Ranking Teams Prospects

[Isaac Nootin]

You need to stop resorting to sophism to prove a point. Socrates is rolling in his grave.

So you never made the claim Juulsen ranked the Habs 4th best prospect by YOU and the Habs board, was potentially a Top 30 prospect?

Or did your prospect rankings conveniently change again this week?

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Hes certainly a top 50 prospect right now, if not top 30.

Go get the quote, because thats not exactly what was said, was it?

As I was saying....

 

[MyBudJT]

Possibly, they are close. Depends on who you consider a prospect i.e. Dermott, Kapanen, Johnsson etc.

I’m counting all Calder eligible players...

No, that’s not realistic at all. That would be like half your farm making it up full time. That’s nuts. If you get 5 of your current farm up to being full time nhlers you did very well.

Leafs have roughly 35 prospects in their system. I define prospects that are Calder eligible.

Good bets:
Liljegren
Johnsson
Rosen
Sandin
Sparks
Grundstrom
Ozhiganov
Let’s say 4-5/7 of these prospects make the NHL...

We still have another 15-20 prospects with potential NHL upside, and it’s not inconceivable that 3-5 of the rest of our pool make the NHL with names like Korshlov, Will, Rasanen, Durzi, Bracco, rasanen, Engval etc... honestly, our prospect pool is just as deep (not to get confused with talented with top end bluechippers) as it’s ever been and we just graduated Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Hyman, Brown, Kapanen, Dermott, Bergman and Zaitsev

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Some homerism? Habs are closer to 26 than 6, IMO.

Obviously, this makes a lot of sense.

Honestly, I'm almost afraid to ask where you rank the Habs prospect group as a whole.

*edit* - Nevermind, I just read a post where you rank the Habs only clearly behind Buffalo and Carolina

 

[Mrb1p]

Honestly, I'm almost afraid to ask where you rank the Habs prospect group as a whole.

*edit* - Nevermind, I just read a post where you rank the Habs only clearly behind Buffalo and Carolina

Again, instead of trying to ridicule my argument, try to make one for yourself. This is how adults do. Looking forward to it, as I love discussing hockey, especially prospects, as I've poured so many hours of my life into it this last year.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Again, instead of trying to ridicule my argument, try to make one for yourself. This is how adults do. Looking forward to it, as I love discussing hockey, especially prospects, as I've poured so many hours of my life into it this last year.

I already listed my reasons earlier in the thread. Overall top tier talent and depth are the main issues.

I'd honestly like to hear why you think the Habs have the 3rd best prospect pool in the NHL. Genuinely asking.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

I’m counting all Calder eligible players...


Leafs have roughly 35 prospects in their system. I define prospects that are Calder eligible.

Good bets:
Liljegren
Johnsson
Rosen
Sandin
Sparks
Grundstrom
Ozhiganov
Let’s say 4-5/7 of these prospects make the NHL...

We still have another 15-20 prospects with potential NHL upside, and it’s not inconceivable that 3-5 of the rest of our pool make the NHL with names like Korshlov, Will, Rasanen, Durzi, Bracco, rasanen, Engval etc... honestly, our prospect pool is just as deep (not to get confused with talented with top end bluechippers) as it’s ever been and we just graduated Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Hyman, Brown, Kapanen, Dermott, Bergman and Zaitsev

A little hard to take this seriously when 3 of the 7 you listed in Ozi, Sparks and Rosen will be 26, 25 and 24 respectively when the season starts.

 

[MyBudJT]

A little hard to take this seriously when 3 of the 7 you listed in Ozi, Sparks and Rosen will be 26, 25 and 24 respectively when the season starts.

Why does that matter?

 

[sharks9]

Montreal has a poor group of prospects, so what exactly doesn't make sense.

They have zero high end prospects and no depth.

They were a consensus bottom 3 prospect pool last year. Drafting Kotkaniemi doesn't change it that much.

They fall somewhere around 20-25, IMO.

That's crazy, there's no way Montreal is lower than 15th at the very worst and is more in the 7-12 range.

And in case you didn't notice, Montreal did have more than just 1 pick in this year's draft so players other than Kotkaniemi improved our overall ranking

 

[Isaac Nootin]

That's crazy, there's no way Montreal is lower than 15th at the very worst and is more in the 7-12 range.

And in case you didn't notice, Montreal did have more than just 1 pick in this year's draft so players other than Kotkaniemi improved our overall ranking

Detroit
NYI
NYR
Colorado
Buffalo
Carolina
Vancouver
St. Louis
Arizona
Ottawa
Boston
Florida
Dallas
Calgary
Minnesota
Tampa
Winnipeg

That's a quick 15 to 17 teams off the top of my head. Make your case for Montreal being better than any/multiple.

 

[Hfbsux]

Just on top of my head, I don't see Winnipeg and Boston having a better prospect pool than Montreal. Both team have great young players who don't consider as prospect anymore (Connor, Roslovic, McAvoy, DeBrusk). Montreal has really good depth, I consider Cale Fleury a really good prospect and he is #8 on the habs board list:

1. Jesperi Kotkaniemi (C)
2. Ryan Poehling (C)
3. Noah Juulsen (D)
4. Jesse Ylönen (RW)
5. Josh Brook (D)
6. Cayden Primeau (G)
7. Jacob Olofsson (F)
8. Cale Fleury (D)
9. Jake Evans (C/RW)
10. Charlie Lindgren (G)
11. Joni Ikonen (C/RW)
12. Alexander S. Romanov (D)

 

[Isaac Nootin]

1. Jesperi Kotkaniemi (C)
2. Ryan Poehling (C)
3. Noah Juulsen (D)
4. Jesse Ylönen (RW)
5. Josh Brook (D)
6. Cayden Primeau (G)
7. Jacob Olofsson (F)
8. Cale Fleury (D)
9. Jake Evans (C/RW)
10. Charlie Lindgren (G)
11. Joni Ikonen (C/RW)
12. Alexander S. Romanov (D)

Honestly, that's a pretty poor prospect group, especially when you consider the Habs current state. I don't see how anyone could possibly rank that Top 3.

 

[Leopain]

Honestly, that's a pretty poor prospect group, especially when you consider the Habs current state. I don't see how anyone could possibly rank that Top 3.

Obviously not top 3, but of the group you mention, I would take the Habs prospects before Calgary, Minnesota, Winnipeg, Tampa, Florida and Boston easily.

That would put them at 12 and I think that's fair.

 

[Mrb1p]

I already listed my reasons earlier in the thread. Overall top tier talent and depth are the main issues.

I'd honestly like to hear why you think the Habs have the 3rd best prospect pool in the NHL. Genuinely asking.

Here's the full quote, because once again, youre not being honest and trying to make me look worse than I am.

I can see the argument for NYR, NYI, Dallas, Colorado and Detroit.

Personally, id have them behind Carolina, Buffalo and id need to evaluate long and hard for the others listed above to know which one Id rank ahead, but then again Im lower than most on Heiskanen, Hughes and Ep

Anyhow, heres my ranking

Dahlin
Svechnikov
Heiskanen
Necas
Mittlestatd
Pettersson
Boqvist
Makar
Kotkaniemi

I don't buy that the Habs don't have good top end, how can that be if they have the 9th best prospect in the league (And at worst, because HF is worst case scenario as a Habs fan, 15th.)

Now, theres teams like the Rangers with Kravtsov and Chytil, Vancouver with Pettersson and Hughes (Even though I like them a lot less than the consensus.), Chicago with Boqvist and Jokiharju that obviously have more top end. I think I'd trade Kotkaniemi and the next ranking prospect on the Habs pool for all of them, but the strength of the Habs prospect pool really shines when you consider the rest. Its not a stretch to think a pool with players picked with those picks: 3, 25, 26, 26, 35, 38, 56, 56, 58, 66, 68, 70, 71, over the last five drafts is good. Even more so when you add late round steals like Mete, Primeau, Evans, Fleury, Fonstad, Vejdemo and McShane to the list, plus Lindgren as a UFA signing.

How many teams have four defenders more valuable than Juulsen, Mete, Fleury and Brook ? I'd say:
Buffalo (Dahlin, Guhle... )
Chicago (Boqvist, Jokiharju, Beaudin, Krys/Mitchell)
Colorado (Makar, Timmins, Mironov, Zurhavlyov) (Makar and Timmins alone.)
Dallas (Heiskanen.... Not much else.)
Detroit (Cholowski, Hronek, McIsaac, Regula)
NJ (Smith, Bernad, Walsh...)
NYI (Dobson, Wilde, Salo, Aho...)
NYR (Lundkvist, Miller, Hajek, Ragnarsson, Day)
Toronto (Liljregren, Durzi, Sandin, Kral, Greenway.)
Vancouver (Hughes, Woo, Utunen, Juolevi) (On Hughes alone..)
Washington (Alexeyev, Fehervary, Johansen.)

With these being close:
Calgary (Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington
Tampa (Foote, Masin, Thomas)
Vegas (Brannstrom, Hague, Demin

Best case D pool ? 11th, worst 14th. (And thats not even mentioning guys like Romanov, Tyszka, Harris, Walford.

Same exercise, but for centers more valuable than Kotkaniemi, Poehling, Oloffson, Hillis, Vejdemo, Ikonen, Bitten and Evans:
Buffalo (Mitts, Pekar, Davidsson, Asplund, Olofsson)
Carolina (Necas, Drury, Kuokkanen.)
LAK (Vilardi, JAD, Kupari, Thomas, Dudas.)
NYR (Chytil, Andersson, Howden)
Vancouver (Pettersson, Madden, Gaudette)

With these being close, but lacking a true blue chipper to challenge Kotkaniemi
Philly (Obrien, Rubstov, Westfalt)
St Louis (Thomas, Kostin, Kyrou,
Ottawa (Bowers, Brown, Batherson, Gruden, Chlapik)

Best case: 5th, worst case (But I don't think theres an actual case here, unless you really love Thomas) 8th.

I'd do the same thing for wingers, but the Habs have little depth and wing, I'd suspect they'd rank closer to 20 than 10, Ylonen, Fonstad and Scherbak are three really nice pieces to me, but I am aware teams have a lot of similar prospect down the pipe and that this is not a strength for the Habs.

I'd also do the same thing for goalies, but I can't be bothered to watch goalies, I hate scouting them and I don't know much about them, I know Primeau, Lindgren and McNiven are good prospects but I know theres better, Id say theyre middle of the pack (Primeau got voted 15th best goalie prospect on the poll board, but thats low IMO, considering he has better stats than Oettinger, who went 7.

Id say, positionally, the Habs have a top 5 center pool, top 15ish D pool and top 10 goalie pool, with a 20/25 winger pool, if i average this, we get about 12th, and thats probably with a low winger ranking.

It is a great prospect pool, not anything near 20-25 like you've hinted at.

 

[Critical13]

Just on top of my head, I don't see Winnipeg and Boston having a better prospect pool than Montreal. Both team have great young players who don't consider as prospect anymore (Connor, Roslovic, McAvoy, DeBrusk). Montreal has really good depth, I consider Cale Fleury a really good prospect and he is #8 on the habs board list:

1. Jesperi Kotkaniemi (C)
2. Ryan Poehling (C)
3. Noah Juulsen (D)
4. Jesse Ylönen (RW)
5. Josh Brook (D)
6. Cayden Primeau (G)
7. Jacob Olofsson (F)
8. Cale Fleury (D)
9. Jake Evans (C/RW)
10. Charlie Lindgren (G)
11. Joni Ikonen (C/RW)
12. Alexander S. Romanov (D)

Honestly, that's a pretty poor prospect group, especially when you consider the Habs current state. I don't see how anyone could possibly rank that Top 3.

To me it's not bad, and in the top 12-15. Considering they just embraced rebuild this year, that's reasonable. One more awful year and suddenly you have 2 blue chippers, and you rocket up the charts. Kotk could surprise us as well, ala Petterssen.

 

[sharks9]

Detroit
NYI
NYR
Colorado
Buffalo
Carolina
Vancouver
St. Louis
Arizona
Ottawa
Boston
Florida
Dallas
Calgary
Minnesota
Tampa
Winnipeg

That's a quick 15 to 17 teams off the top of my head. Make your case for Montreal being better than any/multiple.

Montreal's better or equal to all of the teams in bold, and significantly better than some of them like Winnipeg and Minnesota. So there's about 7 teams better than us.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Obviously not top 3, but of the group you mention, I would take the Habs prospects before Calgary, Minnesota, Winnipeg, Tampa, Florida and Boston easily.

That would put them at 12 and I think that's fair.

Winnipeg I can possibly see an argument for since they graduated so many.

Tampa, Boston, Minnesota, Calgary and Florida, no chance. Possibly more as well as my list was put together off the top of my head.

The fact I see some Hab posters calling it a Top 3-7 pool is simply delusional.

 

[Fantomas]

Isaac is bit harsh maybe, but generally I think he's right. This is a not a good prospect group, middling perhaps, and Kotkaniemi was a reach who has a lot to prove.

 

[Hfbsux]

Honestly, that's a pretty poor prospect group, especially when you consider the Habs current state. I don't see how anyone could possibly rank that Top 3.

Well, I'm just curious to know why you rank Boston and Winnipeg's group better than this one. I'm sure I could of name of few other team, but those 2 popped out.

 

[Mrb1p]

Winnipeg I can possibly see an argument for since they graduated so many.

Tampa, Boston, Minnesota, Calgary and Florida, no chance. Possibly more as well as my list was put together off the top of my head.

The fact I see some Hab posters calling it a Top 3-7 pool is simply delusional.

Again, you're not supporting any of your claims.

 

[Mrb1p]

Isaac is bit harsh maybe, but generally I think he's right. This is a not a good prospect group, middling perhaps, and Kotkaniemi was a reach who has a lot to prove.

Kotkaniemi was a reach, a real one... Like TWO SPOTS HIGHER THAN WHERE BOBBY MACK RANKED HIM...

Again, why is it middling ?

 

[LarKing]

I’m counting all Calder eligible players...


Leafs have roughly 35 prospects in their system. I define prospects that are Calder eligible.

Good bets:
Liljegren
Johnsson
Rosen
Sandin
Sparks
Grundstrom
Ozhiganov
Let’s say 4-5/7 of these prospects make the NHL...

We still have another 15-20 prospects with potential NHL upside, and it’s not inconceivable that 3-5 of the rest of our pool make the NHL with names like Korshlov, Will, Rasanen, Durzi, Bracco, rasanen, Engval etc... honestly, our prospect pool is just as deep (not to get confused with talented with top end bluechippers) as it’s ever been and we just graduated Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Hyman, Brown, Kapanen, Dermott, Bergman and Zaitsev

Idk man we will see. When you say full-time nhlers I’m thinking like at least 5 seasons with 50+ games. Not a guy who comes up and gets a few games here and there but never really sticks in the league. Unfortunately that is what happens to most prospects.

 

[LarKing]

Kotkaniemi was a reach, a real one... Like TWO SPOTS HIGHER THAN WHERE BOBBY MACK RANKED HIM...

Again, why is it middling ?

It wasn’t necessarily the number of spots, it was moreso they dropped themselves a tier basically by grabbing him rather than Zadina. Even Hughes and a few others were ahead of him for me. I guess I kinda get it that they needed a center but drafting for position is pretty universally considered a dumb idea.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Well, I'm just curious to know why you rank Boston and Winnipeg's group better than this one. I'm sure I could of name of few other team, but those 2 popped out.

I like Bostons group better

Ryan Donato
Anders Bjork
Urho Vaakanainen
Trent Frederic
Jack Studnicka
Jakob Forsbacka Karlsson
Jakub Lauko
Zach Senyshyn
Jakub Zboril
Jeremy Lauzon
Peter Cehlarik

Winnipeg I said was debatable due to all their recent graduates but I am super high on Vesalainen and Niku.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

This is a not a good prospect group, middling perhaps, and Kotkaniemi was a reach who has a lot to prove.

Agreed on all accounts.

A team with a pool like Montreal also can't afford to be reaching for a need when picking at #3, IMO.