Proposal: Red wings target for 2C

[Fear]

What has Kasper done to deserve all these high accolades? Score 8 goals in the SHL?

 

[Detroit Knights]

Yeah, I think it's safe to assume that Calgary isn't going to sell like we had originally hoped. Firing Sutter might be what fixes that team and gets them into the playoffs next season.

All the players that asked for a trade apparently rescinded the request the day after sutter left. So, who knows anymore.

 

[norrisnick]

What has Kasper done to deserve all these high accolades? Score 8 goals in the SHL?

Have a better 18yo season than Raymond did?

 

[Pavels Dog]

That's a good 2C.

Yeah. Which is fine. If..

- he doesn't want to be paid like a good 1C (would you give him the same contract as Larkin? He'll ask for it)
- he can continue to produce even on a worse team (his production is not very consistent)
- it doesn't cost us multiple good assets (1sts/top prospects) to acquire him

 

[norrisnick]

Yeah. Which is fine. If..

- he doesn't want to be paid like a good 1C (would you give him the same contract as Larkin? He'll ask for it)
- he can continue to produce even on a worse team (his production is not very consistent)
- it doesn't cost us multiple good assets (1sts/top prospects) to acquire him

- He can certainly ask. Doesn't mean he'll get it. I don't think there's a league wide belief that he's ever been the driver on his line, unlike Larkin and his lines.
- The whole reason to acquiring him is to make our team better than say Calgary, thus making it a better team.
- You can't get good players without giving something up. If you're not willing to give up a 1st plus you're not going to get a good player.

 

[Pavels Dog]

- He can certainly ask. Doesn't mean he'll get it. I don't think there's a league wide belief that he's ever been the driver on his line, unlike Larkin and his lines.
- The whole reason to acquiring him is to make our team better than say Calgary, thus making it a better team.
- You can't get good players without giving something up. If you're not willing to give up a 1st plus you're not going to get a good player.

- Even so, he's UFA and will certainly be looking for 6-7 years and 7+ mil. Maybe more. This is his big payday coming up.
- We're still lacking the playdrivers. Like you say, Lindholm isn't one. Until we acquire/develop more playdriving players what's the point? If Copp can score 50 points in a healthy year and Lindholm 60, how much is that 10 point difference worth? A 1st+? Certainly not in my mind.
- You can, by drafting and developing them. It's also possible to acquire good players via trade without giving up a ton of futures (see; Walman trade, Fabbri trade, Husso trade etc)

 

[norrisnick]

- Even so, he's UFA and will certainly be looking for 6-7 years and 7+ mil. Maybe more. This is his big payday coming up.
- We're still lacking the playdrivers. Like you say, Lindholm isn't one. Until we acquire/develop more playdriving players what's the point? If Copp can score 50 points in a healthy year and Lindholm 60, how much is that 10 point difference worth? A 1st+? Certainly not in my mind.
- You can, by drafting and developing them. It's also possible to acquire good players via trade without giving up a ton of futures (see; Walman trade, Fabbri trade, Husso trade etc)

- And I would certainly give Lindholm 6 or 7 years at or around $7M. Say the Kadri deal. Done, easy.
- Up front. Seider and Edvinsson are certainly of the play driving potential. Kasper has the potential that hasn't made the jump. The trick of a 60pt Lindholm is that it knocks everyone down to a level that they're more suited at. You don't have to ride Copp quite as hard as a matchup center as Lindholm is capable as well. And if you have Larkin, Lindholm, and Copp to go along with Kasper you don't absolutely have to draft a center. You can take a chance on that really skilled winger because you have stability down the middle.
- Lindholm is better than Walman, Fabbri, and Husso. He'd be our 2nd best forward.

 

[Reddwit]

- Even so, he's UFA and will certainly be looking for 6-7 years and 7+ mil. Maybe more. This is his big payday coming up.
- We're still lacking the playdrivers. Like you say, Lindholm isn't one. Until we acquire/develop more playdriving players what's the point? If Copp can score 50 points in a healthy year and Lindholm 60, how much is that 10 point difference worth? A 1st+? Certainly not in my mind.
- You can, by drafting and developing them. It's also possible to acquire good players via trade without giving up a ton of futures (see; Walman trade, Fabbri trade, Husso trade etc)

How is Copp, a guy who has scored 50+ points exactly once, a guaranteed 50 point player if healthy, but Lindholm, who has averaged 0.87 ppg over the past 5 years a mere 60 point player?

Copp is, at best, a 40-50 point guy. He’s scored 50+ once and paced for it one other time. Lindholm, on average, is a 65-70 point player. He’s paced for no less than 0.8 points in 4 of the last 5 years.

Lindholm is a substantial upgrade over Copp.

 

[Frk It]

How is Copp, a guy who has scored 50+ points exactly once, a guaranteed 50 point player if healthy, but Lindholm, who has averaged 0.87 ppg over the past 5 years a mere 60 point player?

Copp is, at best, a 40-50 point guy. He’s scored 50+ once and paced for it one other time. Lindholm, on average, is a 65-70 point player. He’s paced for no less than 0.8 points in 4 of the last 5 years.

Lindholm is a substantial upgrade over Copp.

Getting Lindholm would be like adding another Larkin to this team.

- Even so, he's UFA and will certainly be looking for 6-7 years and 7+ mil. Maybe more. This is his big payday coming up.
- We're still lacking the playdrivers. Like you say, Lindholm isn't one. Until we acquire/develop more playdriving players what's the point? If Copp can score 50 points in a healthy year and Lindholm 60, how much is that 10 point difference worth? A 1st+? Certainly not in my mind.
- You can, by drafting and developing them. It's also possible to acquire good players via trade without giving up a ton of futures (see; Walman trade, Fabbri trade, Husso trade etc)

If Lindholm isn’t a play driver, would love to know how many play drivers you think we have on this team.

Look at his year by year possession numbers for his career.

 

[Spitfire11]

Lindholm is a good player but would you really want to give up the required assets and tie up at least $7mil for 7 years for him? These playoffs seem to be showing speed is what wins and he’s a slow player that is only going to get slower going into his 30’s. He’s also never really excelled as a line driver, this season was the first year he was the best player on his line and he put up a respectable but unspectacular 64 pts and that’s getting top line and PP minutes which he wouldn’t be getting here. I think they’d be better off looking elsewhere personally.

 

[Pavels Dog]

How is Copp, a guy who has scored 50+ points exactly once, a guaranteed 50 point player if healthy, but Lindholm, who has averaged 0.87 ppg over the past 5 years a mere 60 point player?

Copp is, at best, a 40-50 point guy. He’s scored 50+ once and paced for it one other time. Lindholm, on average, is a 65-70 point player. He’s paced for no less than 0.8 points in 4 of the last 5 years.

Lindholm is a substantial upgrade over Copp.

How much of Lindholm's production was due to playing with Gaudreau and Tkachuk? How well are we hoping he ages into his 30s? Do we want to be paying 7 million to a 35 year old Lindholm when we are in the middle of our projected cup window?
Copp isn't a guaranteed 50 point player but he's capable of doing it and a decent enough two-way guy to hold down the fort while Kasper develops. Most importantly we're not paying him until he's 37 and he didn't cost us an arm and a leg to acquire.

 

[Snuggs]

Like literally every playoff team? These players disagree with you:

Kotkaniemi/J.Staal
Bennett
Cirelli
Seguin
Danault
Stephanson/W.Karlsson - Stephanson is actually an example what happens when a middle of the road center is surrounded with good offensive players. and give them PP time.
Trochek
Compher
Gourde/Wennberg

More than half of playoff teams were dressing players who are comparable to Copp as their 2C.

Red Wings won their last Cup with Filppula as their 2 C. And I don't even remember who was Blackhawks 2C, nobody cared they had Hossa playing with him.

How many first line winger have Red WIngs currently? 0,5? I think it's more of priority to upgrade a position which lacking and easier to find an upgrade. And they also have Kasper waiting in the wings who should be capable to play at least on Copp level in 2 years.

I think all those players are better than Copp is except Wennberg. So yeah, Idk. Just my opinion which doesn't mean much.

Obviously, some people agree with you but, it's hardly a credible argument to name a bunch of guys who had similar point totals, but all almost doubled up Copp in goals or played less games with still more goals or points. Looking up that they all had around 40 points only means so much at the surface. Copp played more games than almost all those guys above and produced less, and way less goals. Then, every one of them did better on the power play.

Also, do people actually think Lindholm wouldn't be our 2nd or 3rd best player immediately? This arm and leg thing for cost... No one really suggested giving up the whole war-chest I don't think?

 

[Snuggs]

Getting Lindholm would be like adding another Larkin to this team.


If Lindholm isn’t a play driver, would love to know how many play drivers you think we have on this team.

Look at his year by year possession numbers for his career.

Yeah... Lindholm's not a play driver now, Copp is. An if he isn't a Winger will fix it.

Idk about this logic. It better be a Winger like Kane/Teemu Selanne playing with Copp. Those HOF'ers Wingers aren't exactly easy to find either.

I hate how all michigan/detfans always look to the "the future". Pav's-dog has already thrown out the season next year and the offseason hasn't even started! #Can'tCompete

Idk, I just find it tough Red Wings can go get a Winger like Chaisson for next to nothing and he'll be more effective than any Winger on the roster for the PP. But trying to go get a C better than Copp is actually hard. If you have an opportunity to do that, I think you do it. Upgrading the Winger position is exponentially easier than trying to find/replace a high minute center position(s).

I'm not going to be upset either if they go out and target some big-name Winger though either. It's just, if it was me, I'd be looking for upgrades at 2nd line C. An that also doesn't mean I'd ignore the Winger position, just, it's easier to find an effective player at wing vs center, imo. Truthfully, I'd be trying to figure out how to get/trade for Lindholm and DeBrincat; Signed. That probably sends some people into full panic mode because Red Wings would become competitive without really being a cup favorite.

 

[DoMakc]

I think all those players are better than Copp is except Wennberg. So yeah, Idk. Just my opinion which doesn't mean much.

Obviously, some people agree with you but, it's hardly a credible argument to name a bunch of guys who had similar point totals, but all almost doubled up Copp in goals or played less games with still more goals or points. Looking up that they all had around 40 points only means so much at the surface. Copp played more games than almost all those guys above and produced less, and way less goals. Then, every one of them did better on the power play.

Also, do people actually think Lindholm wouldn't be our 2nd or 3rd best player immediately? This arm and leg thing for cost... No one really suggested giving up the whole war-chest I don't think?

Your whole point was that Red Wings need a better 2C than Copp to get into playoffs. I don't want to get into discussion who is better Copp or Danault. That's why you get a lot examples where playoff teams have a similar production from their 2C spot (and it's not like Copp is a defensive liability and PP was not his role, so more ES points by Copp is actually an argument for him).
Hell Rangers traded for Copp last year in order for him to be their 2C. And he performed quite well in that role, was enough for them to get to Game 6 of ECF.

You may say, but what about Panarin, who he played with. And that's exactly my point - I'd rather invest in other slots in the lineup, where the upgrade is much more significant and costs might be more justified. So instead of paying 30-year-old Lindholm 7+ next 7 years to be 2C and paying Copp 5,6 next 4years to be a 3C, I'd rather pay a "Panarin" 11 for next three years and improve ES offense and PP.

 

[Spitfire11]

We can all agree we’re glad they don’t have Trocheck signed for another 6 years, right?

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

We can all agree we’re glad they don’t have Trocheck signed for another 6 years, right?

100%.

Lindholm is a great player.

I'm betting he tries UFA after his flames deal.

And anyone trading for him will face the same thing.

 

[Shaman464]

Getting Lindholm would be like adding another Larkin to this team.


If Lindholm isn’t a play driver, would love to know how many play drivers you think we have on this team.

Look at his year by year possession numbers for his career.

Lindholm won't be racking up points with whatever warm bodies he'd be playing with over the next couple in Detroit. He'd be lucky to hit 60 points (and probably would be under 55 points) in Detroit over the first couple seasons of any contract. At that point he's north of 30 and you're looking at more of the downside years of his contract than the best years of them. If Detroit is going to move prime futures for a center that center needs to still be under 30 in 2025-26.

 

[Snuggs]

Well with 33 million if they did make some trade, even for someone else outside of Lindholm.

Highly doubt that they don't bring in more talent to play top minutes. 33 million to spend. Don't have to spend it all but we do have to hit the cap floor.

It's not going to be the same 'warm bodies'. They'll be a few new top-notch players for us coming in this offseason.

 

[Snuggs]

Your whole point was that Red Wings need a better 2C than Copp to get into playoffs. I don't want to get into discussion who is better Copp or Danault. That's why you get a lot examples where playoff teams have a similar production from their 2C spot (and it's not like Copp is a defensive liability and PP was not his role, so more ES points by Copp is actually an argument for him).
Hell Rangers traded for Copp last year in order for him to be their 2C. And he performed quite well in that role, was enough for them to get to Game 6 of ECF.

You may say, but what about Panarin, who he played with. And that's exactly my point - I'd rather invest in other slots in the lineup, where the upgrade is much more significant and costs might be more justified. So instead of paying 30-year-old Lindholm 7+ next 7 years to be 2C and paying Copp 5,6 next 4years to be a 3C, I'd rather pay a "Panarin" 11 for next three years and improve ES offense and PP.

Well no, first off I said every team in the playoffs has a more capable 2nd line C.

Every playoff team has a 2nd line center MUCH more capable than what Copp is. Totally disagree with this statement. The 2nd line center for the Red Wings almost needs to be as good as Larkin.

Or literally we just aren't on the same level as other teams, While also, needing the scoring you're talking about. (Possibly two birds with one stone if you go get a good enough Center).

I don't hate Copp. Think he helped this team more than people give him credit for, but if you wanna win Cups or a Cup. He can't be your 2nd best option at C.

You are the one that mentioned a cup with Copp not just a playoff appearance.

I disagree with a notion that Wings need center. They need offense first and foremost, they need more goals. You can win Cup with Andrew Copp as your second line center - he actually had quite an nice season for he his role and given his offseason. It's a question who he is playing with and who is playing ahead and below him in the line-up.

An I'm saying no way unless you've got massive talent throughout the lineup not just on the wing with him. You'd need four or five 20+ goal scorers imo.

Dannault is a better defensive center than Copp in almost all stat you measure for that side.

You can't really go sign a Panarin right now, or any winger with that scoring capability, so your point is just, idk, make believe. I'd rather pay for McDavid too, but it's not really possible right now.

An for the Rangers, lines 1-4 where way more talented than Wings roster and even given the chance to pay Copp they opted to pay someone else. Says enough, imo.

 

[Snuggs]

- And I would certainly give Lindholm 6 or 7 years at or around $7M. Say the Kadri deal. Done, easy.
- Up front. Seider and Edvinsson are certainly of the play driving potential. Kasper has the potential that hasn't made the jump. The trick of a 60pt Lindholm is that it knocks everyone down to a level that they're more suited at. You don't have to ride Copp quite as hard as a matchup center as Lindholm is capable as well. And if you have Larkin, Lindholm, and Copp to go along with Kasper you don't absolutely have to draft a center. You can take a chance on that really skilled winger because you have stability down the middle.
- Lindholm is better than Walman, Fabbri, and Husso. He'd be our 2nd best forward.

This is a good post. Articulated better than I could explain.

If Lindholm isn't a play driver, it'd be interesting to see who people would consider a play driver.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Well with 33 million if they did make some trade, even for someone else outside of Lindholm.

Highly doubt that they don't bring in more talent to play top minutes. 33 million to spend. Don't have to spend it all but we do have to hit the cap floor.

It's not going to be the same 'warm bodies'. They'll be a few new top-notch players for us coming in this offseason.

There isn't much in the way of big name free agents this summer. This is one of the worst UFA classes we have had in a while unless you're a contender going after one of the stars in their 30s.

I will say on the Lindholm speculation. You can put one of the best defensive top 6 units that still chips in offensively by deploying Copp on his wing and having the two take all draws on their dominant side switching off the circles. If you put Ras on the other wing I think you could cycle people to death but I am not sure there is enough playmaking. You could put Perron with them and plug Ras with Larkin and Raymond. That is a legit top 6. You let Kasper develop on the third line, but you can see the improvement here. I still think we need more offensive punch and more speed.

I would like to add Myles Wood to the bottom six in UFA. I think we need his speed and abrasiveness.

 

[Snuggs]

There isn't much in the way of big name free agents this summer. This is one of the worst UFA classes we have had in a while unless you're a contender going after one of the stars in their 30s.

I will say on the Lindholm speculation. You can put one of the best defensive top 6 units that still chips in offensively by deploying Copp on his wing and having the two take all draws on their dominant side switching off the circles. If you put Ras on the other wing I think you could cycle people to death but I am not sure there is enough playmaking. You could put Perron with them and plug Ras with Larkin and Raymond. That is a legit top 6. You let Kasper develop on the third line, but you can see the improvement here. I still think we need more offensive punch and more speed.

I would like to add Myles Wood to the bottom six in UFA. I think we need his speed and abrasiveness.

Oh I agree, putrid crop to choose from. The cap floor is what 61 or 62 million? So they've got legitimately 11-12 million they have to spend, even if it's 1-year deals.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Oh I agree, putrid crop to choose from. The cap floor is what 61 or 62 million? So they've got legitimately 11-12 million they have to spend, even if it's 1-year deals.

Given Tarasenko and Perron played together quite a bit, I would consider him on a high dollar short term deal if he will do it. We need goal scorers. Just not sure why he signs with us.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

Given Tarasenko and Perron played together quite a bit, I would consider him on a high dollar short term deal if he will do it. We need goal scorers. Just not sure why he signs with us.

Well, he's late in his career.

But give him the Perron contract. Offer him 6.5 per for two years.

Gives an older player insurance and comfort while they decide what to do next.

 

[odin1981]

Dylan Larkin after we get Austin Matthew's in UFA next year (not this year). But that's a shot at the moon.