Proposal: Red wings target for 2C

[Aussie91]

I don't value Lindholm as high as you, in terms of offense, but regardless of valuation: He is going to be 29 next season and UFA afterwards. He is not an elite offensive player in his prime, which means his projection is not going to favourable for his 30+ age seasons. We don't "need" him next season, we can use him. By trading assets now you are kind of pot commited. And if you going to re-sign him, you are going to pay premium for questionable projection during seasons you also don't have a luxury of Seider and Raymond playing on ELC.

Kyle Connor is two years younger and 3 years left on very affordable contract.
Ehlers is two years younger and 2 years left on very good contract.
Dubois is 4 years younger.
DeBrincat is three years younger.
Konecny is three years younger with 2 years left on cheap contract.

Are they available? Maybe, some of them should be.

Leafs have some question to answer in 2024, maybe they want to address some of them already this summer.

Hell, I'd rather have Panarin for the next three years on that cap heat if Rangers want to overreact.

There are always options, you never know who will overreact over small sample.

i don't mind any of your options thats mentioned. major problem for example: conners, ehlers, debrincat, konecny are better players than all our wingers, but that still doesn't address the issue of lacking center depth. maybe by adding a gamer winger like above helps ease that issue and copp flourishes with more support. but i look at those moves as just trying to add some where else and hope it eases the real issue. If you go after dubois, you all but say kasper will never be a center on this team and he has to shift to wing or trade him for a winger/ dman

Do you think he would do a player for player trade, like he did with Drouin/Sergachev?

I have a hard time seeing this surplus of assets and this team that clearly needs more impactful pieces in the here and now, and thinking Yzerman isn't going to make a splash of any type. But we will see I guess.


I would be in favor of all these options. I can only hope we are exploring them.

i agrees with all these assests, something for the now needs to be addressed

 

[Winger98]

Do you think he would do a player for player trade, like he did with Drouin/Sergachev?

I have a hard time seeing this surplus of assets and this team that clearly needs more impactful pieces in the here and now, and thinking Yzerman isn't going to make a splash of any type. But we will see I guess.


I would be in favor of all these options. I can only hope we are exploring them.

I think Yzerman seems to prefer those deals. I'm not sure we have the pieces that would grab someone, though.

To be clear, I think Yzerman will look to make moves. But if it's a big move, I think it will be a capital letter BIG move. Also, I don't think Debrincat is a big move, and I don't think Debrincat would cost a fortune to bring in if his unhappiness and refusal to sign are true.

 

[DoMakc]

i don't mind any of your options thats mentioned. major problem for example: conners, ehlers, debrincat, konecny are better players than all our wingers, but that still doesn't address the issue of lacking center depth. maybe by adding a gamer winger like above helps ease that issue and copp flourishes with more support. but i look at those moves as just trying to add some where else and hope it eases the real issue. If you go after dubois, you all but say kasper will never be a center on this team and he has to shift to wing or trade him for a winger/ dman

I disagree with a notion that Wings need center. They need offense first and foremost, they need more goals. You can win Cup with Andrew Copp as your second line center - he actually had quite an nice season for he his role and given his offseason. It's a question who he is playing with and who is playing ahead and below him in the line-up.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The odds of getting someone as good as Lindholm in the draft at 9 or 18 is pretty shit.

Be that as it may, having shit odds enough times is kind of what rebuilding is. Beating the odds a few times is what creates a successful rebuild.
The 2023 draft specifically seems like the wrong one to undervalue a #9 or #18 pick in tbh.

 

[Snuggs]

I disagree with a notion that Wings need center. They need offense first and foremost, they need more goals. You can win Cup with Andrew Copp as your second line center - he actually had quite an nice season for he his role and given his offseason. It's a question who he is playing with and who is playing ahead and below him in the line-up.

Every playoff team has a 2nd line center MUCH more capable than what Copp is. Totally disagree with this statement. The 2nd line center for the Red Wings almost needs to be as good as Larkin.

Or literally we just aren't on the same level as other teams, While also, needing the scoring you're talking about. (Possibly two birds with one stone if you go get a good enough Center).

I don't hate Copp. Think he helped this team more than people give him credit for, but if you wanna win Cups or a Cup. He can't be your 2nd best option at C.

 

[DoMakc]

Every playoff team has a 2nd line center MUCH more capable than what Copp is. Totally disagree with this statement. The 2nd line center for the Red Wings almost needs to be as good as Larkin.

Or literally we just aren't on the same level as other teams, While also, needing the scoring you're talking about. (Possibly two birds with one stone if you go get a good enough Center).

I don't hate Copp. Think he helped this team more than people give him credit for, but if you wanna win Cups or a Cup. He can't be your 2nd best option at C.

Like literally every playoff team? These players disagree with you:

Kotkaniemi/J.Staal
Bennett
Cirelli
Seguin
Danault
Stephanson/W.Karlsson - Stephanson is actually an example what happens when a middle of the road center is surrounded with good offensive players. and give them PP time.
Trochek
Compher
Gourde/Wennberg

More than half of playoff teams were dressing players who are comparable to Copp as their 2C.

Red Wings won their last Cup with Filppula as their 2 C. And I don't even remember who was Blackhawks 2C, nobody cared they had Hossa playing with him.

How many first line winger have Red WIngs currently? 0,5? I think it's more of priority to upgrade a position which lacking and easier to find an upgrade. And they also have Kasper waiting in the wings who should be capable to play at least on Copp level in 2 years.

 

[Frk It]

Be that as it may, having shit odds enough times is kind of what rebuilding is. Beating the odds a few times is what creates a successful rebuild.
The 2023 draft specifically seems like the wrong one to undervalue a #9 or #18 pick in tbh.

I would agree that if I was trading a 1st rounder for someone like Lindholm, ideally it would be our pick from Boston next year. And not one of our firsts this year.

I was just illustrating a point with the picks we had this year.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Be that as it may, having shit odds enough times is kind of what rebuilding is. Beating the odds a few times is what creates a successful rebuild.
The 2023 draft specifically seems like the wrong one to undervalue a #9 or #18 pick in tbh.

No. A legitimate NHL caliber C is so far beyond what you can expect from 9 and 18. I don’t care how much you want to hype up these 17,18,19 year old kids… the likelihood that the players you take at 9 and at 18 have Elias Lindholm’s career… is less than 25%. You take the chance because you can get a better player (low%) at a much better salary (high %) with more control.

But all things equal, Elias Lindholm is going to be better than a 9OA or an 18OA the vast majority of the time. Hell, probably better than half the time, he will be better than them combined

 

[RabidBadger]

More than half of playoff teams were dressing players who are comparable to Copp as their 2C.

Red Wings won their last Cup with Filppula as their 2 C. And I don't even remember who was Blackhawks 2C, nobody cared they had Hossa playing with him.

How many first line winger have Red WIngs currently? 0,5? I think it's more of priority to upgrade a position which lacking and easier to find an upgrade. And they also have Kasper waiting in the wings who should be capable to play at least on Copp level in 2 years.

I second that. If you can get a winger like Guadreau, prime Tarasenko, Kane (but without the trashy behavior), etc., it nullifies needing a star 2C. But I'll be pretty feckin' giddy if Kasper can be Larkin level AND we get a elite winger or 2.

 

[WF19]

I think Lindholm should be the top target if Yzerman is getting aggressive. Larkin and lindholm is a 1-2 punch that you can compete with.

That said, I'm skeptical of how aggressive Yzerman will be on the trade market. I kind of viewed the Hronek trade as a signal Yzerman is more focused on the next wave of young players, in which case, it probably makes sense to keep most of these 1st and 2nd round picks to bolster the next wave.

I think the argument can go either way, He did just re sign Larkin and shipped out his good buddy in Bert. I think Larkin is getting tired of losing and just when they got in the playoff picture for a brief moment Yzerman dumped guys. Wings still have plenty of cap space next year so I think there is a chance Yzerman makes some aggressive moves this year. It's been reporting that they want to bolster the goaltending, try to pry Swayman out of Boston or even offer sheet him because Boston cannot match. Husso and Swayman for a Tandem. Brandon Montour on d would be a nice addition and then go out and grab a true goal scorer. Finally I'd try to pry Kyle Connor out of Winnipeg. Had good chemistry with Copp knows Larkin as well and another Michigan boy.

Berggren Larkin Raymond
Connor Cop Perron
Kubalik (Kasper) Rasmussen

Something along those lines, on defense you'd have Seider, Edvinsson, Maata, Montour, as your core 4 and Husso/Swayman for a Tandem..

Fairly solid I'd say, still have Mazur, Lombardi, Johansson, Wallinder and Cossa as prospects with a higher ceiling and I'm sure I may be missing some as well as this years draft.

 

[Aussie91]

I think the argument can go either way, He did just re sign Larkin and shipped out his good buddy in Bert. I think Larkin is getting tired of losing and just when they got in the playoff picture for a brief moment Yzerman dumped guys. Wings still have plenty of cap space next year so I think there is a chance Yzerman makes some aggressive moves this year. It's been reporting that they want to bolster the goaltending, try to pry Swayman out of Boston or even offer sheet him because Boston cannot match. Husso and Swayman for a Tandem. Brandon Montour on d would be a nice addition and then go out and grab a true goal scorer. Finally I'd try to pry Kyle Connor out of Winnipeg. Had good chemistry with Copp knows Larkin as well and another Michigan boy.

Berggren Larkin Raymond
Connor Cop Perron
Kubalik (Kasper) Rasmussen

Something along those lines, on defense you'd have Seider, Edvinsson, Maata, Montour, as your core 4 and Husso/Swayman for a Tandem..

Fairly solid I'd say, still have Mazur, Lombardi, Johansson, Wallinder and Cossa as prospects with a higher ceiling and I'm sure I may be missing some as well as this years draft.

The problem here is that some people wouldn't want to give up the assets to grab scheifele, who is more than likely available to a certain extenct compared to Connor. connor is worth more and would be way harder to get from winnipeg and would just end up depleting more of "the prized future assests" that many have said they wouldn't part with.

if somehow we could like you descibed and didn't take as much as i think it would great. i also don't see montour going anywhere so thats null and void at this point.

 

[Run the Jewels]

My guess is we would have the same problem with Scheifele as we would have with Ryan O'Reilly: they are both guys who will likely be looking for one last big contract. If we were in contention right now and that center spot was the one missing piece then I think you go all in and sign one of those guys to that big contract that is going to cost you ~$50 million.

We are not there and will not be a true contender until 2024-25 or maybe even 2025-26. By that point both guys would be on a downward trajectory.

One thing you are seeing with these playoffs is the young teams are performing well. It may be a coincidence, but I am fine with continuing down the path of building through the draft and then acquiring a key piece through free agency when the time comes. We ain't there yet though.

 

[GoBoltz56]

I've seen some names thrown around like Ehlers, Conor, Debrincat etc. but all of those guys are wingers. Lindholm is the only C i've seen thrown out there, and apparently he rescinded his trade request. Let's hope an Eichel-like situation arises in the next few months and we can pounce. What other C possibilities are there?

 

[Detroit Knights]

I've seen some names thrown around like Ehlers, Conor, Debrincat etc. but all of those guys are wingers. Lindholm is the only C i've seen thrown out there, and apparently he rescinded his trade request. Let's hope an Eichel-like situation arises in the next few months and we can pounce. What other C possibilities are there?

JT Compher was also thrown out there. I'm not sold on Veleno and having Compher in the lineup for line 3, gives the option for Kasper to be centering line 2 with copp on his wing for support. If Kasper doesn't do well, then swap him with copp and it works.

4th line C would be Suter imo. But I loved our 4th line late in the year with czarnick and Luff. Dudes knew their role and played it with a smile. Helm and Glendening did the same, so did draper/maltby etc.

 

[jkutswings]

What other C possibilities are there?

It's a short list of centers with enough offense (or potential) that wouldn't be absolutely untouchable. But I would continue to kick tires on whether Petterson would leave Vancouver or whether Armstrong could be brainwashed into parting with Robert Thomas in St Louis. (I doubt both, but those are the type of home run swings I'd start with, then work downwards from there.)

Or if it moves to wingers, I start with guys like Connor, Keller, and Meier then work downwards. I don't value a guy like Nylander quite as much as the trio I listed, but if Florida knocks off Toronto, the Leafs' frustration seems as good a team as any to take advantage of.

 

[Detroit Knights]

It's a short list of centers with enough offense (or potential) that wouldn't be absolutely untouchable. But I would continue to kick tires on whether Petterson would leave Vancouver or whether Armstrong could be brainwashed into parting with Robert Thomas in St Louis. (I doubt both, but those are the type of home run swings I'd start with, then work downwards from there.)

Or if it moves to wingers, I start with guys like Connor, Keller, and Meier then work downwards. I don't value a guy like Nylander quite as much as the trio I listed, but if Florida knocks off Toronto, the Leafs' frustration seems as good a team as any to take advantage of.

It's very interesting how they just have never been able to just get it done. When the players won't take the discount and everyone is getting paid probably the right pay they should be getting, yet have no money leftover for a real supporting cast, seems tough. This year did feel different for them. And they gutted everything to do it. Would be absolutely crazy if they traded Marner/Mathews/Tavares to blow up the team and restart with insane assets. They'd probably end up doing better too.

 

[WF19]

I've seen some names thrown around like Ehlers, Conor, Debrincat etc. but all of those guys are wingers. Lindholm is the only C i've seen thrown out there, and apparently he rescinded his trade request. Let's hope an Eichel-like situation arises in the next few months and we can pounce. What other C possibilities are there?

Maybe we get a surprise with Kasper? Then we have Larkin, Kasper, Copp, Veleno and Ras as potential centers

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Maybe we get a surprise with Kasper? Then we have Larkin, Kasper, Copp, Veleno and Ras as potential centers

Why is there talk about Rasmussen as a center? He sucks at center. Ras is fine as a winger and should stick there from now on.

 

[Pavels Dog]

No. A legitimate NHL caliber C is so far beyond what you can expect from 9 and 18. I don’t care how much you want to hype up these 17,18,19 year old kids… the likelihood that the players you take at 9 and at 18 have Elias Lindholm’s career… is less than 25%. You take the chance because you can get a better player (low%) at a much better salary (high %) with more control.

But all things equal, Elias Lindholm is going to be better than a 9OA or an 18OA the vast majority of the time. Hell, probably better than half the time, he will be better than them combined

Marco Kasper has a decent chnace at having an Elias Lindholm type career. Honestly Lindholm is a ~60 point guy without superstar wingers.

 

[Reddwit]

I've seen some names thrown around like Ehlers, Conor, Debrincat etc. but all of those guys are wingers. Lindholm is the only C i've seen thrown out there, and apparently he rescinded his trade request. Let's hope an Eichel-like situation arises in the next few months and we can pounce. What other C possibilities are there?

I’m not sure Lindholm himself ever requested a trade. I think he’s getting grouped in with those who *did* request trades, but the beat on Lindholm was that he was non-committal when approached about contract negotiations. That could change with the Sutter departure, but I think Lindholm being non-committal is about more than just Sutter. Guys don’t seem to like to stick around in Calgary/Canada for too long, and I can’t see Lindholm looking at Calgary’s near future and finding it appealing. I think he’d basically have to fall in love with the new coach to sign his biggest contract with Calgary and I just don’t see that happening.

 

[GoBoltz56]

It's a short list of centers with enough offense (or potential) that wouldn't be absolutely untouchable. But I would continue to kick tires on whether Petterson would leave Vancouver or whether Armstrong could be brainwashed into parting with Robert Thomas in St Louis. (I doubt both, but those are the type of home run swings I'd start with, then work downwards from there.)

Or if it moves to wingers, I start with guys like Connor, Keller, and Meier then work downwards. I don't value a guy like Nylander quite as much as the trio I listed, but if Florida knocks off Toronto, the Leafs' frustration seems as good a team as any to take advantage of.

Yeah Petterson was one I was wondering about. Didn't think about St. Louis, though I guess they could blow it up.

 

[Detroit Knights]

Why is there talk about Rasmussen as a center? He sucks at center. Ras is fine as a winger and should stick there from now on.

he is so much better as a winger. talk about him being center is ludicrous at this point

It's a short list of centers with enough offense (or potential) that wouldn't be absolutely untouchable. But I would continue to kick tires on whether Petterson would leave Vancouver or whether Armstrong could be brainwashed into parting with Robert Thomas in St Louis. (I doubt both, but those are the type of home run swings I'd start with, then work downwards from there.)

Or if it moves to wingers, I start with guys like Connor, Keller, and Meier then work downwards. I don't value a guy like Nylander quite as much as the trio I listed, but if Florida knocks off Toronto, the Leafs' frustration seems as good a team as any to take advantage of.

I would send our BOS 1 rd pick ++ for robert thomas right now, no questions asked. What else would need to be added because there is a lot i would part with to get him.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Marco Kasper has a decent chnace at having an Elias Lindholm type career. Honestly Lindholm is a ~60 point guy without superstar wingers.

You'd say that Kasper is comfortably a 75% chance of succeeding? Elias Lindholm has a 100% chance of having an Elias Lindholm type of career. And Kasper is looking like a huge success at the 8th slot. I mean, he's the exception for what you're getting from an 8OA, not the rule.

 

[norrisnick]

Marco Kasper has a decent chnace at having an Elias Lindholm type career. Honestly Lindholm is a ~60 point guy without superstar wingers.

That's a good 2C.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I’m not sure Lindholm himself ever requested a trade. I think he’s getting grouped in with those who *did* request trades, but the beat on Lindholm was that he was non-committal when approached about contract negotiations. That could change with the Sutter departure, but I think Lindholm being non-committal is about more than just Sutter. Guys don’t seem to like to stick around in Calgary/Canada for too long, and I can’t see Lindholm looking at Calgary’s near future and finding it appealing. I think he’d basically have to fall in love with the new coach to sign his biggest contract with Calgary and I just don’t see that happening.

Yeah, I think it's safe to assume that Calgary isn't going to sell like we had originally hoped. Firing Sutter might be what fixes that team and gets them into the playoffs next season.