Tribute Rasmus Sandin Discussion Thread

[Bomber0104]

Elite?

That's your bar?

I didn't realize the Leafs limit their use of 1st round picks for undersized, average to below-average upside defencemen?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

How many sub-6 foot, Charmin-soft defencemen currently occupy elite status in the league?

Or ever?

Who said he has to be elite. That kid takes a hit to make a play some think maybe a little too much. He’s not scared of physical play as much as he should be actually. Lots of good defenses with players just like him on them

 

[Bomber0104]

Who said he has to be elite. That kid takes a hit to make a play some think maybe a little too much. He’s not scared of physical play as much as he should be actually. Lots of good defenses with players just like him on them

I'm the type of guy that doesn't like watching my defenceman's face getting pasted into the boards by the opposing team's forward, at all.

It should be the other way around.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I'm the type of guy that doesn't like watching my defenceman's face getting pasted into the boards by the opposing team's forward, at all.

It should be the other way around.

Oh i agree ha

 

[Menzinger]

Who said he has to be elite. That kid takes a hit to make a play some think maybe a little too much. He’s not scared of physical play as much as he should be actually. Lots of good defenses with players just like him on them

Apparently Polak 2.0 is the only acceptable development path for a young d man

 

[Subway Schenn]

I didn't realize the Leafs limit their use of 1st round picks for undersized, average to below-average upside defencemen?

I thought this was a discussion about Rasmus Sandin?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I'm the type of guy that doesn't like watching my defenceman's face getting pasted into the boards by the opposing team's forward, at all.

It should be the other way around.

Actually if you watch him play with Marlies you can see his core strength and balance is truly elite. And it is generally da big boys who try to paste him who are on their *ss on ice. Da kid has big b*lls and can take it better than anyone else in org.

 

[Papi 4 Hart]

Actually if you watch him play with Marlies you can see his core strength and balance is truly elite. And it is generally da big boys who try to paste him who are on their *ss on ice. Da kid has big b*lls and can take it better than anyone else in org.

My biggest surprise from Sandin was his willingness to throw the body. He doesn't do it pointlessly but he is great at picking his spots and stepping up on guys with their heads down to stop the play.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

My biggest surprise from Sandin was his willingness to throw the body. He doesn't do it pointlessly but he is great at picking his spots and stepping up on guys with their heads down to stop the play.

I think Barrie will come out for BJ's and insert Sandin in ... or maybe barrie will be 6th or 7th if we go 11 forwards

 

[supermann_98]

I’m genuinely curious to see how/if Sandin has improved over when we last saw him play.

Remember, the time between when the league was put on hold until now is almost the same if not longer than a typical summer would be for most rookies going into their second years. Maybe he plays more like a sophomore now instead of as a rookie, maybe his top end speed and strength is noticeably better (which were to me His biggest weaknesses).

All dependant of course on how well he used that time off, as most gyms and rinks were shut down during that same stretch of time.

 

[biotk]

Responding to this here as the thread is closed.
@meefer

*I was unaware of Kyle's comment that Sandin and Liljegren were not going to play. I agree that replacement level players can be easily acquired. I mentor is a great thing to have.
*I can't really comment on 'Sandin's game'. My knowledge of him prior to playing with the Leafs is only based on what I read. I don't follow the Marlies from where I live. That said, would I be correct in saying that those you listed, Schmaltz, Gravel, Harpur etc, did not have successful seasons with the Marlies and that given the dogfight the Leafs were in to make the playoffs, Sandin (2nd stint) was the obvious choice to call up?

Sandin was the obvious choice with the Leafs' being in a bad spot in the playoffs race. However, good developing teams put the development of their top prospects first. It the responsibility of the team to do what is right for the developing player (remember they have all the power in this relationship at this point in time as to where and when a player plays and that makes it all the more important for them to act responsibly as the player's advocate). It is not the responsibility of the developing player to harm his own development to bail out a team of drastically underachieving multimillionaires. Dubas has talked about this before as well. Schmaltz and Harpur were not having good seasons, but that is what they were brought here for and the the team could have scooped up a replacement level D for almost nothing from somewhere like they did with Rosen at the deadline.

If memory serves, Sandin was used after both Rielly and Muzzin were on the shelf. A high danger move, to be sure, if you are looking to put the kid into a safe position for success.
*While a D partner the opposite of Barrie would be ideal (thinking Van with Hughes and Tanev) we haven't had that type of mentor since Hainsey for Rielly, Mo of course having far more experience than Rasmus. It's the most glaring hole in the Leafs arsenal and neither Lou nor Kyle adequately addressed this need.
*I appreciate the comparisons to Carlson and the others, I'm not sure I have the confidence you do in seeing them as comparable. In Carlo and Carlson you have two D who have much larger frames to help insulate them from the demands of the game as well as being integrated with far more mature D corps. In Hughes and Makar you're asking to compare Sandin with two of the more dynamic young D to enter the game in many a year, a large ask. Boqvist, I've not seen play, but he and Girard might be the closest?

Boqvist and Girard are no doubt closest. But Sandin also has put up unreal numbers and performances in the AHL and the WJC. We will never know how he compares to those other young D unless and until he is put with a proper partner. And yes, while some of those D like Carlson and Carlo were much more physically developed when they got their start that makes it all the more absurd that the Leafs are trying to integrate a young D who needs the supports that come with a proper partner far more than Carlson and Carlo did, and yet Sandin is the one who is left on his own here. The same goes for Dermott.

You've put forward a persuasive case. I'd earlier suggested seeing Sandin put in before Marincin. You've changed my mind. I don't wish to see his confidence blown, and that is a worry, as you've outlined. However, I'm hopeful that you're initial comment about 'ruining?' (my memory here may be faulty) his development may be a touch premature. Sandin and Liljegren both deserve stable partners to work with if they are going to join the Leafs next year. How that shakes out, time will tell. Enjoy the game tonight.

I think that the Leafs' have done a bad job developing him (unlike the Marlies who put him with LoVerde his rookie year and gave him a bigger and bigger role, and Sweden at the WJCs who gave him every opportunity to shine).

I don't think that the Leafs' have ruined him yet. I do think that they will ruin his development though - 100% if they keep him and don't change what they have been doing. I hope that they trade him as Chicago traded Joki after sending him down the AHL during the second half of his rookie season.

But my thinking when it comes to development is inline with others. Take the views of this future GM:

"I think that for us, it runs two-fold. We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY (emphasis by the speaker) when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time."

Sandin was called up in the first two years of his entry-level contract. He played in 2 of the Leafs' last 4 regular season games. He didn't play in the exhibition. And now has not played in any of the three playoff games. So 2 of the last 8 games, which is a far cry from "all the time". And many, myself included, don't think that he will be on the team next year, but instead on the Marlies. Couldn't have done more to f*** up the prospect if they tried.

Again that future GM continued:

"We don't want players going up and then coming down. We saw last year with Stuart Percy and Sam Carrick, they go up, and they come back down, and it really rattles the players' confidence. Even though it's a joyful experience to play your first NHL game, to make the team and get recalled, it gets your psyche out of order a little bit.

And I think that's on us, it's not on the players. We have to be the ones making sure we're doing what's right by the players."

This is 100% on Dubas. Hopefully he will do what is right by the player, stop harming his development and trade to a team that will develop him responsibly.

 

[meefer]

Responding to this here as the thread is closed.
@meefer



Sandin was the obvious choice with the Leafs' being in a bad spot in the playoffs race. However, good developing teams put the development of their top prospects first. It the responsibility of the team to do what is right for the developing player (remember they have all the power in this relationship at this point in time as to where and when a player plays and that makes it all the more important for them to act responsibly as the player's advocate). It is not the responsibility of the developing player to harm his own development to bail out a team of drastically underachieving multimillionaires. Dubas has talked about this before as well. Schmaltz and Harpur were not having good seasons, but that is what they were brought here for and the the team could have scooped up a replacement level D for almost nothing from somewhere like they did with Rosen at the deadline.



Boqvist and Girard are no doubt closest. But Sandin also has put up unreal numbers and performances in the AHL and the WJC. We will never know how he compares to those other young D unless and until he is put with a proper partner. And yes, while some of those D like Carlson and Carlo were much more physically developed when they got their start that makes it all the more absurd that the Leafs are trying to integrate a young D who needs the supports that come with a proper partner far more than Carlson and Carlo did, and yet Sandin is the one who is left on his own here. The same goes for Dermott.



I think that the Leafs' have done a bad job developing him (unlike the Marlies who put him with LoVerde his rookie year and gave him a bigger and bigger role, and Sweden at the WJCs who gave him every opportunity to shine).

I don't think that the Leafs' have ruined him yet. I do think that they will ruin his development though - 100% if they keep him and don't change what they have been doing. I hope that they trade him as Chicago traded Joki after sending him down the AHL during the second half of his rookie season.

But my thinking when it comes to development is inline with others. Take the views of this future GM:

"I think that for us, it runs two-fold. We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY (emphasis by the speaker) when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time."

Sandin was called up in the first two years of his entry-level contract. He played in 2 of the Leafs' last 4 regular season games. He didn't play in the exhibition. And now has not played in any of the three playoff games. So 2 of the last 8 games, which is a far cry from "all the time". And many, myself included, don't think that he will be on the team next year, but instead on the Marlies. Couldn't have done more to f*** up the prospect if they tried.

Again that future GM continued:

"We don't want players going up and then coming down. We saw last year with Stuart Percy and Sam Carrick, they go up, and they come back down, and it really rattles the players' confidence. Even though it's a joyful experience to play your first NHL game, to make the team and get recalled, it gets your psyche out of order a little bit.

And I think that's on us, it's not on the players. We have to be the ones making sure we're doing what's right by the players."

This is 100% on Dubas. Hopefully he will do what is right by the player, stop harming his development and trade to a team that will develop him responsibly.

I appreciate you taking the time for the in-depth answers. You've given me something to chew on. As we're down by 1 in the 4th game as I write this, there might be a longer off season than hoped for the Leafs to reconsider their actions, or better address their needs to help their young D players. Cheers.

 

[hostilebynature]

I'm surprised this hasn't already been bumped?

 

[Hockey Crazy]

I'm surprised this hasn't already been bumped?

He's been really impressive so far. These guys coming up will be very important to our cap situation.

 

[Atomos2]

He looks terrific. Just spectacular. He was the best or second best defenceman on the ice tonight

 

[Orfieus]

I think the only thing that might keep him from top2 Dman is his foot speed, the guy simply isn't that fast and got out skated to the puck a few times tonight

I love his decision making and his stretch passes, he will probably play really well with Marner and Nylander

 

[IPS]

Highest iq defensemwn on the team.

 

[djdev]

Highest iq defensemwn on the team.

you are really selling tj brodie short.

 

[klmdg]

I think the only thing that might keep him from top2 Dman is his foot speed, the guy simply isn't that fast and got out skated to the puck a few times tonight

I love his decision making and his stretch passes, he will probably play really well with Marner and Nylander

Not concerned in the least about his foot speed

I would easily take him over the great skating, low IQ, PP QB we currently have, who lets guys get position on him all the time and traps himself endlessly with bad pinches

His willingness to move his feet on the PP, and his quickness in execution throughout the game, created numerous problems for the Jets tonight

On top of that, he used his body to break up more plays tonight than Mo has in the past month

 

[Menzinger]

Making a strong case to stay in the lineup

 

[ponder]

Making a strong case to stay in the lineup

If Bogo is out a couple weeks, it’a a great time to compare Sandin and Dermott. When we’re 100% healthy, I think Bogo plays with one of Sandin/Dermott, but not sure which - it’s really close. Sandin is better offensively and smarter, but Dermott is faster and more experienced.

If Keefe thinks they’re tied though, he should play Sandin. Dermott is very likely going to Seattle, while Sandin should be a staple of our D next year, all else being equal I’d give Sandin the experience.

 

[stickty111]

He has earned some more time to see where he factors in. Good game again.

 

[Acesup]

Sandin is Riely replacement I hope!

 

[CapspaceKiller]

the next TJ brodie, really high iq for a young man

 

[123offtheglass]

Really has to work on his footspeed and power/strength, for a guy so small he plays the game well physically; love his ability to step up on guys in the neutral zone early so if he adds some footspeed, strength/power he's going to become that much more effective.

I think he & Niemela would make a great pair in the future; Kokkonen - Liljegren maybe even becoming a good shutdown pair if Lily can continue to improve his defensive game, maybe add some more strength/power to his already solid skating ability.