Proposal: Red wings target for 2C

[dekelikekocur]

Agreed. But you can't also assume that you'll find every last piece in the draft. This front office has done a great job finding defensemen and complimentary scoring, but needs at least one first line sniper and another top six scorer at minimum. So unless they win the lottery next week, at some point they need to trade for a guy who can put 30-40 pucks in the net, because I don't see that player anywhere in their system.

I don't think we'll find every last piece we need in the draft, but till we know what we're drafting and to some degree a relatively decent assessment of those players, we don't know what we need and wasting assets/futures on players who won't be part of the long term just reeks of, "I want it now" which Yzerman has repeatedly indicated isn't the plan. We're already starting to see some progress in later round picks coming up, which any team that wants long term success and a meaningful pipeline needs to have pan out. I don't think Yzerman is going for the flash in the pan success that a lot of current teams seem to be focused on.

A lot of GMs don't have the level of job security that Yzerman has and because of that lack of job security don't have the leeway for the level of patience that Yzerman can/has exhibited in a rebuild.

I'd fully expect some cheap short term stop gap trades/signings this year, just like last. We won't be chasing any big fish and just looking to make sure the kids have a steady and stable environment to develop in.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I agree when talking generally, but I disagree about the timing. If we're trading top prospects or 1st rounders for guys that aren't gonna be part of our future core, that to me is the same thing as saying "we have our core pieces in place".
That's fine, if you feel like Larkin/Raymond/Kasper/Edvinsson/Seider/Cossa is a good enough core. It may be, but personally I'd like to take every swing (i.e. our top draft picks) at finding at least one more high-end forward piece to add to that group before I confidently start selling futures.

I think we can also debate how confident we are in the Wings absolutely not being in the bottom 10 of the standings any of the coming years. Sure, we can put protection on picks we trade away, but you don't want to end up in a situation like Ottawa who thought they were gonna be a contender and they traded away Zibanejad and Byram for a veteran who did nothing for them.

I am not looking to give away our "9th" overall pick this year. Our second 1st rounder, Boston's 1st next year and our stable of 2nds should be on the table, however, for a deal that genuinely makes sense for us given our competitive window. I would never suggest trading those assets for aging, stop-gap help and I honestly don't know who around here has suggested that. Aging stop-gaps can be acquired on the UFA market if that is your thing.

At this stage, however, Larkin is not getting any younger and we need to show more year over year growth as a team.

 

[Aussie91]

Feel like I’m in a totally different mindset than a lot of people. I disagree with trading high-end futures (1sts and top prospects) unless it’s for a long term core piece. Scheifele or Lindholm ain’t it. Doing those moves is improving the short term at great cost to the long-term (the thing that should matter most).

i see what your saying and i agree to a certain extent. my issue is if we just keep drafting and hoping, i think it's just as detrimental to the "re-build". you eventually need to compete and just waiting and hoping young guys will step up right away and contribute is just delaying the others progress a bit that have been in the system. you need the balance of veteran's that have been there and young guys. im not saying scheifele or lindholm are it, but thats two players that can help take you to the next step while the other key core young players develope along side and hopefully sooner than later playing meaningful and experience building playoff rounds. we are also not really drafting the "top talent" with our firsts recently and only going to be getting picks further from the top 5. yes seider seems to be an absolute steal and a great pick, raymond seems to be a really good pick, edvinsson looks well on his way aswell and kasper so far projects to be good. but with never having a top 3 pick to get a "guranteed prospect" has hurt.

 

[Aussie91]

my problem is and maybe it's just my thought process, is that detroit has only really had "complementary pieces" since we drafted Larkin. Yes we had our aging stars in Zetterberg and Datsyuk, but really since then we've platooned middle six players as top six and so on. We've never drafted really top end forward talent and have seemed to have struck gold with obviously seider and edvinsson. others like wallinder, raymond and kasper look to be projecting upwards to be "good effective" players, but realistically at this point nothing top end. these types of players will be good, but won't generally take us to the promise land. maybe they will, but i think we need to surround them with veterans that are still in their prime that are maybe higher end complementary players and hope some of these guys develop past their projections. the wings are in a terrible spot, we aren't good enough to be in playoffs but also aren't bad enough to get a top 3 pick. the draft position, barring an absolute steal in the draft will not get us to where we need to get in my opinion

 

[jkutswings]

I don't think we'll find every last piece we need in the draft, but till we know what we're drafting and to some degree a relatively decent assessment of those players, we don't know what we need and wasting assets/futures on players who won't be part of the long term just reeks of, "I want it now" which Yzerman has repeatedly indicated isn't the plan. We're already starting to see some progress in later round picks coming up, which any team that wants long term success and a meaningful pipeline needs to have pan out. I don't think Yzerman is going for the flash in the pan success that a lot of current teams seem to be focused on.

A lot of GMs don't have the level of job security that Yzerman has and because of that lack of job security don't have the leeway for the level of patience that Yzerman can/has exhibited in a rebuild.

I'd fully expect some cheap short term stop gap trades/signings this year, just like last. We won't be chasing any big fish and just looking to make sure the kids have a steady and stable environment to develop in.

I'm not suggesting we deal for a rental. I'm suggesting we deal for a stud under 30 that WILL be part of the long term. And yes, I realize that will require a boatload of assets. But Larkin can't keep carrying the offense by himself, and even if Raymond becomes a PPG winger, we need an additional Raymond. So unload some of the magic beans, make the playoffs now, and win a Cup in the next 5 years before all these talented kids turn into too many expensive contracts to keep together and Larkin is no longer good enough to be a key piece.

With 1-2 great additions, we are at the start of our window NOW (with Cossa arriving as the team goes from playoff participant to playoff favorite).

 

[dekelikekocur]

I'm not suggesting we deal for a rental. I'm suggesting we deal for a stud under 30 that WILL be part of the long term. And yes, I realize that will require a boatload of assets. But Larkin can't keep carrying the offense by himself, and even if Raymond becomes a PPG winger, we need an additional Raymond. So unload some of the magic beans, make the playoffs now, and win a Cup in the next 5 years before all these talented kids turn into too many expensive contracts to keep together and Larkin is no longer good enough to be a key piece.

With 1-2 great additions, we are at the start of our window NOW (with Cossa arriving as the team goes from playoff participant to playoff favorite).

Unless that is a typo, there's literally no reason to deal for anyone over 24 or 25. Larkin will be the "old man on the team" vet. We don't need more of those types as cap waste when the team becomes competitive unless we get said player for dirt cheap and on a dirt cheap contract.

Making the playoffs isn't the start of our window. I'd say we're 2 or 3 years from our window opening (window being based on the current young crop's ages). Teams windows aren't relative to their success, it's relative to the age range of their core. Hopefully as we enter our core/potential cores window we have success to align with it.

 

[jkutswings]

Unless that is a typo, there's literally no reason to deal for anyone over 24 or 25. Larkin will be the "old man on the team" vet. We don't need more of those types as cap waste when the team becomes competitive unless we get said player for dirt cheap and on a dirt cheap contract.

Making the playoffs isn't the start of our window. I'd say we're 2 or 3 years from our window opening (window being based on the current young crop's ages). Teams windows aren't relative to their success, it's relative to the age range of their core. Hopefully as we enter our core/potential cores window we have success to align with it.

We will have to agree to disagree then. I think we either win a Cup in the next 5-7 years or the window has closed and it starts over again. (Which means that high end talent up to 28 or 29 would still be fine.)

 

[dekelikekocur]

We will have to agree to disagree then. I think we either win a Cup in the next 5-7 years or the window has closed and it starts over again. (Which means that high end talent up to 28 or 29 would still be fine.)

Yzerman isn't building a flash in the pan team. His goal seems to be sustained success. Outside of the Chiarot signing, he's been pretty conservative on his trades/signings to stop gaps/change of scenery type trades. I don't think he's looking short term at all, imo this is his retirement job, he'll be here till he dies or the Illitches sell the team.

 

[Frk It]

Yzerman isn't building a flash in the pan team. His goal seems to be sustained success. Outside of the Chiarot signing, he's been pretty conservative on his trades/signings to stop gaps/change of scenery type trades. I don't think he's looking short term at all, imo this is his retirement job, he'll be here till he dies or the Illitches sell the team.

This is the first time we are in a spot where we can trade someone a 1st round pick and still have our own 1st round pick in that same draft.

We have not really had the assets to be able to make impactful trades until now. So let's see what happens over the next 6-12 months.

 

[Reddwit]

Any packages for those players will want Detroits first and Kasper and/or Ed. A mid first round pick and a project player is a nonstarter.

Impending UFAs don’t get 1sts + elite prospects.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I would never suggest trading those assets for aging, stop-gap help and I honestly don't know who around here has suggested that.

I don't necessarily make the big distinction between our 1sts and the Isles/Bruins' 1sts, but the thread is literally about trading some of our top assets for aging stopgaps:

should the Wings target someone like Mark Scheifele?

Maybe a trade involving NYI'S first round or Boston's 1st next year, a 2nd this year and a mixture of Rasmussen/Berggren/Zadina/Wallinder/Lombardi.

Another would be Elias Lindholm from Calgary

I am not looking to give away our "9th" overall pick this year. Our second 1st rounder, Boston's 1st next year and our stable of 2nds should be on the table, however, for a deal that genuinely makes sense for us given our competitive window.

The bolded is the key. Scheifele and Lindholm don't make sense for our competitive window imo. Picking up UFA stopgaps is one thing, they don't cost anything more than cap space. But trading futures is different.

 

[Aussie91]

I don't necessarily make the big distinction between our 1sts and the Isles/Bruins' 1sts, but the thread is literally about trading some of our top assets for aging stopgaps:





The bolded is the key. Scheifele and Lindholm don't make sense for our competitive window imo. Picking up UFA stopgaps is one thing, they don't cost anything more than cap space. But trading futures is different.

but at some point, collecting draft picks and hoping that these players will turn into something is the absolute wrong way to go about this. the wings have been doing so for the last 6-7 years. honestly, our drafting hasn't been the greatest in my opinion (partially the end of holland era) and we are now at a point where we will not be drafting high enough to get a star stud player and just hoping someone we draft exceeds potential.

Yzerman goes out and makes those trades he did to get those picks for one of 3 reasons. 1. uses them to draft players 2. uses those multitude of picks and bundles together to move up 3. uses the extra 1st's and 2nd's along with rostered or prospect players to bring in someone that can be a stop gap and help in the now. to me we are at the point that we need to bring in some better talent/proven commodity as we are almost to being a playoff team and are needing a couple pieces to get there (not contending obviously). playing in the wishy washy spot of just being outside of the playoffs and not bad enough for a top 5 pick is in my mind worse. we need to get the current young guys on the roster and the older core guys in the playoffs and into meaningful games prior to having all these "maybe good drafted players" come up in 2-5 years.

im not saying scheifele or lindholm are the right ones to target, it's just a thought based on contract situation/ where their current teams mindset could be at. i just think its time to use draft capital to actually improve the roster for the now as we have 5 picks in the first two rounds this year.

Look at what bertuzzi did in the playoffs this year. his first chance at it and he excelled. our current core needs to get to the playoffs to go through the trials and tribulation of what it's like to get there and have experience to help the next wave

i also disagree to getting stops gaps from ufa as the right way to go. you only have the choice of who's there and you get into a bidding war for them. is chiarot worth the length and dollar amount for his contract? i like copp and i think he can be a steal for us but at 500k more i would rather scheifele. also need to remember that seider and raymond are coming up for a new contract and will be eating combined probably 12-15m of cap space atleast so we wont have as much cap flexability going forward.

again only my thoughts which may or may not be the right one's. this was simply to see what others thought and only examples of players i thought could help

 

[Frk It]

I don't necessarily make the big distinction between our 1sts and the Isles/Bruins' 1sts, but the thread is literally about trading some of our top assets for aging stopgaps:





The bolded is the key. Scheifele and Lindholm don't make sense for our competitive window imo. Picking up UFA stopgaps is one thing, they don't cost anything more than cap space. But trading futures is different.

How are we going to get a team to trade us a good young player who isn’t going to hit free agency soon?

I’m all ears.

 

[Pavels Dog]

but at some point, collecting draft picks and hoping that these players will turn into something is the absolute wrong way to go about this. the wings have been doing so for the last 6-7 years. honestly, our drafting hasn't been the greatest in my opinion (partially the end of holland era) and we are now at a point where we will not be drafting high enough to get a star stud player and just hoping someone we draft exceeds potential.

Picks #9 and #17-18 may not guarantee us a star player, but if the 2023 draft ends up similar as the 2015 draft, it could be a Timo Meier+Kyle Connor/Thomas Chabot. Even in weaker drafts there's always really good players drafted at ~15-20.

How are we going to get a team to trade us a good young player who isn’t going to hit free agency soon?

I’m all ears.

Short answer: we likely won't, so the focus should be on drafting them

 

[Aussie91]

Picks #9 and #17-18 may not guarantee us a star player, but if the 2023 draft ends up similar as the 2015 draft, it could be a Timo Meier+Kyle Connor/Thomas Chabot. Even in weaker drafts there's always really good players drafted at ~15-20.


Short answer: we likely won't, so the focus should be on drafting them

i guess i don't hold out on the hope that this draft "could be one of the deepest in history" mentality. if we keep the picks i am hopeful obviously, but i just think this is a prime opportunity to try and help the now, but still having extra picks for the future. Either way that steve yzerman goes, im behind at this point and im just a couch GM giving my two cents

 

[sepster]

I don't see Yzerman doing anything to upgrade 2C until he is able to evaluate Copp after a healthy offseason and full training camp/preseason. Then, if he still isn't up to Yzerman's expectations, that's when it'll get addressed. Possibly, Kasper shows he deserves a shot by that point?

 

[Frk It]

Short answer: we likely won't, so the focus should be on drafting them

The odds of getting someone as good as Lindholm in the draft at 9 or 18 is pretty shit.

If they are actually attainable, I would definitely consider them. I don't think them being 27 or 28 is an issue.

As I alluded to in my earlier post... guys are only going to probably be available if teams dont want to pay them. Teams are only not going to want to pay someone if they are about to be a UFA in the relatively near future. You can only become a UFA in the relatively near future if you are 27/28 years old or about that.

I would love to trade for someone's 22/23 year old star player... but that is not really a thing.

 

[Winger98]

The odds of getting someone as good as Lindholm in the draft at 9 or 18 is pretty shit.

If they are actually attainable, I would definitely consider them. I don't think them being 27 or 28 is an issue.

As I alluded to in my earlier post... guys are only going to probably be available if teams dont want to pay them. Teams are only not going to want to pay someone if they are about to be a UFA in the relatively near future. You can only become a UFA in the relatively near future if you are 27/28 years old or about that.

I would love to trade for someone's 22/23 year old star player... but that is not really a thing.

This is going to be a bit devil's advocaty here, but if someone else doesn't want to pay them I have to wonder if we really want to, either. That's a bit different from a team just getting bit by the cap and having to let someone go. That said, I'm not against exploring moves but I have a really hard time judging value. I know it is unlikely we get a guy as good as Lindholm at #9, but I'm also not sure I want to deal that pick for either a year of Lindholm, or him at $7-9m for six to eight years at his age.

Also, I'm not sure how likely it is that Yzerman deals a 1st. In just two of his years from 11 to 18 did he not have a 1st, which tells me he hung onto them. I think we're more likely to see him draft kids and then deal them than to deal the pick.

I think Yzerman looks to deal but I don't think the cost/risk/reward equation is going to work out for us and we keep our 1st rounders. That's just my conservative guess, though.

 

[Frk It]

This is going to be a bit devil's advocaty here, but if someone else doesn't want to pay them I have to wonder if we really want to, either. That's a bit different from a team just getting bit by the cap and having to let someone go. That said, I'm not against exploring moves but I have a really hard time judging value. I know it is unlikely we get a guy as good as Lindholm at #9, but I'm also not sure I want to deal that pick for either a year of Lindholm, or him at $7-9m for six to eight years at his age.

Also, I'm not sure how likely it is that Yzerman deals a 1st. In just two of his years from 11 to 18 did he not have a 1st, which tells me he hung onto them. I think we're more likely to see him draft kids and then deal them than to deal the pick.

I think Yzerman looks to deal but I don't think the cost/risk/reward equation is going to work out for us and we keep our 1st rounders. That's just my conservative guess, though.

Holding onto your firsts when you already have Stamkos, Hedman, Kucheorov, etc and holding onto firsts when you are still looking for star players is an entirely different scenario.

I also don’t know if he ever had multiple firsts during his time in Tampa like he does in these next 2 drafts?

 

[DoMakc]

How are we going to get a team to trade us a good young player who isn’t going to hit free agency soon?

I’m all ears.

You pay more. I'd rather pay for an optimal fit, than making an attempt to patch a "hole" with somebody who seems to be available. Red Wings have a lot of picks, one of a better prospect pools in the league, so they should be able to meet the price

 

[Frk It]

You pay more. I'd rather pay for an optimal fit, than making an attempt to patch a "hole" with somebody who seems to be available. Red Wings have a lot of picks, one of a better prospect pools in the league, so they should be able to meet the price

What does an optimal fit look like for you?

I was just saying don’t rule out people that are actually available. Lindholm would be a pretty great fit for us IMO.

You could theoretically “make” someone available by putting together a package they can’t say no to. But how often do well established 21/22/23/24 year old players actually get traded?

 

[WingsToPick4th]

Keep 9OA and Draft Dvorksy/Moore (or win lottery and draft Bedard/Fantilli)
Trade 17+ a 2nd rounder for Debrincat sign 7.8x8
Sign RHD Mayfield/Severson 5x4
Sign RHD Gudas 3.5x3
Still have 2024 1st and Bostons 1st to use as draft capital or upgrade wingers.

next few years run:
Debricat - Larkin - Raymond
Perron/Mazur - Dvorksy/Fantilli - Kubalik
Copp - Kasper - Berggren
Ras - Veleno - Soderblom/Lombardi

Walman - Seider
Edvinsson - Mayfield
Wallinder - Gudas

Inject talent from 2023 2nd rounders or 2024 1sts down the road on their ELCs
This team makes the playoffs 100%

 

[Winger98]

Holding onto your firsts when you already have Stamkos, Hedman, Kucheorov, etc and holding onto firsts when you are still looking for star players is an entirely different scenario.

I also don’t know if he ever had multiple firsts during his time in Tampa like he does in these next 2 drafts?

the year they drafted Vasy.

It's a different situation, but I don't think it changes how Yzerman approaches team building. I think he is a fundamentally conservative GM who keeps a pretty hardline in what he believes value to be. I just don't think he will be able to get the value he wants for those picks. And I think that's because he'll be targeting players higher up the ladder than Lindholm.

I think it's more likely we see him package some picks to move up like he did last year.

 

[DoMakc]

What does an optimal fit look like for you?

I was just saying don’t rule out people that are actually available. Lindholm would be a pretty great fit for us IMO.

You could theoretically “make” someone available by putting together a package they can’t say no to. But how often do well established 21/22/23/24 year old players actually get traded?

I don't value Lindholm as high as you, in terms of offense, but regardless of valuation: He is going to be 29 next season and UFA afterwards. He is not an elite offensive player in his prime, which means his projection is not going to favourable for his 30+ age seasons. We don't "need" him next season, we can use him. By trading assets now you are kind of pot commited. And if you going to re-sign him, you are going to pay premium for questionable projection during seasons you also don't have a luxury of Seider and Raymond playing on ELC.

Kyle Connor is two years younger and 3 years left on very affordable contract.
Ehlers is two years younger and 2 years left on very good contract.
Dubois is 4 years younger.
DeBrincat is three years younger.
Konecny is three years younger with 2 years left on cheap contract.

Are they available? Maybe, some of them should be.

Leafs have some question to answer in 2024, maybe they want to address some of them already this summer.

Hell, I'd rather have Panarin for the next three years on that cap heat if Rangers want to overreact.

There are always options, you never know who will overreact over small sample.

 

[Frk It]

the year they drafted Vasy.

It's a different situation, but I don't think it changes how Yzerman approaches team building. I think he is a fundamentally conservative GM who keeps a pretty hardline in what he believes value to be. I just don't think he will be able to get the value he wants for those picks. And I think that's because he'll be targeting players higher up the ladder than Lindholm.

I think it's more likely we see him package some picks to move up like he did last year.

Do you think he would do a player for player trade, like he did with Drouin/Sergachev?

I have a hard time seeing this surplus of assets and this team that clearly needs more impactful pieces in the here and now, and thinking Yzerman isn't going to make a splash of any type. But we will see I guess.

Kyle Connor is two years younger and 3 years left on very affordable contract.
Ehlers is two years younger and 2 years left on very good contract.
Dubois is 4 years younger.
DeBrincat is three years younger.
Konecny is three years younger with 2 years left on cheap contract.

Are they available? Maybe, some of them should be.

Leafs have some question to answer in 2024, maybe they want to address some of them already this summer.

Hell, I'd rather have Panarin for the next three years on that cap heat if Rangers want to overreact.

I would be in favor of all these options. I can only hope we are exploring them.