people have an instinct towards self-preservation and an inherent fear of getting their ass kicked in front of 20k people.

Posting a video of Farnham doing something doesn't really dispute this idea because, insofar as Farnham's known for anything at all, it's for neither showing much of an interest in self-preservation nor any compunction about taking public beatings.

Thank Billy, I appreciate your 2 cents on this. Unfortunately there's some around here who can't comprehend this way of thinking...

 

[Randy Butternubs]

God, summer is the worst for hockey talk. I can't wait for training camp.

Same.

 

[Shaffer]

Ugh. Can't Rutherford just trade for someone right.

In all seriousness, I'd rather wait for a better 3C than pick up someone like Sheahan for a third.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yes, I did as a matter of fact in college. Whether you played the game or not is completely irrelevant to your knowledge of hockey, that's just a bull**** cop out argument.

You're not actually providing a single legitimate argument here, you're just blindly defending whatever the Penguins do as right and saying dumb crap like "how's the sand tasting"? Pointing out examples of other players getting run while Reaves is on the ice is literally a perfect rebuttal to your claim that "Reaves is going to impact the abuse Crosby and Malkin are going to take". It 100% proves it to be false. Want some more examples?



Johns hits Pietrangelo from behind, Reaves doesn't fight the right guy again.

despite being largely on your side of this, the bold is simply not true. Nobody is saying that Reaves 100% prevents all dirty hits from happening. People are saying it can reduce the amount of abuse they take.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I'm more arguing about this notion that anyone who likes the Reaves trade likes it because they believe he'll make sure Crosby and Malkin *never* get touched.

I don't think even the staunchest supporters of the trade or of enforcers in general believe that having one means that he'll prevent 100% of the potential dirty hits on our star players.

In other words, deterrent means "cut down on or reduce" rather than "eliminate entirely". But too often, people arguing against enforcers make it sound like the people arguing for them believe the "eliminate entirely" definition.

I'm sure a few people out there think it will, tbh.

The thing with deterrents is if they're worth it or if they'll make things worse in another way. I think any difference will be negligible and that retaliation can bite teams in the ass. Reaves might deter five incidents in a season but that's a drop in the bucket and it's just a dirty league now. The norm is cross checking and slashing. Maybe someone like Staal doesn't want to get run in retaliation for something egregious but a lot of the really dirty or dangerous players will carry on and a lot of the lower level problems won't register. Reaves might add fuel to the fire or get kicked out of the game and leave them down another player. Reaves might trigger the refs being *******s more than usual.

The problem is that the league needs to handle this **** through the reffing and DoPS. Players and teams can't police the game and them trying to does nothing and arguably feeds into the problem.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm sure a few people out there think it will, tbh.

The thing with deterrents is if they're worth it or if they'll make things worse in another way. I think any difference will be negligible and that retaliation can bite teams in the ass. Reaves might deter five incidents in a season but that's a drop in the bucket and it's just a dirty league now. The norm is cross checking and slashing. Maybe someone like Staal doesn't want to get run in retaliation for something egregious but a lot of the really dirty or dangerous players will carry on and a lot of the lower level problems won't register. Reaves might add fuel to the fire or get kicked out of the game and leave them down another player. Reaves might trigger the refs being *******s more than usual.

The problem is that the league needs to handle this **** through the reffing and DoPS. Players and teams can't police the game and them trying to does nothing and arguably feeds into the problem.

This is pretty much where I stand. I will say that I think back in the day, players were more effective at policing the game. But back in the day a guy like Reaves could just beat the **** out of somebody. Today, as soon as a guy turtles a bit the refs will just break it up anyway. Most of the guys giving out dirty hits don't give a **** about any sort of code, and they aren't scared of retaliation in the form of 2 punches to their helmet. I do think that he could help with guys like Staal though; the non-tough guys who act tough against us trying to get Sid or Geno off their games.

I'm not too worried about him adding fuel to the fire often though. He's pretty well under control from what I can tell. I don't expect him to be out there starting ****

 

[ColePens]

God, summer is the worst for hockey talk. I can't wait for training camp.

I recommend throwing in the Cup DVD. They did a great job this year. Last year's was rushed and I thought it sucked. This year's is really good. Some candid comments and gave a good storyline of the season.

And I think it's a great offseason when you have nothing to discuss. We didn't get hemmed in with idiotic contracts. We are looking for a 3C but our GM knows that and I trust he will find the right guy. He's constantly talking about players who fit our identity, and I REALLY like that.

There's just nothing to talk about.

 

[Jacob]

de·ter·rent

dəˈtərənt/
noun
1.
a thing that discourages or is intended to discourage someone from doing something.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

This is pretty much where I stand. I will say that I think back in the day, players were more effective at policing the game. But back in the day a guy like Reaves could just beat the **** out of somebody. Today, as soon as a guy turtles a bit the refs will just break it up anyway. Most of the guys giving out dirty hits don't give a **** about any sort of code, and they aren't scared of retaliation in the form of 2 punches to their helmet. I do agree that he could help with guys like Staal though; the non-tough guys who act tough against us trying to get Sid or Geno off their games.

Yeah, of course the NHL has made enforcerers and things in that vein pointless while not getting serious about policing the game. It's so comically incompetent about something very serious. The concussion lawsuit and lives of past enforcers after hockey also have to be factoring in or should be factoring in. I don't want to see Reaves get in ten fights a year and get hit in he head that much.

The Staals of the world might be deterred. He's not a tough guy, he's not good enough to avoid Reaves gunning for him when he's retrieving the puck, he's not big enough to shrug Reaves off and he's not good enough to burn Reaves. Pretty much the exact kind of player who's vulnerable to him.

I'm not too worried about him adding fuel to the fire often though. He's pretty well under control from what I can tell. I don't expect him to be out there starting ****

Him starting **** isn't really the problem. A big revenge hit might get another team to really goon it up or him getting thrown out could embolden some players.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, of course the NHL has made enforcerers and things in that vein pointless while not getting serious about policing the game. It's so comically incompetent about something very serious. The concussion lawsuit and lives of past enforcers after hockey also have to be factoring in or should be factoring in. I don't want to see Reaves get in ten fights a year and get hit in he head that much.

Yeah, the league has made it worse. They added enough rules to stop the enforcers, but they don't do nearly enough to stop the guys that needed enforcing.

The Staals of the world might be deterred. He's not a tough guy, he's not good enough to avoid Reaves gunning for him when he's retrieving the puck, he's not big enough to shrug Reaves off and he's not good enough to burn Reaves. Pretty much the exact kind of player who's vulnerable to him.

For what it's worth, I expect Reaves to be WAY harder for guys to avoid and shrug off than guys like Adams and Glass ever were. He's a better skater than both by a decent bit. He's not Letang or anything, but he's at worst average where Glass and Adams looked like they were skating in mud. I expect Reaves to play a lot like Rowney did at wing in the playoffs, only Reaves is a lot better at it.

 

[ColePens]

I am in the camp that believes it's the NHL's responsibility to make the game safer, not the player's anymore. But if Sid/Geno think Reaves will help and Reaves talked about working on his skating to not only enforce, but play, then chalk this up as a wait and see, too.

I never want to see the Pens sacrifice their identity (4 speed/fearless lines of offense), but JR and Sully have reiterated all summer long that they are not getting away from Pens hockey. That reassurance has put me at ease in a big way.

Am i keeping Reaves lack of offense in the playoffs in the back of my head? Yes. But this guy seems committed in a big way to not just being a fighter but being an NHL player who produces.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I am in the camp that believes it's the NHL's responsibility to make the game safer, not the player's anymore. But if Sid/Geno think Reaves will help and Reaves talked about working on his skating to not only enforce, but play, then chalk this up as a wait and see, too.

I 100% believe this too. But the league doesn't do it, so I don't blame JR for doing the best he can to deal with it. I'm not sure it actually works to deter much anymore, but if we're going to try it we might as well try it with the best. And Reaves is the best there is at this.

I never want to see the Pens sacrifice their identity (4 speed/fearless lines of offense), but JR and Sully have reiterated all summer long that they are not getting away from Pens hockey. That reassurance has put me at ease in a big way.

Am i keeping Reaves lack of offense in the playoffs in the back of my head? Yes. But this guy seems committed in a big way to not just being a fighter but being an NHL player who produces.

Yeah, I expect Reaves to play like Rowney did for us at wing these playoffs, not like some goon. He'll step in when he needs to, but I'll be surprised if he's out there starting ****. Sully won't have it imo. I also won't be surprised to see him killing penalties for us. Like you said, he's committed to being a real player. He works his ass off every time he's on the ice. He's not just going out for a skate looking for someone to punch. I don't expect him to do a ton of scoring, but I think he'll be an effective player.

 

[Shaffer]

Yeah, I expect Reaves to play like Rowney did for us at wing these playoffs, not like some goon. He'll step in when he needs to, but I'll be surprised if he's out there starting ****. Sully won't have it imo. I also won't be surprised to see him killing penalties for us. Like you said, he's committed to being a real player. He works his ass off every time he's on the ice. He's not just going out for a skate looking for someone to punch. I don't expect him to do a ton of scoring, but I think he'll be an effective player.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Yeah, the league has made it worse. They added enough rules to stop the enforcers, but they don't do nearly enough to stop the guys that needed enforcing.



For what it's worth, I expect Reaves to be WAY harder for guys to avoid and shrug off than guys like Adams and Glass ever were. He's a better skater than both by a decent bit. He's not Letang or anything, but he's at worst average where Glass and Adams looked like they were skating in mud. I expect Reaves to play a lot like Rowney did at wing in the playoffs, only Reaves is a lot better at it.

I expect him to be better than them as well, if only because they were snails and Bylsma treated them like his children. But someone like Ovechkin or Byfuglien probabiy could shrug him off and players like Marchand and Niskanen could be smart and mobile enough to avoid him.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I expect him to be better than them as well, if only because they were snails and Bylsma treated them like his children. But someone like Ovechkin or Byfuglien probabiy could shrug him off and players like Marchand and Niskanen could be smart and mobile enough to avoid him.

I mean yeah, the biggest guys in the league might be able to take a hit from him pretty well. But Reaves is a big dude himself. And he can't just hit whoever he wants at will, but he's been pretty good at catching guys with hits so far in his career. And not just defenders after they get rid of the puck.

This is a good example of him making a nice hit that most tough guys don't skate well enough to make.



And just for fun, here he is killing Patrick Kane. Obviously Pietrangelo helped, but still.


I have to say, the youtube rabbit hole of Reaves hits is a fun time

 

[Shaffer]

I remember myself browsing around youtube and I looked up Ryan Reaves fights and I was like, "Gosh, I wish the Pens had him." I didn't know he would cost Sundqvist + 20 spots

 

[Shrimper]

We're not in for Butcher are we?

 

[Riptide]

https://public.tableau.com/shared/JFJ9KXPCT?:display_count=yes

Hunwick vs Daley
As I see it, Hunwick is actually Daley's replacement. Hainsey was a deadline deal and would not have played with no injures. Now Daley would have, and he would have played bottom pair RD. Hunwick is supposed to play bottom pair RD.

They're different players. Daley is more like Letang in how he plays - just with less talent. Hunwick is more defense first. He can still stake well, and his first pass isn't too bad, but he's not going to wheel around like Daley would. He'll play more like Dumoulin in that regard.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

We're not in for Butcher are we?

He just signed with the Devils.

 

[Shaffer]

Butcher to Devils

 

[Shaffer]

They're different players. Daley is more like Letang in how he plays - just with less talent. Hunwick is more defense first. He can still stake well, and his first pass isn't too bad, but he's not going to wheel around like Daley would. He'll play more like Dumoulin in that regard.

Ya but he is Daley's replacement in the lineup. I have Maatta with Hunwick to start the year.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Butcher to Devils

Way to miss out on Butcher, JR. Rabble rabble Reaves rabble rabble McClement.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Way to miss out on Butcher, JR. Rabble rabble Reaves rabble rabble McClement.