Salary Cap: RFA Marner - Silence until solution to the matter one way or the other

[93LEAFS]

Overpayers gonna overpay.

Marner’s max should be
10.5 x 8
9.5 x 6
7.5 x 3

If he gets 11 x 6 you could probably say goodbye to one of Rielly or Fred when their contracts are up and any chance at resigning Barrie. Unless there is massive cap movement and TV revenues coming.

I hope he’s been crying in a pillow since the leaked rejection. Money being thrown around is madness.

Fine with saying goodbye to Barrie. If anyone signs him to the terms he alledgedly wants, the back-end of that deal is going to be horrific. Losing Freddie would suck temporarily, but again, another situation where the back-end of the deal is likely to hurt us, although not as bad as Barrie.

 

[jrgtml67]

Thing is Nylander’s camp kept quiet and Marners camp were ridiculous and demanded the moon, and disrespected the best player on the team
He’s been a weasel and could have been the biggest star this city has seen in some time

You realise it was his agent being an idiot and spilling things to the media not Marner. The leafs pulled a weasel move BUT genius, leak it that he turned down 11million thatd make him the highest paid winger over God DAMN Kucherov even..

 

[Elvis P]

Does Marner want to be traded?

 

[jrgtml67]

Fine with saying goodbye to Barrie. If anyone signs him to the terms he alledgedly wants, the back-end of that deal is going to be horrific. Losing Freddie would suck temporarily, but again, another situation where the back-end of the deal is likely to hurt us, although not as bad as Barrie.

Umm ya..we know the max we can do is 11 without a trade. No way in hell they let Barrie and or Muzzin go. Freddy even mentioned is a joke

 

[jrgtml67]

Does Marner want to be traded?

Clearly.....not

 

[93LEAFS]

Umm ya..we know the max we can do is 11 without a trade. No way in hell they let Barrie and or Muzzin go. Freddy even mentioned is a joke

He meant when it came time to their renewal. I'm keeping Marner through ages 22-28 over Barrie and Anderson in their early to mid 30's. Rielly will be prioritized.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

$10.5 x 6 would be good all around I think if the math works on the Leafs cap without having to trade anyone.

That's what I predicted about 4 or 5 months ago (around the time of the first thread on this subject). It went over like a lead ballon then of course, but it seemed rather inevitable to me.

Matthews contract of 5 years (versus 8) acted as an endorsement of sorts for Marner's approach to his new contract ...... unfortunately. Tavares ($11 m) contract acted as an endorsement of sorts for Matthews approach to his new contract.

 

[meefer]

Flying back to Toronto today, what am I going to be getting into? Marner 24/7?

 

[budzz]

Not exactly sure about the points you are trying to make (not a crystal clear post), but there is tax treaty between Canada and United States. One of the basic principles is eliminating a double taxation situation e.g. paying taxes to two countries for the same income. So he may have to file a Canadian tax return, but would get a credit for the U.S. taxes that are paid on his Canadian tax return (hence avoiding the double taxation).

There is another process that would apply here, namely the Determination of Residency Status. So, based on this process, if the individual is deemed not to be a resident of Canada, then the individual would not have to submit a Canadian tax return. If the person works in the U.S., pays taxes in the U.S., resides in a property in the U.S. that is owned by that individual, then typically that person would be deemed to be a non-resident.

And yes, getting paid in U.S. dollars and converting those U.S. dollars to Canadian dollars (given the difference in exchange rates) would be a nice boost in revenue.

First, good points Keon. I know there was an article a while back talking about tavares' contract, how he would save millions by continuing to have his primary residence listed in the US.
However, and like many here I am no tax expert, if I'm not mistaken players have to pay a portion of tax based on the city/state/province they are working in I believe? I have read that somewhere... because they are actually working in any given state, they pay state taxes for that day somehow some way. That would be 41 home dates in canada (as well as any other canadian province and their tax rate). I may be way off there but the calculation is complicated.

Tax rates are considerable yes, and the exchange rate plays a factor. But also consider the Leafs can front load and offer a boatload up front, or over the first few years. marner wouldn't get, say, 20 million during the first calendar year of a contract there like he can here. Any good accountant could crunch that, and invest in the first years, and with luck get anywhere from 5-10% (maybe more?) return in real money over the first few years... that could be considerable.

Don't get me started on Marner vs tavares, any more than Marner vs Matthews. I take the stud center 10 times out of 10. Tavares has earned it and I never saw the guy take a shift off. Pure pro and very very good, and has been for his whole career. Proven stud. Matthews is, well, borderline generational if he stays healthy. Don't get me wrong, marner is very very good too, but really it's not even close.

 

[KobeBean143]

 

[KobeBean143]

Must be out to dinner with Paul

 

[Cor]

LOOOOOL

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Overpayers gonna overpay.

Marner’s max should be
10.5 x 8
9.5 x 6
7.5 x 3

If he gets 11 x 6 you could probably say goodbye to one of Rielly or Fred when their contracts are up and any chance at resigning Barrie. Unless there is massive cap movement and TV revenues coming.

I hope he’s been crying in a pillow since the leaked rejection. Money being thrown around is madness.

Fine with saying goodbye to Barrie. If anyone signs him to the terms he alledgedly wants, the back-end of that deal is going to be horrific. Losing Freddie would suck temporarily, but again, another situation where the back-end of the deal is likely to hurt us, although not as bad as Barrie.

Losing players was always going to happen eventually and typically does as star ELCs get their pay day. It wasn't a popular thought a couple years of go, but it was inevitable.

We moved Kadri, a Center with multiple years remaining on his contract for possibly one year of Barrie. That isn't exactly the ideal move in a perfect world, but its something that happens in the cap world. Things were bound to get more difficult and challenging as time progressed and our stud ELCs got older unfortunately. The easier phase of the cycle has pretty much run its course now.

 

[stickty111]

So it looks like Dubas is willing to overpay Marner a little but it has to be a reasonable overpay.
6 at 10-10.50 fits that.

 

[stickty111]

James on Twitter

I can live with 6 at around 10.50, but it's not great.
Also people need to get rid of the belief Marner is being disrespected by Dubas. He has been offered overpayments.

 

[93LEAFS]

Not exactly sure about the points you are trying to make (not a crystal clear post), but there is tax treaty between Canada and United States. One of the basic principles is eliminating a double taxation situation e.g. paying taxes to two countries for the same income. So he may have to file a Canadian tax return, but would get a credit for the U.S. taxes that are paid on his Canadian tax return (hence avoiding the double taxation).

There is another process that would apply here, namely the Determination of Residency Status. So, based on this process, if the individual is deemed not to be a resident of Canada, then the individual would not have to submit a Canadian tax return. If the person works in the U.S., pays taxes in the U.S., resides in a property in the U.S. that is owned by that individual, then typically that person would be deemed to be a non-resident.

And yes, getting paid in U.S. dollars and converting those U.S. dollars to Canadian dollars (given the difference in exchange rates) would be a nice boost in revenue.

It basically started over someone talking about not paying for property in Tampa in CAD, to USD.

As for the USD to CAD factor. Yes, you get more money theoretically, but it ignores the purchasing power of USD. Most goods are equal in prices, rarely with a significant difference after factoring in currency exchange. Toronto, given the price of real-estate (Toronto being one of the most expensive real-estate markets in North America) and taxation in many ways, is not a great place for high-earning individuals with mobility until you get into things like emotional factors (family close by, I like the lifestyle of the city, etc). For example, I find most of the low tax places in hockey not very appealing for me on a lifestyle basis, and many of the very expensive ones very (Toronto, NYC, Bay Area) as places I would choose to live. But, to say it all balances out economically due to endorsements and so on was based on nothing for a variety of reasons. Such as endorsement deals are still taxed at a higher rate than most US states if you live here, your agent can only get about 2.5% of you NHL earnings while getting generally between 10%-20% on non-hockey salary (mainly endorsements and so on).

 

[Metroid]

So it looks like Dubas is willing to overpay Marner a little but it has to be a reasonable overpay.
6 at 10-10.50 fits that.

6 @ 10.16 works for me

 

[Cor]

I’m gonna guess 10.516 x 6 years.

I don’t love it.

I don’t hate it.

It’s just there.


I don’t get how Marner doesn’t just take 7x11 in June though

 

[93LEAFS]

James on Twitter

I can live with 6 at around 10.50, but it's not great.
Also people need to get rid of the belief Marner is being disrespected by Dubas. He has been offered overpayments.

I don't think anyone thinks (or its a very small minority) that he is being disrespected. He isn't. The issue is the pandora's box Matthews deal opened up by re-setting the market (we will do fine on that deal most likely, but it was far from ideal, and absolutely had a huge carryover effect). The primary issue I had with posters screaming trade the spoiled brat, is that it seems to basically be a vindictive reaction, rather than something based on the information at hand. I think we win more on an overpay, than dumping him when he is making this demand (some of the returns people expected weren't going to happen). And, even if we did overpay significantly, I believe he has more trade value in a year when his contract is set, rather than when he can dictate terms to where he is willing to go (no gm is trading significant assets for an unsigned RFA with huge demands).

 

[HoweHullOrr]

First, good points Keon. I know there was an article a while back talking about tavares' contract, how he would save millions by continuing to have his primary residence listed in the US.

However, and like many here I am no tax expert, if I'm not mistaken players have to pay a portion of tax based on the city/state/province they are working in I believe? I have read that somewhere... because they are actually working in any given state, they pay state taxes for that day somehow some way. That would be 41 home dates in canada (as well as any other canadian province and their tax rate). I may be way off there but the calculation is complicated.

Tax rates are considerable yes, and the exchange rate plays a factor. But also consider the Leafs can front load and offer a boatload up front, or over the first few years. marner wouldn't get, say, 20 million during the first calendar year of a contract there like he can here. Any good accountant could crunch that, and invest in the first years, and with luck get anywhere from 5-10% (maybe more?) return in real money over the first few years... that could be considerable.

Yes, you remit taxes to the jurisdiction (state/province, etc.) where you earned that money. I've both owned and worked for U.S. corporations that had to pay taxes for work they did in Canada as an example. However, because of the tax treaty, you essentially don't double pay for those taxes that were paid while working in another jurisdiction. On the federal level, you would get a tax credit for the taxes you've already paid for the earnings you made in those other jurisdictions.

Further, establishing domicile in a low- or no-tax state can save an athlete thousands in taxes by sheltering their endorsement and investment income in a lower tax jurisdiction than where their team is located. Investment income is also a pretty large consideration and we tend not talk about that kind of thing here.

 

[cipher]

Consider the fact that the cap has not gone up by 3-5M every year and I will consider the rest of your valid points except for thinking that because the players you mentioned are RFA's that they will automagically sign for just $1 or 2M increases. Why are we in this predicament with Marner if RFA's have no leverage compared to UFA's?

On average, the cap has increased by 3M/yr since it was first introduced in 2005-2006. It's also increased recently by an average of 3M/yr since the last time it actually dropped down in 2012-2013. Most people are expecting the Seattle expansion and gambling revenues to increase these numbers so I think I'm either right there or slightly under where they will be over the next 5 years.

I'm not saying they are going to accept a 1-2M increase because they are RFA's I'm saying that is likely to be what they will achieve in the NHL given they are 3rd/4th liners. Maybe one or two of them excels in that role and would deserve more, but they're negotiating position is limited given the elite players on our team earning a big chunk of the cap. We may lose some of these players over the next decade (see Chicago), but that is the salary cap era we live in. This theme is going to play out even more across the NHL as the young stars get paid these sums when they become RFA's. I'd even say this year is the tipping point given the number of young stars in this situation.

Also, I do believe Marner is somewhat limited as a RFA. First, he has to sign a contract or he will be in the exact same position next year which means 4 years away from becoming a UFA. Second, if he did decide to play somewhere like Switzerland he's taking a double shot at his earnings. He's losing the difference between what he would be paid here versus what he would be paid in Switzerland. Lets assume these numbers are 11M vs 2M, which means that's 9M he will never recover. Second, he's also losing out on any sponsorship agreements he could sign in this market. The sum of those two hits will easily exceed whatever amount his camp is trying to negotiate above 11M. Even if they were asking for 12M/8yrs that's 8M more than the Leafs total offer, but he would lose more than this if the Leafs kept firm and made him sit. Obviously, the Leafs don't want to ruin the relationship with one of there best players, but this threat will always be in the background of these negotiations.

 

[KobeBean143]

 

[KobeBean143]

 

[LeafChief]

It's about to go down.

 

[jrgtml67]

Sounds like maybe today..the fact Dreger (mr negative throughout) says today or weekend possibly. 6yrs at just over 10.5 is better to me than 3yrs at lesser. I want Marner locked in and that puts him up with only JT (correct me someone if I'm wrong)