Pre-Game Talk: Rookie camp discussion

[McOvechking]

I think Holland went out and signed a ton of options for our bottom 6 to prevent young guys from having an opportunity to prematurely start in the NHL.

Archibald, nygard, haas, jurco, granlund means that it is going to be next to impossible for Marody, Benson, McLeod, Yamamoto, etc to make the team.

The only guy I can see excelling to the degree that he forces himself on the team is Benson, and that's if he shows he can keep up with RNH.

 

[EXTRAS]

I know he's 25 years old but I thought they would have brought persson out for this given he's never played in north America.

 

[Morpheus]

Manning was a consistent healthy scratch in the AHL. Most of these guys have proven they are better already

I wonder if the oilers will loan Manning out to another AHL team this season once he is likely demoted from NHL camp.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I know he's 25 years old but I thought they would have brought persson out for this given he's never played in north America.

I think it's limited to under 25. Shane Starrett isn't there either even though he'd be an NHL rookie.

 

[Smartguy]

I think Holland went out and signed a ton of options for our bottom 6 to prevent young guys from having an opportunity to prematurely start in the NHL.

Archibald, nygard, haas, jurco, granlund means that it is going to be next to impossible for Marody, Benson, McLeod, Yamamoto, etc to make the team.

The only guy I can see excelling to the degree that he forces himself on the team is Benson, and that's if he shows he can keep up with RNH.

Not impossible, he wants competition, for the first time in the last 13 years if a minor player wants an NHL job he has to take someone’s, exactly what every strong franchise does

 

[bucks_oil]

Not impossible, he wants competition, for the first time in the last 13 years if a minor player wants an NHL job he has to take someone’s, exactly what every strong franchise does

While that is true... it is also true that the "job" they are "stealing" is from guys who, while older, have zero or limited NHL experience (Haas, Jurco, Nygard, and to a lesser extent Granlund).

Holland has done very very well with the hand he was dealt (a pair of aces, lots of gaps and no cap space) and it may all work out but it is also possible that we'll find ourselves needing to play some sub-NHL (or not yet ready for-NHL) level players in our bottom six.

I'm optimistic but there are plenty of less then 75% bets to make the team. (I include in there all of the older euros and all of the AHL/CHL prospects). Luckily Holland realized those odds and placed more bets, recognizing something might come in our favour.

 

[nexttothemoon]

I agree... Holland is going for the volume approach... quantity of competition over quality of proven assets.

We have to hope that from that large group of "possibilities"... something of actual substance emerges and makes the bottom 6 on the Oilers an actual positive for the team instead of the black pit of negativity it was last season.

 

[belair]

Manning was a consistent healthy scratch in the AHL. Most of these guys have proven they are better already

That likely had little if anything to do with his play down there.

Manning will start the year in Bako just due to the fact we get significant cap relief by waiving him. But he has proven capable of playing 18+ minutes at the NHL level. At the AHL level he's routinely led his team's defense while consistently gooning it up.

The bias is heavy against him. But there's a player there.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

That likely had little if anything to do with his play down there.

Manning will start the year in Bako just due to the fact we get significant cap relief by waiving him. But he has proven capable of playing 18+ minutes at the NHL level. At the AHL level he's routinely led his team's defense while consistently gooning it up.

The bias is heavy against him. But there's a player there.

Probably because he's not a good hockey player and shouldn't be taking a spot away from a developing prospect in the AHL.

 

[Fourier]

I would say you won't find another instance in which it probably doesn't matter what he does in rookie and main camp. The only that matters relative to that player is whether he can ever do it in actual regular season games.

I don't necessarily write the kid off. I dismiss his size and relative compete level and comfort playing in traffic. Until I see improvement occur against meaningful opposition I'm unhopeful.

Size is understandable. But his compete level and his willingness to play in traffic have always been his strong points. Hard to criticize those.

 

[Oilers in NS]

Not that I have high hopes for him or anything, but I'm interested to see what Safin has to offer.

The raw individual talent's always been there, but he had what can only be described as a disastrously bad 18/19 season. Can he bounce back from it?

I was at game he got hurt in Mem Cup. He was injured constantly last year

 

[belair]

Probably because he's not a good hockey player and shouldn't be taking a spot away from a developing prospect in the AHL.

He's talking about players passing him on the depth chart. If the money is there I prefer a player like Brandon Manning on the roster over a prospect who isn't prepared for the workload. The NHL isn't a development league.

 

[nexttothemoon]

He's talking about players passing him on the depth chart. If the money is there I prefer a player like Brandon Manning on the roster over a prospect who isn't prepared for the workload. The NHL isn't a development league.

While I get what you are saying... every team has players on their rosters that aren't fully developed and finished products at the NHL level. They can and do improve and develop while they are on the roster and in a cap league, you are always going to need younger players who aren't fully finished products because of cap reasons.

Players like Draisaitl/Nurse/Klefbom/Benning certainly developed as they played on the roster and arguably most players under 25 develop and evolve their games as they reach their ceilings at the NHL level.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

He's talking about players passing him on the depth chart. If the money is there I prefer a player like Brandon Manning on the roster over a prospect who isn't prepared for the workload. The NHL isn't a development league.

What workload? We're talking about a 7th defenceman in all likelihood - and not at his cap hit, I wouldn't. Even as a pure popcorn tester/cheerleader type, he drops our available cap from 3.5 million to 2.4 million and I'd imagine Holland is keenly aware of just how weak the current roster still is.

Manning had one decent season in Philly, but he was just plain bad last year. He shouldn't be anywhere near an NHL roster.

PTO Schlemko/Phaneuf/Stone, trade for Honka, sit Lowe the Younger up in the pressbox, hell PTO Reinhart for all I care - this year is too important to waste a roster spot on the likes of Brandon Manning. If a guy like William Lagesson can't come in and play 30 games for us as a 23 year old after playing top pairing minutes all year long, shoot Bakersfield into the sun.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

What workload? We're talking about a 7th defenceman in all likelihood - and not at his cap hit, I wouldn't. Even as a pure popcorn tester/cheerleader type, he drops our available cap from 3.5 million to 2.4 million and I'd imagine Holland is keenly aware of just how weak the current roster still is.

Manning had one decent season in Philly, but he was just plain bad last year. He shouldn't be anywhere near an NHL roster.

PTO Schlemko/Phaneuf/Stone, trade for Honka, sit Lowe the Younger up in the pressbox, hell PTO Reinhart for all I care - this year is too important to waste a roster spot on the likes of Brandon Manning. If a guy like William Lagesson can't come in and play 30 games for us as a 23 year old after playing top pairing minutes all year long, shoot Bakersfield into the sun.

Yeah, I assume they'll find some AHL team for Manning to play for.

 

[Fourier]

He's talking about players passing him on the depth chart. If the money is there I prefer a player like Brandon Manning on the roster over a prospect who isn't prepared for the workload. The NHL isn't a development league.

The phrase " the NHL isn't a development league" is one of my big pet peeves. It is a cliché that quite frankly is not true. At least as it is most commonly used. I would argue that the learning curve may be as steep in the NHL as it is in the AHL for most kids. The pace of the game, what you can and cannot get away with, how to carry yourself in public, etc. There are dozens of things every young player needs to deal with in making the transition into the NHL. For most this takes time and repetition, including a lot of mistakes. These kids are human beings after all and there is substantial research to support the premise that we learn more when pushed outside of our comfort zones.

I would agree that the primary role of the AHL is development and that development in the NHL is far less central. But in the truest sense the NHL is also a development league. This is especially true in a capped world where every team has to rely on inexperienced players to be successful.

If it comes down to Manning vs a kid and the kid is better then there is no reason not to give the kid a shot. Look at a guy like Lagesson for example. Normally you might think it best to have him playing big minutes in the AHL than it would be as a #7 with the big club. But if he ready defensively why not see what you have. At the very least he gets a chance to practice against a guy like McDavid or Draisaitl. If he is over his head, move on to the next guy. At least you will know who you want to focus on going forward.

Manning has no chance for a long term role on this team. He was a mistake. The only way I see him up with the big club is if all the kids show that they are not close to being ready.

 

[Digger12]

I was at game he got hurt in Mem Cup. He was injured constantly last year

I know, I probably should've been more specific in what I meant instead of just calling it 'disastrously bad'. I understand that his bad year had nearly everything to do with being unable to remain healthy.

My hope is that he'll be able to not only keep himself healthy and playing, but to recover some of the lost development time.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Size is understandable. But his compete level and his willingness to play in traffic have always been his strong points. Hard to criticize those.

You are correct. He does go into traffic, but he is ineffective there, and has trouble receiving pass or retaining puck in traffic areas. Sometimes his play without the puck is a mystery. One would expect a small player to find open ice or create separation. He seems to struggle with that. A player his stature requires premium anticipation, skating, and one step acceleration in any direction. He doesn't dance like he should. You have to be nimble like Gaudreau at his size.

 

[Digger12]

You are correct. He does go into traffic, but he is ineffective there, and has trouble receiving pass or retaining puck in traffic areas. Sometimes his play without the puck is a mystery. One would expect a small player to find open ice or create separation. He seems to struggle with that. A player his stature requires premium anticipation, skating, and one step acceleration in any direction. He doesn't dance like he should. You have to be nimble like Gaudreau at his size.

These mirror my concerns with Kailer. I like his determination, and I like how he can be scrappy in the corners and annoying on the forecheck. My concern is that for him it's going to be a style of play that's not going to be sustainable at the NHL level. The way he plays the game makes him annoying to play against, but it also will lead him to being either physically dominated or injured.

 

[CycloneSweep]

I love his confidence.

I don't think he will make the team. At the same time though if he makes the team and is a very solid defensemen right off the hop it wouldn't surprise me either

 

[CycloneSweep]

These mirror my concerns with Kailer. I like his determination, and I like how he can be scrappy in the corners and annoying on the forecheck. My concern is that for him it's going to be a style of play that's not going to be sustainable at the NHL level. The way he plays the game makes him annoying to play against, but it also will lead him to being either physically dominated or injured.

Depends really. He plays more like Gallagher than Gaudreau. He tends to get hurt a lot with his size so he needs to find ways to play his game and stay healthy. He needs to hit the gym HARD in the off seasons.

 

[belair]

The phrase " the NHL isn't a development league" is one of my big pet peeves. It is a cliché that quite frankly is not true. At least as it is most commonly used. I would argue that the learning curve may be as steep in the NHL as it is in the AHL for most kids. The pace of the game, what you can and cannot get away with, how to carry yourself in public, etc. There are dozens of things every young player needs to deal with in making the transition into the NHL. For most this takes time and repetition, including a lot of mistakes. These kids are human beings after all and there is substantial research to support the premise that we learn more when pushed outside of our comfort zones.

I would agree that the primary role of the AHL is development and that development in the NHL is far less central. But in the truest sense the NHL is also a development league. This is especially true in a capped world where every team has to rely on inexperienced players to be successful.

If it comes down to Manning vs a kid and the kid is better then there is no reason not to give the kid a shot. Look at a guy like Lagesson for example. Normally you might think it best to have him playing big minutes in the AHL than it would be as a #7 with the big club. But if he ready defensively why not see what you have. At the very least he gets a chance to practice against a guy like McDavid or Draisaitl. If he is over his head, move on to the next guy. At least you will know who you want to focus on going forward.

Manning has no chance for a long term role on this team. He was a mistake. The only way I see him up with the big club is if all the kids show that they are not close to being ready.

While I agree with this logic, my point was that a player like Manning has the experience carrying that kind of workload. If the goal is to find the player who's going to put you in the best position to win, a coach likely leans to the player he can rely on doing the job.

I agree if the kid shows better in camp, you absolutely give him the job over the replacement-level vet but I'm just explaining that we're not talking about some bumbling defenseman. Manning is a player with a decent resume before last season.

That being said, I will reiterate that Manning will start in the AHL simply due to his cap hit. But if the money is there, he's probably a legitimate call up option as the season progresses.

 

[Stud Muffin]

 

[Drivesaitl]

These mirror my concerns with Kailer. I like his determination, and I like how he can be scrappy in the corners and annoying on the forecheck. My concern is that for him it's going to be a style of play that's not going to be sustainable at the NHL level. The way he plays the game makes him annoying to play against, but it also will lead him to being either physically dominated or injured.

It stems from the way he developed as hockey player and always playing against older bigger kids and priding himself on doing that and so that getting in scrums on the ice is always something he's felt he could do. The trouble is at this level, and the physical strength players are in the WC particularly, he can't.

So that the fight in the little dog can only go so far in his case.

Most small players carve out a much different playing style. He seems to think he can physically compete for pucks. Once in awhile he can. But that's going to be meager pickings, not a steady diet.

 

[FlameChampion]

Not a great year for him. I hope he was able to work on some stuff over the summer while rehabbing.