OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: We're the Pirates, bro

[DJ Spinoza]

I have been so so with Cherington, but I think I've actually backed myself into a decent amount of optimism for the near and medium term future. I'm excited to see spring training get underway and effectively I am willing to give Cherington a pass on just about everything up through next winter. The Marte trade is a solid plus to me, and I like the focus on defense.

I also get the slow roll on other roster adjustments, and think that in part, some of the stuff we've batted around (such as infield positioning) will end up being resolved in a decisive manner soon enough. I will be pissed off if the Padres flip Myers and prospects and we aren't even connected at all, but that's somewhat ancillary to the main tasks at hand (although it really can't be forgotten that if they'd part with Campusano, that would be one way to bolster the catching that isn't happening otherwise).

What a Myers trade might foretell to me is that the payroll will be equally slow going. I can stomach not taking on somebody else's problem if there's a viable chance that we'll spend aggressively to supplement the team starting next winter and especially in 2022. But the payroll game has seemed to be a slow going program where there is flexibility, but never aggression or decisiveness. If this team can put together a strong season, the payroll needs to start growing reasonably quickly, not going up to 60 or 75 million for two years and then maybe sniffing 90 and 100 once. I think with internal changes we can really squeeze more wins out of the talent we already have and also have coming, but if we're going to carry a payroll that never even goes over 75 for the next two seasons beyond this one, then there's really no excuse at all for not just using Myers to buy more talent.

 

[DanielPlainview]

On a list of possible players to get busted for PEDs, Pablo Reyes had to be near the bottom.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Remember when Humberto Cota got busted for PEDs? And Ron VIllone, Kevin Young, Jason Christiansen were in the Mitchell Report?

 

[cookthebooks]

i will say p2 'limping along' still has the best community and content of anyone covering the pirates. also wilbur miller said he is in the process of permanently relocating to bradenton.

 

[ChaosAgent]

i will say p2 'limping along' still has the best community and content of anyone covering the pirates. also wilbur miller said he is in the process of permanently relocating to bradenton.

Oh, Wilbur is still involved? That's great news. He's like an old curmudgeonly (but smart) grandpa.

Most of the stuff I saw was by John Dreker, who I'm okay with but don't really think he has any sort of special insight over and above what you see in this thread.

 

[cookthebooks]

the comment system is so inferior to sb nations, but discussions there are really robust. a lot of smart prospect followers chatting.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

This finally moves in the direction of some clarity: Payroll, Kobe and a graphing calculator: 21 takeaways from...

Recently, I was asked if Pirates fans should have more faith in this front office. I have a hard time telling Pirates fans how they should feel. They have reason to not give the organization the benefit of the doubt, even after sweeping changes this offseason. Where I think this front office differs from the previous one is in its plan. Neal Huntington operated under a mandate to construct a borderline playoff team every year, and if it was close, payroll could increase to try putting it over the top. Huntington thought he could sustain it. He couldn’t.

Clearly, Cherington and the new front office have been given the freedom to do things their way. And that means accepting that the window is currently closed.

Nesbitt also floats the idiotic idea of batting Dyson 9th, but luckily Shelton shot it down.

 

[Gallatin]

Name 'em! I love the SS from Arizona, love Priester (plz stay healthy), and love Thomas. Gimme 5 more...

Lets talk Pitchers first. Half my info comes from my $30 anual investment in Pirate Prospects, the rest from the Longehagens of the world. Ask follow up questions when you want to get in-depth on a particular prospect. Don't want to miss the game start talking baseball.

Before we get to the teens I want to mention 20yr olds Tanaj Thomas, Quinn Priester, Braxton Ashcraft, and Michael Burrows as players with very nice tools, and good to crazy good upside. I expect two of those guys will break out this year.

 

[Gallatin]

i will say p2 'limping along' still has the best community and content of anyone covering the pirates. also wilbur miller said he is in the process of permanently relocating to bradenton.

Wilbur is super passive aggressive about the Bucs these days. I'm a bit turned off right now honestly. The Nuttings completely suck, and I am done with that whole conversation. Period. There's a lot more actual baseball talked here as far as I can see. But I do still like pirateprospects....

 

[Gallatin]

Name 'em! I love the SS from Arizona, love Priester (plz stay healthy), and love Thomas. Gimme 5 more...

Roelmy Garcia only 16 is already 6'2" 175 - a RHP out of the DR, gained 5mph recently - to 95mph on FB. Has a plus change-up already, and his athleticism along with ridiculous arm speed scream triple digits to me if he stays healthy. Roelmy is the youngest of our high ceiling pitchers IMO.

I'm not as high yet on 17yr old RHP Christopher Cruz also a class of 19 kid from the DR. Lots of outlets had him among their top-20 International signings, however I am not aware of him already having high end tools, as Garcia surely does.

The 19yr old Columbian RHP Santiago Florez is another high upside arm I like. 6'5" 220 with a fastball in the mid-90's, can really spin a breaking ball too, but needs to learn how to control it. Good statistical progression during his career so far, needs to take a leap this year or next.

Valentin Linarez is another 19yr old 6'5" 220lb RHP out of the DR, with a big fastball and nice statistical progression. Good command for his age, with an effective 3 pitch mix, he fairly dominated the DSL last year.

And I am sure you guys have already discussed the 19yr old Brennan Malone. Kid has a ton of promise.

The game got really boring fast tonight. Shame they didn't show up after taking First in the Metro.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

On the offensive side of things, do you have a read on Alexander Mojica? He was garnering some brief scorching praise last summer, but the hype seems to have cooled for now even though his statlines are great, in part because he was playing against some pretty poor pitching? That's all I've been able to put together.

 

[Gallatin]

On the offensive side of things, do you have a read on Alexander Mojica? He was garnering some brief scorching praise last summer, but the hype seems to have cooled for now even though his statlines are great, in part because he was playing against some pretty poor pitching? That's all I've been able to put together.

I thought this eval was fairly on the money:
. Alexander Mojica – 3B

2019 Top-30
Bio:
Age: 17 yr, Weight: 195 lbs, Height: 6-1
Hits/Throws: R/R
Acquired: J2
Future Value
Ceiling: 50
Realistic: 35
Current Level: R, ETA: 2023

AVG	OBP	SLG	HR	SB	ISO	K%	BB%	SwStr%	Est FB (ft)
.350	.467	.574	8	2	.224	15.6	17	22.3	302.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

"Prototype first baseman with advanced eye at the plate and extreme pull tendencies. Potential to be a high OBP/SLG type.

While Dariel Lopez and Juan Jerez are ranked higher, Alexander Mojica is probably the biggest name right now in the Pirates monster 2018 j2 class. Mojica led the entire DSL with a 1.048 ops in 2019, despite being one of the younger players in the class and walked more than he struck out.

Mojica has the making of an above average hit tool with above average power and an advanced approach. He doesn’t have the same raw power as a Jerez type however and power is to the pull side only as you can see here. Mojica has a fully mature frame at just 17 and was simply a man among boys in the DSL last year. As such, he doesn’t offer much physical projection and will have to work extremely hard to maintain his conditioning.

Defensively, Mojica actually has solid hands and an above average arm at third. If he can maintain his body perfectly, he can stay at the position. But most likely he shifts over to first base, where the Pirates began giving him experience last year. A below average runner, Mojica will likely be well below average at maturity and won’t contribute on the basepaths or have a chance to play corner outfield.

The approach is awesome here. I’d like to see Mojica become less pull heavy and show any sort of opposite field or up the middle power, but he makes good contact and has an advanced feel for the zone and spin. But he’s a very high probability first baseman with a maxed out frame and power that’s unlikely to become a true plus tool, which holds back the ceiling. He’s a remarkably similar player to Malcom Nunez of the Cardinals, albeit with a bit better of an approach and less power."

The full link:
Pirates 2020 Top 30 Prospects — Prospects Live

PP is higher on his arm and speed, hence a better chance at sticking with 3rd. But yes - he faced some pretty bad pitching last year, as one of the younger players in the League. You rarely see a guy display that kind of power in the DSL, especially one that walks more than he K's. High risk kid though due to the body type and extreme pull hitting tendencies.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I thought this eval was fairly on the money:
. Alexander Mojica – 3B

2019 Top-30
Bio:
Age: 17 yr, Weight: 195 lbs, Height: 6-1
Hits/Throws: R/R
Acquired: J2
Future Value
Ceiling: 50
Realistic: 35
Current Level: R, ETA: 2023

AVG	OBP	SLG	HR	SB	ISO	K%	BB%	SwStr%	Est FB (ft)
.350	.467	.574	8	2	.224	15.6	17	22.3	302.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

"Prototype first baseman with advanced eye at the plate and extreme pull tendencies. Potential to be a high OBP/SLG type.

While Dariel Lopez and Juan Jerez are ranked higher, Alexander Mojica is probably the biggest name right now in the Pirates monster 2018 j2 class. Mojica led the entire DSL with a 1.048 ops in 2019, despite being one of the younger players in the class and walked more than he struck out.

Mojica has the making of an above average hit tool with above average power and an advanced approach. He doesn’t have the same raw power as a Jerez type however and power is to the pull side only as you can see here. Mojica has a fully mature frame at just 17 and was simply a man among boys in the DSL last year. As such, he doesn’t offer much physical projection and will have to work extremely hard to maintain his conditioning.

Defensively, Mojica actually has solid hands and an above average arm at third. If he can maintain his body perfectly, he can stay at the position. But most likely he shifts over to first base, where the Pirates began giving him experience last year. A below average runner, Mojica will likely be well below average at maturity and won’t contribute on the basepaths or have a chance to play corner outfield.

The approach is awesome here. I’d like to see Mojica become less pull heavy and show any sort of opposite field or up the middle power, but he makes good contact and has an advanced feel for the zone and spin. But he’s a very high probability first baseman with a maxed out frame and power that’s unlikely to become a true plus tool, which holds back the ceiling. He’s a remarkably similar player to Malcom Nunez of the Cardinals, albeit with a bit better of an approach and less power."

The full link:
Pirates 2020 Top 30 Prospects — Prospects Live

PP is higher on his arm and speed, hence a better chance at sticking with 3rd. But yes - he faced some pretty bad pitching last year, as one of the younger players in the League. You rarely see a guy display that kind of power in the DSL, especially one that walks more than he K's. High risk kid though due to the body type and extreme pull hitting tendencies.

Sounds like best case is a Kendrys Morales type. Maybe a platoon version.

 

[Winger for Hire]

He's way too young and raw to get that detailed into his future like that.

I know I've seen at least 2 Miguel Cabrera comps on him.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Hopefully none of them pull a Luis Heredia

 

[Winger for Hire]

Hopefully none of them pull a Luis Heredia

 

[ChaosAgent]

Hopefully none of them pull a Luis Heredia

A few will. A few won't. That's why you want a large number of them.

 

[cookthebooks]

Wilbur is super passive aggressive about the Bucs these days. I'm a bit turned off right now honestly. The Nuttings completely suck, and I am done with that whole conversation. Period. There's a lot more actual baseball talked here as far as I can see. But I do still like pirateprospects....

i dont think hes passive about his disdain at all. i also dont understand how you can talk about baseball, which is a business, without talking about the limitations on your preferred franchise arbitrarily set by the owner of that business which are decidedly out of line with other owners self imposed limitations. it hangs over every aspect of the organization from drafting, international signing, player development, and the major league club.

 

[ChaosAgent]

i dont think hes passive about his disdain at all. i also dont understand how you can talk about baseball, which is a business, without talking about the limitations on your preferred franchise arbitrarily set by the owner of that business which are decidedly out of line with other owners self imposed limitations. it hangs over every aspect of the organization from drafting, international signing, player development, and the major league club.

It definitely does. Nutting is a disgrace and runs the Pirates as a profit center rather than a break-even business with the promise of cashing out at a higher valuation (as owners these days ought to do).

But harping on this subject constantly really impedes discussion and enjoyment for most of us. I really don't want this thread to become another one of those places.

 

[cookthebooks]

It definitely does. Nutting is a disgrace and runs the Pirates as a profit center rather than a break-even business with the promise of cashing out at a higher valuation (as owners these days ought to do).

But harping on this subject constantly really impedes discussion and enjoyment for most of us. I really don't want this thread to become another one of those places.

how do you talk about the pirates settling for second best without putting it in the context of what they can actually do as a baseball operation under nuttings business requirements?

 

[ChaosAgent]

how do you talk about the pirates settling for second best without putting it in the context of what they can actually do as a baseball operation under nuttings business requirements?

I still believe it's possible to field a competitive...even WS-winning...team at the 25th percentile of MLB payroll. Largely because of baseball's ridiculous CBA where control drafting/developing teams control their players through their entire athletic primes (if not rushed to the majors).

It's just a lot harder. And that sucks. But also it's fun to frame the uphill challenge and imagine how it might be taken on.

 

[cookthebooks]

I still believe it's possible to field a competitive...even WS-winning...team at the 25th percentile of MLB payroll. Largely because of baseball's ridiculous CBA where control drafting/developing teams control their players through their entire athletic primes (if not rushed to the majors).

It's just a lot harder. And that sucks. But also it's fun to frame the uphill challenge and imagine how it might be taken on.

i think the tampa bay rays probably are the best example and to my knowledge they avoided the nutting decreed obsession with .500 that guaranteed mediocrity and not a clear eyed look at how best to target windows to compete. i mean thats why the pirates have archer and the rays glasnow and meadows?

 

[ChaosAgent]

i think the tampa bay rays probably are the best example and to my knowledge they avoided the nutting decreed obsession with .500 that guaranteed mediocrity and not a clear eyed look at how best to target windows to compete. i mean thats why the pirates have archer and the rays glasnow and meadows?

If you want to get into the motivations for the Archer trade, here ya go:

1) Generate buzz in the town. The Pirates had just come off a 10-gane winning streak and still no one was going to the park. Nutting rightly assumed it's because he and the org was hated and asked NH to make a splashy trade.

That's like the majority of the explanation right there. Other far more minor parts:
1) They didn't believe in Glasnow. At least not here.
2) They were still iffy on Meadows
3) They still believed in Searage and thought Searage-Archer were a match made in heaven.
4) NH had a long-standing obsession with Archer in much the same way that Rutherford feels about Jason Zucker.

 

[cookthebooks]

If you want to get into the motivations for the Archer trade, here ya go:

1) Generate buzz in the town. The Pirates had just come off a 10-gane winning streak and still no one was going to the park. Nutting rightly assumed it's because he and the org was hated and asked NH to make a splashy trade.

That's like the majority of the explanation right there. Other far more minor parts:
1) They didn't believe in Glasnow. At least not here.
2) They were still iffy on Meadows
3) They still believed in Searage and thought Searage-Archer were a match made in heaven.
4) NH had a long-standing obsession with Archer in much the same way that Rutherford feels about Jason Zucker.

now i am really confused. you just said a nutting business decision to increase attendance made them make a bad looking at the onset trade irrespective of what happened next for meadows/glasnow but yet we arent supposed to view everything baseball ops wise in the context of what it means that nutting owns the pirates?

 

[Winger for Hire]

It's easy to separate the business and baseball sides, if you just look at it from a slightly neutral standpoint. I understand people mixing them, I know I have many times, but just step back and look at it from a purely baseball angle and it's easy.