Rick Tocchet Rope Thread

[Bonsai Tree]

Players won't sign here, and will think twice about resigning here until the arena situation is finalized. Gologoski got sold a bill of goods and his current play might be reflective of that.

 

[cobra427]

Players won't sign here, and will think twice about resigning here until the arena situation is finalized. Gologoski got sold a bill of goods and his current play might be reflective of that.

I used to think this was true but I don't any more. Its pretty clear the NHL is staying in AZ one way or the other. I also think the reason Goose signed here was because we were the highest bidder, the same reason anyone else will sign here. If we bid the highest, players will sign.

I am not a fan of free agent signings in general because you generally over pay. The NHL contract system is ELC (way under paid), RFA (under paid), and UFA (way over paid). The system makes UFA's dangerous signings (Smith/Ribs/Maybe Goose).

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Doan himself admitted he wasn't engaged last year because he had nothing to play for. This year he would have been slower, no more engaged and it would have been a complete disaster to have him on the roster and as captain.

imo - of course.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Its pretty clear the NHL is staying in AZ one way or the other.

What's the other way?

I also think the reason Goose signed here was because we were the highest bidder, the same reason anyone else will sign here. If we bid the highest, players will sign.

We need real money to bid with before we can be the highest bidder. And cap space is not money.

 

[zz]

Doan himself admitted he wasn't engaged last year because he had nothing to play for. This year he would have been slower, no more engaged and it would have been a complete disaster to have him on the roster and as captain.

imo - of course.

I didn't mean to imply he should be playing this season. The problem is he left a void we couldn't fill. Winning teams tend to have a certain standard to live up to, or history / pride / whatever you want to call it. That usually is carried through the organisation from management down to coach and key players. Doan was the only player we had who had some semblance of actually giving a shit about this kind of thing, here in AZ. He never considered playing for a different team. Putting on a Coyotes uniform for 20 years meant something to him. We don't have anyone who can even begin to fill this role.

Anyway, it's all a moot point now. We're so bad, everyone's lost. I don't really have any beef against Tocchet, but this is where you usually want a coaching change so you can hit the reset button. But we can't afford that. So here we are, Oilers 2.0. Bound to suck in a toxic environment.

 

[cobra427]

What's the other way?



We need real money to bid with before we can be the highest bidder. And cap space is not money.

I don't know which way, just know they are staying in AZ, likely on the reservation now but city of Phoenix still trying. If we had a lot of money, I wouldn't spend it on a UFA other than to keep OEL.

 

[Mosby]

Re: Tippett's answer. He references LA as their best players not being their young players. But is that because LA doesn't really have any good young players? Do Pearson and Toffoli still count as young when they're 25?

Look at Toronto. Their best players are all young. Matthews, Nylander, Rielly, etc. Calgary with Monahan and Gaudreau (Johnny Hockey is still fairly young as this is only his 4th season). Anderson, Werenski, Jones, Wennberg, Dubois, etc. in CBJ. Forsberg and Fiala in Nashville. Bratt, Butcher, Hischier, etc in NJ. I could go on. These are all top teams or playoff teams.

 

[Jakey53]

First of all, this isn't a new concept with this team. But we also won games with a similar stance earlier in the decade.

The problem is that yes, our best forwards are all young guys, but for the most part, the young guys have only played against their peers. If this was a sport where college was a necessity to get to that next level, you are basically expecting a freshman to be able to compare with a senior. Even then, there are players in their 30s who are also a part of this and have so much innate knowledge of the game at the professional level.

So basically, you are saying that it will take time (agreed). Has it ever come up in the thought process that taking time can mean doing so not just at the NHL level, but at the AHL and/or junior level as well? And if it is at the NHL level, it happens on the bottom lines, as opposed to the top 6? I think that there is an expectation that just b/c our best forwards are young, they are still our best and should be able to make things happen. Fact is, there is still an incredible learning curve for these players.

I agree, but the problem this year is I don't see improvement from the kids. I think if the vets led by example you would see the kids follow.

 

[kbay]

Guys, do you realize this is the youngest team in the league? You all have been begging for a proper rebuild for years and this is getting given to you. Give the kids time to mold together and form a culture and identity.

Look at what's going on with the Erie Otters in right now. 4 straight 50 wins seasons, and OHL title and a Memorial Cup appearance and where are they? Right near the bottom of the league.

It's going to take time for this team to become competitive, and I think Tocchet is the right guy to do it (even though I wanted Keefe). Have some faith, don't jump the ship so early.

Someone finally gets it!!!

 

[kbay]

This is going to come out as a snarky question and I honestly don't mean it that way. But what in Tocchet's career as a coach leads you to believe he is the right guy for the Coyotes?

He's a players coach and they know he's been there done that. And if you talk to the people in Pittsburgh his leaving is the cause for the Pens struggles this season and they want him back.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

He's a players coach and they know he's been there done that. And if you talk to the people in Pittsburgh his leaving is the cause for the Pens struggles this season and they want him back.

Correlation does not imply causation. He may be a player's coach but he's not a good head coach. We all get that this team is the youngest, but Tocchet is not getting much out of them or out of the veterans on this team. I've said over and again that it's not that they lose, it's the way that they lose which makes me think that Tocchet is a poor coach.

 

[RemoAZ]

Correlation does not imply causation. He may be a player's coach but he's not a good head coach. We all get that this team is the youngest, but Tocchet is not getting much out of them or out of the veterans on this team. I've said over and again that it's not that they lose, it's the way that they lose which makes me think that Tocchet is a poor coach.

That's where I'm at. He rewards vets that play like garbage and screws with the young guys by playing them out of position, benching them or just putting them on shit lines. They aren't losing just because the team is young. I want to see more development. Domi at center? If he tries any of the wingers at center it should be Keller. Strome on the wing? When we need a center just like him? The Kempe lovefest than rolled over to Rinaldo and of course the Duclair hate. Just a lot of head scratching decisions that make it looks like he doesn't have a real plan to develop these guys.

 

[Mosby]

Let's just replace John MacLean.

 

[Jakey53]

My biggest concern is why the vets aren't playing up to their potential so far. You can expect young/rookie skaters to struggle at times with consistency. But for guys like Stepan, for example, they don't have that excuse. On top of this, I haven't seen anything holding those vets accountable for their performance so far...at least from my viewpoint as a fan. All that seems to be done is that a young guy gets scratched (or perhaps a fourth liner). Definitely some decisions I can't understand and things that just apparently aren't working.

I guess the way of a Coyote is not an easy way. Haha

I have being saying that since the start of the year. The kids are the scapegoat here, where the vets, or some of them should have been held accountable for their play. Sitting a vet or two would/should have woke them up and opened the eyes of the kids, but no, all they did was scratch the kids.

 

[Jakey53]

That's where I'm at. He rewards vets that play like garbage and screws with the young guys by playing them out of position, benching them or just putting them on **** lines. They aren't losing just because the team is young. I want to see more development. Domi at center? If he tries any of the wingers at center it should be Keller. Strome on the wing? When we need a center just like him? The Kempe lovefest than rolled over to Rinaldo and of course the Duclair hate. Just a lot of head scratching decisions that make it looks like he doesn't have a real plan to develop these guys.

I agree. The kids are not progressing, the vets aren't stepping up. No captain.

 

[Jakey53]

Doan himself admitted he wasn't engaged last year because he had nothing to play for. This year he would have been slower, no more engaged and it would have been a complete disaster to have him on the roster and as captain.

imo - of course.

I think Doan would have been a better player this year than last, because he had something to prove, but with Doan it's his leadership ability, something which this team sorely misses. People listen to Doan when he talks. While it might have been a complete disaster to have him, ( I don't think it would have ) just to have him around for the kids to lean on would have helped. Hell, it might have helped the vets to have him around. Even if Doan wasn't a player this year, management screwed up by not having him in the organization.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

He's a players coach and they know he's been there done that.

So were the previous two head coaches, though. At some point you have to have more than just experience as a player to fall back on when you're head-coaching a team.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Re: Tippett's answer. He references LA as their best players not being their young players. But is that because LA doesn't really have any good young players? Do Pearson and Toffoli still count as young when they're 25?

Look at Toronto. Their best players are all young. Matthews, Nylander, Rielly, etc. Calgary with Monahan and Gaudreau (Johnny Hockey is still fairly young as this is only his 4th season). Anderson, Werenski, Jones, Wennberg, Dubois, etc. in CBJ. Forsberg and Fiala in Nashville. Bratt, Butcher, Hischier, etc in NJ. I could go on. These are all top teams or playoff teams.

Tippett could just be referencing young players stepping up for the call. The Kings have gone through a total of 21 forwards so far this year, vs. our use of 15, and even then Kempe and Crouse have pretty much gone down and not come back - these aren't injury-related usage.

I think it refers to the balancing act and players around the age of 25 or younger are still in learning mode - even Toffoli (169th amongst forwards in TOI per game), Fiala (227th in avg TOI), and some of the others that you mentioned are not getting 18-20 minutes per game. There could be a balance of relying on them more later in the year, but that also feeds into the "prove yourself" territory to get more minutes. Adrian Kempe is only getting about 13-14 mins per game for LA.

Maybe there are a lot more coaches in the league who don't use the under 25 year olds in a ton of ways, but there are exceptions (McDavid, Eichel, and others). We have a lot of youth that are getting forced into those roles, but Perlini, Fischer, and Duclair are all getting similar ice time to what "Dino Dave" gave them last year, so if Tocchet does a similar approach, and by all accounts, a lot of coaches don't necessarily throw the young players to the wolves, maybe it was for the exact reasons that were argued the previous year, regarding getting players experience without overwhelming them.

It doesn't necessarily have to mean playing a player 17-20 minutes in every imaginable scenario, b/c you can kind of wind up breaking a player that way. Look at the team this year - I think that one could argue that putting a bunch of young players in scenarios that may not be appropriate for them will inspire less confidence over time, and that may be what we are seeing right now.

 

[BUX7PHX]

That's where I'm at. He rewards vets that play like garbage and screws with the young guys by playing them out of position, benching them or just putting them on **** lines. They aren't losing just because the team is young. I want to see more development. Domi at center? If he tries any of the wingers at center it should be Keller. Strome on the wing? When we need a center just like him? The Kempe lovefest than rolled over to Rinaldo and of course the Duclair hate. Just a lot of head scratching decisions that make it looks like he doesn't have a real plan to develop these guys.

The last sentence was one of the main reasons people hated our previous coach - maybe coaches have a little further depth of understanding the locker room than the posters on here do. Some head-scratching decisions may be to reward and/or punish certain players. Some may be in the interest of finding something to work with. Some may be in the interest of confirming something that an assistant brought up.

Maybe part of the problem with development is that it is a two-way street. The coaches can introduce the system and develop those players to play in that system. The players also have to maintain a certain regimen to keep them at the top of their game. That could certainly be the reason why an old coach referred to the NHL as being a "non-developmental" league. B/c if you take the time to teach absolutely everything and break everything down perfectly so that all players "get" it, by the time you are done with that, other teams have learned at a much faster rate. Then, it looks like things aren't working and then you have players who try and do things "outside of the system." The player knows he shouldn't pinch in this situation, but we have lost 6 games in a row playing this way, so why not do it? Then, that play has a moment of success this one time in this one game, and the player starts to think that b/c it resulted in good, maybe it should be done more. Now, once the player becomes comfortable with playing outside the system, but getting some small benefit out of it every so often, what happens when his choice affects the entire team decision-making process? Now, that player has to go back and re-learn what was taught in the first place. It's like a form of remedial education, in a way.

But again, an older coach was not given any rope for doing the exact same thing. And the team at least looked somewhat competent.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

IMO, the best mix on a successful team is equal parts good veteran starters, solid veteran grinders, and talented youth, with a captain who can solidly integrate all three and help them communicate with each other.

The Coyotes, on paper, have the ingredients but the quantities are off. We could use a couple more of the "good veterans" and one or two fewer "solid grinders." And we very definitely don't have our leader. OEL is not the guy who can be a bridge between team factions - he's a captain candidate largely because of his talent. I don't think either Stepan or Goligoski have the chops to do it, either, if their on-ice performance is any indication.

We've been spoiled by having Doan for two decades. Seriously, you could question Doan's longevity and even his effort towards the end, but one thing you never questioned was his heart and his ability to get everyone on board. When Doan spoke, everybody listened. Who on our roster fits that bill? Nobody that I can think of.

 

[cobra427]

Coaches need to put their team and their players in a position to succeed. Martinook came into the NHL along with Reider and they both succeeded. Same with Duclair in his first year and Domi too. Richardson was having a great year before he broke his leg last year. OEL had a good year on a bad team until he got hurt and had family issues last year. It seems like their were different guys playing above expectations the last few years even as bad as we were as a team.

This year, outside of Keller's fast start, we have zero players exceeding expectations and many below expectations. It seems like players are not being put in a position to succeed. None of the vets have been at expectations other than Tjam and he has been hurt. The vets should be better regardless of the coach unless the coach/system is so far off it makes them all look bad. Goal tending got the blame early and although I agree it was bad, I also thought it was a scape goat.

 

[Jamieh]

Coaches need to put their team and their players in a position to succeed. Martinook came into the NHL along with Reider and they both succeeded. Same with Duclair in his first year and Domi too. Richardson was having a great year before he broke his leg last year. OEL had a good year on a bad team until he got hurt and had family issues last year. It seems like their were different guys playing above expectations the last few years even as bad as we were as a team.

This year, outside of Keller's fast start, we have zero players exceeding expectations and many below expectations. It seems like players are not being put in a position to succeed. None of the vets have been at expectations other than Tjam and he has been hurt. The vets should be better regardless of the coach unless the coach/system is so far off it makes them all look bad. Goal tending got the blame early and although I agree it was bad, I also thought it was a scape goat.

It is much easier to be a good NHL'er for one year than it is to grow from that. You can catch other NHL players by surprise in year 1 but they will know you after that and if you can't continue to raise your game you will not have the same success level. I think this is easy to see with guys like Reider, Martinook, and Duke. Look at a couple of Leafs 2nd year guys like Marner and Nylander, they are now having trouble reproducing last year's success.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

It amazes me that people can watch yet another epic meltdown in the Panthers game and not think that we need a new coaching staff.

 

[Murf]

It amazes me that people can watch yet another epic meltdown in the Panthers game and not think that we need a new coaching staff.

That's rich team talk. Tocchet isn't going anywhere.

 

[rt]

I said mid-high 70's.

Here are the two prediction threads.
Pre- Demers trade: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/how-will-we-do-with-no-further-major-moves.2378277/
Post-Demers trade: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/the-2017-2018-arizona-coyotes-prediction-thread.2389377/

If you read through the threads there are a lot of regulars who didn't offer up a prediction, probably because it was hard to say.

Hmmm...

Team Results
We've had a full blown leadership and coaching turnover. The roster is going to be extremely young and inexperienced. I think we will struggle hard out of the gate and eventually get our act together and finish strong. I think we will choose to sit on our hands at the deadline, citing our progress and we will be rewarded with a great finish and a ton of hope for next season. Something like:

First 21gp - 5-13-3
Next 20gp - 8-11-1
Next 20gp - 10-8-2
Final 21gp - 15-4-2

1st Half: 13-24-4 (26-48-8 - 60pt pace)
2nd Half: 25-12-4 (50-24-8 - 108pt pace)
Full Season: 38-36-8 - 84pts

So, if we win our next five games in a row, I'll have been dead-on for my first 41 prediction. C'mon boys!!! Haha

EDIT: I don't math. Even with the 5 game win streak we'd be 12-24-5 rather than my 13-24-4 prediction. I'd be off by 1 point. Still, I'll take it!