Rick Tocchet Rope Thread

[TheLegend]

Did anyone have their expectations this low?

I said mid-high 70's.

Here are the two prediction threads.
Pre- Demers trade: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/how-will-we-do-with-no-further-major-moves.2378277/
Post-Demers trade: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/the-2017-2018-arizona-coyotes-prediction-thread.2389377/

If you read through the threads there are a lot of regulars who didn't offer up a prediction, probably because it was hard to say

Domi and Stepan being unable to score is killing this team post-Domingue. There are lots of other issues but two top 6 guys have been either so snake bitten or so lackadaisical that the performances by certain players like Fischer, Keller, Duclair , and to a lesser extent Perlini overshooting their targets is being nullified.

Sniper covers most of it. I stopped making any expectations a very long time ago. Call it a side effect of the BoH forum if you will.

I only expect the team to make an effort to compete for 60 minutes. Watching this team playing most, if not all of last season, not to lose when they had a lead pissed me off more than anything.

They’ve done it a few times this season as well but not as much so I view it as an improvement. Is it enough? Hardly... but you can’t expect old habits to away over the course of a summer either.

 

[cobra427]

Vegas 32 games with 44 points. Coyotes 35 games with 19 points. Vegas is 25 points ahead of us with 3 games in hand! Vegas with a new coach new system, all new players, leftovers from other teams. Vegas/AZ are the definition of well coached and poorly coached teams. Vegas is the biggest over achiever and the coyotes are biggest under achiever this year so far. Stunning really

 

[Jakey53]

Maybe that’s the problem. Too many people here had their expectations set too high.

Maybe some did, but most knew this was not a playoff team, but nowhere this bad.

Did anyone have their expectations this low?

I don't think anyone had us this bad, except the media, but they always had us last.

I said mid-high 70's.

Here are the two prediction threads.
Pre- Demers trade: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/how-will-we-do-with-no-further-major-moves.2378277/
Post-Demers trade: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/the-2017-2018-arizona-coyotes-prediction-thread.2389377/

If you read through the threads there are a lot of regulars who didn't offer up a prediction, probably because it was hard to say

Domi and Stepan being unable to score is killing this team post-Domingue. There are lots of other issues but two top 6 guys have been either so snake bitten or so lackadaisical that the performances by certain players like Fischer, Keller, Duclair , and to a lesser extent Perlini overshooting their targets is being nullified.

True, but they are not consistent, which I guess has to be expected. Like DT and RT have said, "we have no room for error", but when you have two or three or four passengers a night the chance of winning is near zero.

 

[Jakey53]

Sniper covers most of it. I stopped making any expectations a very long time ago. Call it a side effect of the BoH forum if you will.

I only expect the team to make an effort to compete for 60 minutes. Watching this team playing most, if not all of last season, not to lose when they had a lead pissed me off more than anything.

They’ve done it a few times this season as well but not as much so I view it as an improvement. Is it enough? Hardly... but you can’t expect old habits to away over the course of a summer either.

Are you saying we have improved over last year?

 

[Jakey53]

Vegas 32 games with 44 points. Coyotes 35 games with 19 points. Vegas is 25 points ahead of us with 3 games in hand! Vegas with a new coach new system, all new players, leftovers from other teams. Vegas/AZ are the definition of well coached and poorly coached teams. Vegas is the biggest over achiever and the coyotes are biggest under achiever this year so far. Stunning really

I don't think you can compare Vegas and the Yotes. We are the youngest team in the league and on our third year of the rebuild. Vegas has all vets with experience and a good but not great coach. Still, Vegas has done better and the Yotes worse than I thought this year.

 

[BUX7PHX]

One thing that is not necessarily Tocchet's fault is the moves that were made to transition us from "rebuilding" into "competing."

If we had kept the youth intact and didn't go out and get the players like Stepan, Hjalmarsson, Raanta, and Demers, then I think it buys Tocchet a little more time. The fact that we did go out and get those players tells me that ownership/management truly believed that we were going to be closer to being a strong and competitive team this year. Probably not the truth, but something about Tocchet's interviews made the group believe that this guy was ready to take the team on a path at a much quicker and more successful rate. Guess not.

Also, someone mentioned this being Tocchet's first year. First year with Arizona, yes. He was also the interim coach in Tampa after taking over for Melrose, and he got one full year in the 2009-10 season. In the 09-10 season, the Lightning finished 34-36-12. New ownership after that year and Tocchet was replaced by Boucher. The next year, Boucher takes them to a 46-25-11 record. I can't say that Tocchet did or did not deserve more time with Tampa, but the team did not appear to change so much (from a roster perspective) that the players may have been the root cause.

 

[Puck possession wins]

Guys, do you realize this is the youngest team in the league? You all have been begging for a proper rebuild for years and this is getting given to you. Give the kids time to mold together and form a culture and identity.

Look at what's going on with the Erie Otters in right now. 4 straight 50 wins seasons, and OHL title and a Memorial Cup appearance and where are they? Right near the bottom of the league.

It's going to take time for this team to become competitive, and I think Tocchet is the right guy to do it (even though I wanted Keefe). Have some faith, don't jump the ship so early.

 

[Mosby]

Dave Tippett is no solution if you read his responses from a recent interview. He hasn't adjusted his mindset at all.

LeBrun: None of us like those kind of breaks. Can you share some thoughts on what you’re observing this season watching the game from 10,000 feet, the game, of course, continues to evolve and it’s faster than ever; but what are some of the things you feel you’re going to bring back to your toolbox when you’re back behind an NHL bench?

Tippett: One of the biggest things now, there’s a ton of integration of young players, but it’s interesting to see how the teams that have success have some young players and they bring them along the right away. Young players are very evident in the game, but you watch the good teams right now, the young players aren’t the forefront of it for the most part, they’re mixed in. L.A. is a good example of that. Their top players have really played well and they’ve integrated some young players in, but they’re very much in a secondary role and still have an impact on their game. It’s a young’s man game today for sure. The speed of the game is ever-increasing. But people talk about the speed of the game, right away to a lot of people it means players that skate fast; it’s players that think fast and execute fast are the ones that are having success in the game right now. It’s not just about the skating stride.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

It's going to take time for this team to become competitive, and I think Tocchet is the right guy to do it (even though I wanted Keefe).

This is going to come out as a snarky question and I honestly don't mean it that way. But what in Tocchet's career as a coach leads you to believe he is the right guy for the Coyotes?

 

[cobra427]

One thing that is not necessarily Tocchet's fault is the moves that were made to transition us from "rebuilding" into "competing."

If we had kept the youth intact and didn't go out and get the players like Stepan, Hjalmarsson, Raanta, and Demers, then I think it buys Tocchet a little more time. The fact that we did go out and get those players tells me that ownership/management truly believed that we were going to be closer to being a strong and competitive team this year. Probably not the truth, but something about Tocchet's interviews made the group believe that this guy was ready to take the team on a path at a much quicker and more successful rate. Guess not.

Also, someone mentioned this being Tocchet's first year. First year with Arizona, yes. He was also the interim coach in Tampa after taking over for Melrose, and he got one full year in the 2009-10 season. In the 09-10 season, the Lightning finished 34-36-12. New ownership after that year and Tocchet was replaced by Boucher. The next year, Boucher takes them to a 46-25-11 record. I can't say that Tocchet did or did not deserve more time with Tampa, but the team did not appear to change so much (from a roster perspective) that the players may have been the root cause.

Without those trades, Tocc would have a built in reason for being pretty bad. With those trades he has less of an excuse. He left TB and the team flourished the following year without much in the way of roster changes.

With coaching, you can look at how a team does before and after a coaching change. Tip turned the team around with little change in talent when he took over for TGO. Tmac left San Jose and they went to the cup finals. Tmacs first year in Edmonton he missed the playoffs. Last year, he made it in on the heels of McDavid/Drai/Talbot, all having great years. This year the Oilers are dismal. I don't think Tmac is a good coach. Roy was criticized in Colorado but when he left Colorado was really bad last year. We have the same situation this year for the Coyotes. Maybe Tip was better at getting more with less then anyone thought. Remember, Dallas struggled for years after he left.

The Kings look better now, so maybe replacing Sutter made sense. The argument is the coach goes stale which can be true. The tough part is evaluating where you are at versus where you should be and how much of it has to do with the coach. A proven head coach would have been too expensive for the Coyotes. Instead they went the cheaper and riskier route. If they eventually have to make a change, it will cost them more in the long run then if they had landed a veteran coach in the first place. We have an inexperienced owner, with a very young and inexperienced GM, that both agreed to hire an unproven NHL head coach.

Because of money, Tocc will get well into next year before they consider a change. Maybe by then he can turn it around with more time. I am hoping he can learn how to be a good head coach given time since he is going to get time anyway.

 

[Kaizen]

Dave Tippett is no solution if you read his responses from a recent interview. He hasn't adjusted his mindset at all.

I don't see anything particularly out of line in that response Mosby. In fact it would seem to me to be pretty much on the button.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Dave Tippett is no solution if you read his responses from a recent interview. He hasn't adjusted his mindset at all.

I call straw man. No one here is calling for Tippett to be rehired. This is a Tocchet thread, not a comparo thread.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Dave Tippett is no solution if you read his responses from a recent interview. He hasn't adjusted his mindset at all.

I don't get what you are missing from this interview - this says exactly what has been said all along.

Just because a player skates fast doesn't mean that he plays fast. Enver Lisin is a great example. Wheels for days. But it all comes down to the decision-making process. If you go out on the ice and make decisions with the puck that are a) correct within the system and b) done without having to hesitate, then you will wind up way ahead.

Maybe that is a reason why the team did have success without a ton of rookies - they grow because they don't have too much being asked of them, but they are also able to integrate themselves into the system by playing some of the lower lines. Adrian Kempe is averaging 13 mins of ice time for LA. Tofolli, at a shade under 16 minutes, hasn't hit his peak avg TOI (17 minutes per game in 15-16 season), but he often only got 12-15 minutes in seasons prior to that.

Sometimes, just throwing players out for the sake of getting them time doesn't work in any sort of a convenient way and can build bad habits before sparking good habits. Then, you have to undo the bad habits once you identify the bad habits that have continued. If anything, that response shows just how out of tune some people are with the process of building a team. Generational players come along every once in a while, so the likelihood of getting one and letting him loose to wreak havoc on the league is probably slim. Since the Coyotes don't quite have one of those (but a lot of very good players), there will be some time to build up, but we will trip all over ourselves if we build up a talented team with poor habits. Based on Tocchet's comments about players not showing up in condition, not eating right, and all of the other excuses that he should have oversight on, I would say that this is the exact reason why you make players earn it.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

From my perspective, the problem is that our best forwards are all young guys and they'll need time to mature and grow as players, because they aren't McDavid. Keller has been our best forward and he's 19yrs old. Now, I don't think Tocchett is an above average coach, I think he's a below average coach...which isn't going to help the rebuild.

I wanted Tippett gone and thats great that we pulled the plug on that travesty, but now we've got to get through the next 3 year without doing something stupid and lose our best players, I think we'll come out of it ok.

Gotta get the Center ice position improved, all the great teams are solid down the middle. Stepan is a #2, and playing below that level, Dvorak is a #3 and playing below that level. Richardson is a #4 and playing to that level and Strome should be a #1, but playing to a #4 level. Currently, we have 2 #3s and 2 #4s, there is no wonder we're losing games. Center ice has to be fixed or the kids improve dramatically.

 

[Name Nameless]

We are talking about a team with so little depth, the Coyotes could protect Cousins in the expansion draft... A team who ended up losing a man now playing in the AHL... You really have to look at the material the coach gets before you judge him. With a minimum team the coach must adjust the plans. The team is still fighting, even if the games are lost, look at how close it is. How many games are lost in the last minute? When the team can ice a real goalie, this team still holds NHL-level. If the owner had money to spend, that should be spent on finding some fine UFA in Europe, or something. Sadly, no money to spend then... But firing the coach? I don't get it.

 

[BUX7PHX]

We are talking about a team with so little depth, the Coyotes could protect Cousins in the expansion draft... A team who ended up losing a man now playing in the AHL... You really have to look at the material the coach gets before you judge him. With a minimum team the coach must adjust the plans. The team is still fighting, even if the games are lost, look at how close it is. How many games are lost in the last minute? When the team can ice a real goalie, this team still holds NHL-level. If the owner had money to spend, that should be spent on finding some fine UFA in Europe, or something. Sadly, no money to spend then... But firing the coach? I don't get it.

Yet we have far more depth now as when things like this were brought up with Tippett 2-3 years ago. This is nothing new, except that people are saying the same excuses (we don't have enough talent, we don't spend, etc.). But in this instance, these excuses are brought up to save Tocchet's job, when they were brought up as reasons to fire the old coach.

This is why people say it isn't a Tocchet vs Tippett thing, but the reality is that is exactly what it is. When the same reasons to defend firing a coach are used as the same reasons to defend keeping a coach, it does have something to do with the name, and not the system that is being preached.

 

[Jakey53]

Dave Tippett is no solution if you read his responses from a recent interview. He hasn't adjusted his mindset at all.

DT is 100% right. With the Coyotes the vets have not lead the way, or at least for the most part. I have thought that was a big problem right from the start.

 

[BUX7PHX]

From my perspective, the problem is that our best forwards are all young guys and they'll need time to mature and grow as players, because they aren't McDavid. Keller has been our best forward and he's 19yrs old. Now, I don't think Tocchett is an above average coach, I think he's a below average coach...which isn't going to help the rebuild.

I wanted Tippett gone and thats great that we pulled the plug on that travesty, but now we've got to get through the next 3 year without doing something stupid and lose our best players, I think we'll come out of it ok.

Gotta get the Center ice position improved, all the great teams are solid down the middle. Stepan is a #2, and playing below that level, Dvorak is a #3 and playing below that level. Richardson is a #4 and playing to that level and Strome should be a #1, but playing to a #4 level. Currently, we have 2 #3s and 2 #4s, there is no wonder we're losing games. Center ice has to be fixed or the kids improve dramatically.

First of all, this isn't a new concept with this team. But we also won games with a similar stance earlier in the decade.

The problem is that yes, our best forwards are all young guys, but for the most part, the young guys have only played against their peers. If this was a sport where college was a necessity to get to that next level, you are basically expecting a freshman to be able to compare with a senior. Even then, there are players in their 30s who are also a part of this and have so much innate knowledge of the game at the professional level.

So basically, you are saying that it will take time (agreed). Has it ever come up in the thought process that taking time can mean doing so not just at the NHL level, but at the AHL and/or junior level as well? And if it is at the NHL level, it happens on the bottom lines, as opposed to the top 6? I think that there is an expectation that just b/c our best forwards are young, they are still our best and should be able to make things happen. Fact is, there is still an incredible learning curve for these players.

 

[Name Nameless]

Yet we have far more depth now as when things like this were brought up with Tippett 2-3 years ago. This is nothing new, except that people are saying the same excuses (we don't have enough talent, we don't spend, etc.). But in this instance, these excuses are brought up to save Tocchet's job, when they were brought up as reasons to fire the old coach.

This is why people say it isn't a Tocchet vs Tippett thing, but the reality is that is exactly what it is. When the same reasons to defend firing a coach are used as the same reasons to defend keeping a coach, it does have something to do with the name, and not the system that is being preached.

The fact "we don't have enough talent, we don't spend, etc." isn't excuses, but facts.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

My biggest concern is why the vets aren't playing up to their potential so far. You can expect young/rookie skaters to struggle at times with consistency. But for guys like Stepan, for example, they don't have that excuse. On top of this, I haven't seen anything holding those vets accountable for their performance so far...at least from my viewpoint as a fan. All that seems to be done is that a young guy gets scratched (or perhaps a fourth liner). Definitely some decisions I can't understand and things that just apparently aren't working.

I guess the way of a Coyote is not an easy way. Haha

 

[BUX7PHX]

The fact "we don't have enough talent, we don't spend, etc." isn't excuses, but facts.

I don't know if you were on the boards last year, so forgive my smarm. Last year and in previous years, the Tippett "apologists" would all state these things, and we would constantly be reminded by posters about how those are all excuses, when some of us would say that they aren't excuses and are instead facts.

I will give the benefit of the doubt here that you were not on the boards, but this is the type of thing that I would expect from others on this site. Last year, those were all excuses, but change the coach, and they become facts.

So, I beg your pardon by declaring those things as excuses (trying to get people to see how non-sensical their thought process was), when yes, they are facts. The problem is that many people don't know how to separate the two, and it takes a season like this for others to see the err in their ways.

BTW, I know it is 32 pages of material, but we can see just how correct/incorrect some people's thoughts were:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...-two-three-they-gonna-run-back-to-me.2165893/

My favorite from page 2 was rt's post in response to irreversible complacency that has set in:

"I think it's reversible, just not with this staff. If you fire Tippett and his staff, and then move Hanzal, Stone, Vrbata and Doan(if he's ready), I think that's enough of a culture shock to reset the team."

This also was what sprang up my past conversation of how players react to wins and losses, especially new players. People talked about the "long term health" of the team as relates to putting a bunch of rookies who are in over their heads out there. Guess which direction we are trending in with that process?

 

[zz]

I think the end of Doan's tenure has a lot to do with this mess. Once Yandle left, he was the only player who honestly cared about being a Coyote, not just an NHL player. This franchise means nothing to anyone on the current roster. The young guys just want to be somewhere on the NHL, the vets just want to get paid.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I think the end of Doan's tenure has a lot to do with this mess. Once Yandle left, he was the only who honestly cared about being a Coyote, not just an NHL player. This franchise means nothing to anyone on the current roster. The young guys just want to be somewhere on the NHL, the vets just want to get paid.

You are so right. None of these players on the roster give a crap more than the obvious cliched platitudes about being an Arizona Coyote. In fairness, pro sports does little to encourage market loyalty because of free agency and trades, but this team feels like a bunch of mercenaries rather than a team.

Then again, who wouldn't be mercenary, what with the team perennially on the cusp of relocation and a succession of small-money owners? Anecdotally, I can tell you that some of the players' agents were told to advise their clients not to make long-term housing plans for Phoenix. So where does that leave us?

 

[Bonsai Tree]

You are so right. None of these players on the roster give a crap more than the obvious cliched platitudes about being an Arizona Coyote. In fairness, pro sports does little to encourage market loyalty because of free agency and trades, but this team feels like a bunch of mercenaries rather than a team.

Then again, who wouldn't be mercenary, what with the team perennially on the cusp of relocation and a succession of small-money owners? Anecdotally, I can tell you that some of the players' agents were told to advise their clients not to make long-term housing plans for Phoenix. So where does that leave us?

At risk of being screwed without even a kiss first. That's where it leaves us.

 

[zz]

Then again, who wouldn't be mercenary, what with the team perennially on the cusp of relocation and a succession of small-money owners? Anecdotally, I can tell you that some of the players' agents were told to advise their clients not to make long-term housing plans for Phoenix. So where does that leave us?

Absolutely. I don't blame the players - why would they care?

If I'm 20 and getting my shot at the NHL after working my ass off in juniors and AHL, my #1 concern is staying in the roster and keep a spot in the big league. We don't have a Crosby who came in and took that entire franchise on his shoulders. All of our youngsters are borderline at this point, still learning the game at this level.

OEL does enough to justify his big contract, and I love the guy, but I don't sense a passion for this team. I think he could be traded tomorrow to Nashville and be a happy camper.

Goligoski is the only vet who actually chose to stay here, as opposed to being forced via trade. They're here to do their job, but I don't expect any of them to feel like they owe the fans anything more.