Confirmed with Link: Ron Hextall fired as Exec VP/GM, Presser Tue 11/27 11am: Part 2

[Mike1167]

It was very noteworthy, and there was a lot of salt being passed around when people woke up the morning after Coburn was traded.

2 2nd round picks for an inactive Kimmo Timonen as well

That was a good trade as far as what we acquired for a guy who wasn't even playing for us, but I'm talking about trades that bring in immediate returns. Draft picks are great, until the players drafted ultimately fizzle out- which most do, unfortunately.

 

[Magua]

There’s a contingent of people here who want to trade our Kessel for B assets. Hmmm.

 

[Stizzle]

Honestly, it doesn't really seem like there is all that much to discuss at the moment. We just have to wait until the presser and hope Holmgren actually gives insightful answers as to his current philosophy towards 2018 Flyers hockey. Which may, or may not, happen.

The only info floating around now is agenda based 3rd hand BS from the Pierre's of the world, or smear campaign's trying to manipulate the public.

 

[Striiker]

OK I guess that was one.

But my point remains, it's not like that's a standard requirement of every rebuild. It's rare.

 

[Curufinwe]

It is kind of interesting how he looked so horrible here and now that he plays for a legit NHL coach he has been more than servicable as a 3rd line center.

His possession numbers are even worse in NY. Being crushed like a paper cup in shot attempts is the exact reason everyone here wanted him gone.

 

[deadhead]

How many teams have won the Cup with guys taken at the top of the draft.
Pens, Crosby, Malkin, MAF
Chi, Kane
LA, Doughty
Caps, Ovechkin
Heck Boston had Bergeron #45, Marchand #71

You don't need a bunch of elite guys, you just need a deep, quality roster.
Pens had the ultimate tank, but most teams have one of these guys.
Patrick is all of 20, but people are writing him off.

 

[Psuhockey]

Obviously I'm not talking about those guys or saying literally everything he did was bad, but nobody can deny there's a sizable list of terrible additions by Holmgren, as I've listed multiple times in this thread.

You know what I meant. If you're just going to be intentionally ignorant then I'll just stop responding...

And you keep glossing over the success of Holmgren and excusing Hextall’s lack there of. Holmgren had a record most franchises in the league would dream off: 6 of 8 years in the playoffs, 4 times in the 2nd round, 2 times in the conference finals and a Stanley Cup appearance. He left the team in a bad spot and Hextall deserves credit for digging them out but it shouldn’t have taken this long. Goalies and coaching are killing this team as you say, but Hextall chose both so that’s on him. At Hextalls pace, when would the team made it out of the first round? Year 6? Year 7? Compare that to what Hextall’s team accomplished and there is no comparison.

 

[Mike1167]

I'm asking when you saw a non-Flyers team make a trade like you're suggesting...

Big blockbuster trades that turn a team into a contender isn't something that happens... teams become contenders through drafting.

And free agency. Hextall was strapped with some bad contracts (thanks Holmgren), no doubt, and his maneuverability was limited. The talent is here, I believe anyhow. Maybe it's just Hakstol that has totally screwed things up. But you're right, blockbuster deals don't occur often in the NHL- not ones that take teams over the top, anyhow. Good point.

 

[Curufinwe]

Kyper on Tim and Sid. Here is what was said:

Lots of layers to the firing. Didn't fix goaltending. How can you not fix it when you yourself is a goalie. And Hart is not ready...could be 2-3 years....since he is only 20.

Biggest layer...Philadelphia Flyers BRAND has gone south. It's a business deal as much as anything else to start with a different philosophy. Don't like being 4th in the Philly market....with the 76'ers being a hot ticket adding Butler. And people picking up Flyers tickets for 30-40 dollars.

That's unacceptable in Flyers land.

And the Phillies about to spend some serious money on FA.

Then comes Saturday night and get squashed 6-0, no scrums, a penalty free game. I know the culture, that was as low as it's got in 30 years. Say what you will, hockey has changed, but the Flyers people have not changed. And they watch that game and say "I am not paying for that".

Also what happened was Ron isolated a lot of the alumni, which didn't sit too well. There is a point where you have to let go of the "old" Flyers ways, but it got to the point where it became uncomfortable for a lot of people, and I think what they still believe in, is to keep it within the Flyers family.

And what does that mean? Is it a Pronger that comes in? People dropping Briere's name...who has done a good job...but he is far too young to take over.

Crazy that they have never solved the goalie issue.

Even JVR at 7 million, not a typical Flyer.

People question why not in on Tavares? "Well he didn't want to be here"-Hextall quote. So what, still make a run. You are the Philadelphia Flyers and have been in on every FA teh last 25 years, didn't matter who was out there. It was a forgone conclusion that you would bid on a top FA. To not even knock on that door(Tavares), upset a lot of people as well.

You would have to brain dead to be upset about the Tavares situation. He had zero interest in any Metro team except the Islanders. The Flyers did knock and his camp said go away.

Hextall inherited Mason as starter, who tanked in his contract year and still wanted $4m+, so they let him go and replaced him with two goalies on two year deals . Both of which out performed Mason. How is that crazy? Because he didn’t trade for Darling or Bishop and give them long term deals. I’m glad the next GM isn’t shackled to an overpaid 30-something goalie.

 

[Embiid]

This isn't a Holmgren thing, it's a Comcast / Dave Scott thing. This isn't old man Snider's team or money anymore - Comcast wants ROI and will not settle for a boring product. They put more planning and effort into creating Gritty than Hextall put into building the team.

The business of business is business. Hextall's firing is as much a business decision as anything. We fans are trying to peel the onion as to the hockey firing aspect but when it comes down to it Hextall's ROI and long term play has not been good for business. The Flyers brand is devoid of an identity, the fans are leaving en masse ….the product has become indistinguishable from it's past glory even if you consider all of hockey has changed which blows but there is no excuse for this product we are seeing...ZERO. I mean I had a bad feeling and knew it was a harbinger to what we are seeing thus far when they engaged in the Gritty marketing ploy and all the other PR stunts. It has been utterly pathetic......putrid.....embarrassing. Whole lot a blame for this drama we are experiencing. Clarke, Holmgren...all accomplices in this crime against the fans and the institution that once was the Philadelphia Flyers......

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Hextall and Hakstol have conspired to downplay the draft themselves with the incredibly slow development cycle.

That's an astute point, and I hate you for connecting those dots in my head.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

When was the last blockbuster trade for any team that took them to the next level?

It's not common. You've got ~5 total leaguewide in the last decade or so -- Subban, Kessel, the Kings getting Carter and Richards, and I know I'm missing one. Other than that, you're going back to things like Pronger here, Luongo to Vancouver, Thornton to San Jose, etc.

Seguin and Hall were blockbuster acquisitions that didn't change a thing when it came to contenders.

 

[Rebels57]

This narrative about Elliott being a bad signing is only slightly less dumb than the one where Gudas wasn’t a good acquisition.

Not a bad signing at the time, but things changed after the 17-18 season and a more dependable goalie should have been acquired to replace either Elliott or Neuvirth (who never should have been given a 2 year extension) this past summer. Instead, as predicted, both have been injured multiple times only 1/4 of the way into the season.

 

[The Burdened]

ugh. If Carter Hutton was special he would still be in STL...or would have gotten more $$. I don't recall anyone clamoring for him in the off-season.

He's ultimately Brian Elliot.

and people not clamoring for Hutton is relevant how...?
We're not the GM.
We're not paid millions to make those calls and get them right.
It's not our job to identify finding a guy who can play in net.
We are nerds on a message board.

Ron Hextall was the GM. He failed. Again.
Boterill identified the right guy to go after.

Now we're here, with no goalies, a promising prospect that may as well be a mystery box who is facing tremendous adversity as a young pro and looks like he's going to be years away.

STL has their own problems and their GM should be on a hotseat as well.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Jeff Carter and a pick for some bad decent prospects and Gardiner

 

[Striiker]

And free agency. Hextall was strapped with some bad contracts (thanks Holmgren), no doubt, and his maneuverability was limited. The talent is here, I believe anyhow. Maybe it's just Hakstol that has totally screwed things up. But you're right, blockbuster deals don't occur often in the NHL- not ones that take teams over the top, anyhow. Good point.

And he did make a move in free-agency when he signed JVR, which is what signaled that his thinking had changed, from being fully focused on rebuilding to now looking towards competing. That's what made me optimistic that Hakstol was in danger if they were unsuccessful this year or if their current struggles remained... but now I guess we'll never know...

 

[JojoTheWhale]

and people not clamoring for Hutton is relevant how...?
We're not the GM.
We're not paid millions to make those calls and get them right.
It's not our job to identify finding a guy who can play in net.
We are nerds on a message board.

Ron Hextall was the GM. He failed. Again.
Boterill identified the right guy to go after.

Now we're here, with no goalies, a promising prospect that may as well be a mystery box who is facing tremendous adversity as a young pro and looks like he's going to be years away.

STL has their own problems and their GM should be on a hotseat as well.

Wait, Botterrill's good now? Because they're on a PDO heater?

 

[Striiker]

It's not common. You've got ~5 total leaguewide in the last decade or so -- Subban, Kessel, the Kings getting Carter and Richards, and I know I'm missing one. Other than that, you're going back to things like Pronger here, Luongo to Vancouver, Thornton to San Jose, etc.

Seguin and Hall were blockbuster acquisitions that didn't change a thing when it came to contenders.

Ah, there's a nice list, thanks. Basically what I thought: not unheard of, but not common.

Although, I'd probably add Subban to the list of ultimately inconsequential ones, don't you think?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Although, I'd probably add Subban to the list of ultimately inconsequential ones, don't you think?

Nashville got a sizable bump in my mind there. That's a massive upgrade for a ton of Minutes.

 

[baudib1]

how has nolan been held back, or tk, or ivan ?

I mean this is pretty easy. Nolan Patrick is touted by all as two-way center, he's been given 0 seconds on a historically bad PK and is being saddled with Dale Weise (who has been having a fine season for Dale Weise, but hey, when two of your prized prospects show terrific chemistry with each other, why keep that going?).

Travis Konecny was a spark plug on one of the very best lines in the league last year, got demoted for a meaningless end of season series against Pittsburgh, and Hakstol in the offseason openly said he had no idea if he should be the 1RW or 3RW. Also can' t figure out a way to use him effectively on the PP. (Remember that period for like two weeks last season when Knoblauch had them emphasizing scoring off the rush on the PP? TK might be effective in a strategy utilizing that).

Provorov played great with Ghost last year and after two weeks got sentenced to a perma pairing with Robert Hagg.

 

[Rebels57]

OK I guess that was one.

But my point remains, it's not like that's a standard requirement of every rebuild. It's rare.

A big trade can often put a team over-the-top, but it doesnt make a team a contender over night.

 

[The Burdened]

Wait, Botterrill's good now? Because they're on a PDO heater?

Not that he's good, but he's better than Ron Hextall and Ron Francis who both struck out everytime they dabbled in the UFA market and are now unemployed because they each guessed wrong.

 

[deadhead]

Hutton was a gamble, Elliott was a gamble, we had Elliott, we had to pay Hutton 3yr, $8.75M.
Check Hutton's career, we'll see if he holds up through January.

I think Hextall was planning on those big moves in a year or two, when the kids were up and it was time to finish off the roster.
Ironically, even if they happen a few months early, they're not going to salvage this season and we'd be in the same place next season, unless the GM Holmgren chooses screws the pooch.

You have to trade something to get something, other than Hart, Myers and Frost, what prospect would garner a top starter?
Trading a young starter on the roster (Lindblom, Ghost, Sanheim) just swaps one hole for another.
Trading a big name veteran (Simmonds, Voracek) is tough, you have to match contracts and needs.
You can always spend your future draft picks, but spend too many and the future is literally now, because you won't have a future.

The best time to make that big deal will be around the ED, when teams are willing to move an extra player for a ED exempt asset, or the Flyers move valuable draft vulnerable assets in a package to consolidate and expose a less valuable player.

 

[Mike1167]

And he did make a move in free-agency when he signed JVR, which is what signaled that his thinking had changed, from being fully focused on rebuilding to now looking towards competing. That's what made me optimistic that Hakstol was in danger if they were unsuccessful this year or if their current struggles remained... but now I guess we'll never know...

Believe me, when I heard the news I was disappointed. Hextall was one of my heroes when I was a teenager. Bobby Clarke was my idol when I was growing up, I had his poster on my bedroom wall (yes, I'm THAT old). I wish it was Hak that had gotten fired.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

It's amazing how the Flyers retroactively had both assets and cap space.

I think Paul Holmgren is one of the worst general managers in the history of professional sports, and I've always said Hextall inherited a mess of a financial situation with one of the weakest prospect systems in hockey. It's even scarier when you think of what could have been had Nashville not matched for Weber and had they been unable to buy out Bryz and offload Lecavalier. So I'm not ignoring those factors.

I absolutely give Hextall credit for remedying a bad cap situation and for doing a good job accruing draft picks and making what seem to be some pretty good draft selections. That said, he lucked out moving from 11 to 2 via lottery, and the 7th overall pick where they got Provorov was pretty hard to screw up (though maybe they should've taken Werenski or Barzal, and maybe they should've taken Elias Petterson over Patrick).

And though Hextall may not have had a ton of cap space for big acquisitions early in his tenure, he didn't find even one steal. He made some terrible evaluations, like trading Hartnell for Umberger, who ended up a buyout he was so bad. He terribly misevaluated Weise and Gordon (and Filppula). He fell in love with milquetoast "character" fringe players like Vandevelde, Schultz, and Bellemare (each of whom he RE-SIGNED). And again, NO steals at the NHL level (no Alex Karlssons, Jonathan Marchessaults, etc.), or trades for impact NHL players. That, plus the plodding nature of the roster and complete lack of emotion and identity in the roster, led to his rightful firing, IMO.

 

[Rebels57]

Ah, there's a nice list, thanks. Basically what I thought: not unheard of, but not common.

Although, I'd probably add Subban to the list of ultimately inconsequential ones, don't you think?

Marian Gaborik was a trade deadline addition in 2014 for the Kings too.