OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: The Condemned of Altoona

[DanielPlainview]

What happened to Kuhl? I see he had to leave the game with an arm injury

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I didn't notice anything but I can't say I've been paying too close attention.

Another solid outing from (Richard) Rodriguez.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

In my many years here on this board, there has never been a post with more false information than this one.....

wow

You are incorrect. One of us actually knows a thing about how businesses run and finances and it isnt you.

 

[FlightlessBird]

After the Mets win, Bob Walk “They did not deserve it. Did not deserve it.” Brown says, “Well, the Pirates didn’t deserve it either.” Tells you all you need to know about these teams.

 

[Coastal Kev]

You are incorrect. One of us actually knows a thing about how businesses run and finances and it isnt you.

Your logic is flawed.

Fact- Nutting isn't using all of the resources at his disposal to win. He's not. His first priority is to hit a certain number each year in profit.

So the question becomes how much is that profit??? You really think he's scraping by? And you run businesses? Interesting.

Let me ask you a direct question using my logic: If Nutting is barely above the profit line and his first concern is the bottom line, why doesn't he sell the team for a HUGE PROFIT???


........................

Answer: (Please note, there is only one possible answer)

 

[Shwag33]

You are incorrect. One of us actually knows a thing about how businesses run and finances and it isnt you.

Please, I own my own business as well; stop with your holier than though attitude....A professional sport team isn't and shouldn't be run like a normal business.

If you own a professional sports team to do the bare minimum you're just an asshole. It's like buying a ferrari, you don't buy one expecting to make money. It's his right to do it, but at the same time he shouldn't have a single supporter that stands or even justifies what he's doing.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Please, I own my own business as well; stop with your holier than though attitude....A professional sport team isn't and shouldn't be run like a normal business.

If you own a professional sports team to do the bare minimum you're just an *******. It's like buying a ferrari, you don't buy one expecting to make money. It's his right to do it, but at the same time he shouldn't have a single supporter that stands or even justifies what he's doing.

At no point did i argue against anything you said. IMO Bob Nutting SHOULD be willing to take more risk. Or he should sell to someone who will. But that doesn't change the fact that he isnt taking profit out of the team. And EVEN IF the Pirates org is making a profit, those profits IF NOT being spent in some way (whether its payroll, scouting, paying down debt, or stadium improvements etc) IS staying with the team. And doesn't benefit Bob Nutting personally unless he disburses to all of the owners (which he hasn't been doing much to their chagrin) or sells.

He doesnt get to just put any operating profit directly into his bank account.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Your logic is flawed.

Fact- Nutting isn't using all of the resources at his disposal to win. He's not. His first priority is to hit a certain number each year in profit.

So the question becomes how much is that profit??? You really think he's scraping by? And you run businesses? Interesting.

Let me ask you a direct question using my logic: If Nutting is barely above the profit line and his first concern is the bottom line, why doesn't he sell the team for a HUGE PROFIT???


........................

Answer: (Please note, there is only one possible answer)

First of all Bob isnt hurting for money. Lets get that out of the way.

Lets assume your "fact" is correct and Bobs only goal is for the team to make X dollars in operating profit.

What does he gain by this?

Because since your such a savvy businessman you should know him just cutting himself a check and taking money from the business's profits is illegal. Not to mention if personal money is what he was after all he would have to do is take a salary for the work he does with the team. Which would be consistent and would not need the team to make a profit in the first place.

 

[DanielPlainview]

I'm curious how much money Yinzers think Nutting has laying around. I feel like these are people who don't understand the difference between wealth and money in the bank.

 

[cheesedanish87]

The Pirates and Mets look like 2 evenly matched bad teams.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

The Pirates and Mets look like 2 evenly matched bad teams.

The best part of this season might be the day they realize they suck and start selling.

 

[cookthebooks]

too bad the sellby date on harrison was last year and now they will get garbage back for him instead of a decent asset

 

[Shwag33]

I'm curious how much money Yinzers think Nutting has laying around. I feel like these are people who don't understand the difference between wealth and money in the bank.

Last time I saw an estimate it was around the 200 mill liquid.


Queue the those sources aren't accurate posts!

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Last time I saw an estimate it was around the 200 mill liquid.


Queue the those sources aren't accurate posts!

Lets assume those are correct. If you want him to personally fund the team from his own pockets, he would need to spend what? 20 mil or so per season just to get up to average? Do you think anyone would seriously consider spending 200 million dollars in 10 years for a slightly better chance at contending.

 

[Winger for Hire]

The best part of this season might be the day they realize they suck and start selling.

Sadly, I don't really see them getting a whole lot from the guys they would/should move.

Harrison, Cervelli, Freese, Mercer, SRod, Nova are their only real options to move. Nova might get you something "interesting" from a pitching desperate team. The others, well, you're looking at league average or worse production or a constant injury worry. Harrison's value is back down after rebuilding it last season. Freese is a defensive, back-up corner guy. Cervelli is swinging a bat, but injuries are back. Mercer is a nice option for a team looking to shore up their MI depth chart on the cheap. SRod is barely a AAAA player right now. Maybe deal Fraizer if a team is looking to make their bench more versatile? But, again, it's not like you're going to get a prospect from him.

I would think Dickerson could fetch something good, but I think he'd be valuable to the team next season (since I'm assuming they'll come out of the gates again trying to compete while retooling) as a part of their outfield rotation.

This isn't saying they shouldn't sell these guys. Freese moving lets them get Moran all the ABs at 3rd; Harrison's departure would, hopefully, let Newman/Kramer get a couple months under their belts. And getting something for someone like Mercer, who's gone next season most likely, is never a bad thing.

 

[TNT87]

They should be sellers. The problem is they have NH doing the selling.

 

[DanielPlainview]

NH is pretty good at trades. He wins far more than he loses.

 

[Coastal Kev]

First of all Bob isnt hurting for money. Lets get that out of the way.

Lets assume your "fact" is correct and Bobs only goal is for the team to make X dollars in operating profit.

What does he gain by this?

Because since your such a savvy businessman you should know him just cutting himself a check and taking money from the business's profits is illegal. Not to mention if personal money is what he was after all he would have to do is take a salary for the work he does with the team. Which would be consistent and would not need the team to make a profit in the first place.

Nope, answer my question and then I will address your point. I spelled it out clearly and I'm waiting for your response.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Nope, answer my question and then I will address you point. I spelled it out clearly and I'm waiting for your response.

Because he likes owning a baseball team, and he doesnt need the money.

There now answer mine.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Because he likes owning a baseball team, and he doesnt need the money.

There now answer mine.

OK, that's an answer and I'll agree he enjoys owning an MLB team, again the question is WHY does he enjoy it? I'm sure it's cool, he likes baseball, it an impressive title to have in his world...........


But logic and the facts tell a different motivation:
Nutting bought the team for 92 Million dollars.
The team is currently valued at 1.26 BILLION dollars.
Profit per year? 20-90 million dollars. (no way of ever knowing this number but for this discussion let's agree that it's 40 million, which I believe is way low.)


You buy X company for 92 million dollars and you have a yearly ROI of nearly 50% of initial investment. Also the value of your asset has grown by 1000% over 20 years.

Would you ever sell a business with those numbers???? Also you have zero competition, you own your MARKET.

The only risk Nutting has is if we are in a bubble with Major leagues sports evaluations, which is possible, but based on the historical data seems impossible.

Very smart business decision on Nutting's part. But he treats it like a business which means his only consideration is maximizing profit. They want to win only to the point that it helps out revenue. They will not ever spend one dime over that number that won't see an ROI.


The problem I have with Nutting is that he isn't honest about his true intentions. He still says his main goal is to win a championship, this is a LIE and people have finally caught on to the plan.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

OK, that's an answer and I'll agree he enjoys owning an MLB team, again the question is WHY does he enjoy it? I'm sure it's cool, he likes baseball, it an impressive title to have in his world...........


But logic and the facts tell a different motivation:
Nutting bought the team for 92 Million dollars.
The team is currently valued at 1.26 BILLION dollars.
Profit per year? 20-90 million dollars. (no way of ever knowing this number but for this discussion let's agree that it's 40 million, which I believe is way low.)


You buy X company for 92 million dollars and you have a yearly ROI of nearly 50% of initial investment. Also the value of your asset has grown by 1000% over 20 years.

Would you ever sell a business with those numbers???? Also you have zero competition, you own your MARKET.

The only risk Nutting has is if we are in a bubble with Major leagues sports evaluations, which is possible, but based on the historical data seems impossible.

Very smart business decision on Nutting's part. But he treats it like a business which means his only consideration is maximizing profit. They want to win only to the point that it helps out revenue. They will not ever spend one dime over that number that won't see an ROI.


The problem I have with Nutting is that he isn't honest about his true intentions. He still says his main goal is to win a championship, this is a LIE and people have finally caught on to the plan.

Other than the profit number that you just completely made up, what does the business valuation going up have anything to do with actual profits.

Trying to bury your BS in just a volume of words.

Nobody is arguing against the fact that the valuation is going up. Nobody is arguing that the book are likely in the black. The point is that there are three scenarios that damning the team to maximize every cent benefits Bob Nutting personal finances.

1. He sells the team (which we both argee that he isnt doing)
2. It justifies him taking a salary (which he doesnt)
3. It allows him to distribute profit to all the owners (which he hasnt been doing)

All other scenarios, have the profits staying with the team. Whether they are later spent or saved. Im guessing most of any recent profits are going into the stadium upgrades the last couple/next couple years. Because letting 100 million sit in a bank account/investment account isnt exactly one of the most judicious use of funds for a baseball team, especially one that can be scrutinized byt the MLB/MLBPA since they recieve revenue sharing.

Even the leaked financials i believe the highest single year operating income amout was 14 million and thats BEFORE Interest expenses and Taxes.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Other than the profit number that you just completely made up, what does the business valuation going up have anything to do with actual profits.

Trying to bury your BS in just a volume of words.

Nobody is arguing against the fact that the valuation is going up. Nobody is arguing that the book are likely in the black. The point is that there are three scenarios that damning the team to maximize every cent benefits Bob Nutting personal finances.

1. He sells the team (which we both argee that he isnt doing)
2. It justifies him taking a salary (which he doesnt)
3. It allows him to distribute profit to all the owners (which he hasnt been doing)

All other scenarios, have the profits staying with the team. Whether they are later spent or saved. Im guessing most of any recent profits are going into the stadium upgrades the last couple/next couple years. Because letting 100 million sit in a bank account/investment account isnt exactly one of the most judicious use of funds for a baseball team, especially one that can be scrutinized byt the MLB/MLBPA since they recieve revenue sharing.

Even the leaked financials i believe the highest single year operating income amout was 14 million and thats BEFORE Interest expenses and Taxes.

I have no idea how they are handling profits, but they do have them. I think the evidence speaks for itself, Nutting is maximizing his investment. How he can claim to have any other motivation based on the numbers doesn't add up.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

LOL, S-Rod has a "quad strain," and is going on the DL so that a relief pitcher who no one has ever heard of can come up.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I have no idea how they are handling profits, but they do have them. I think the evidence speaks for itself, Nutting is maximizing his investment. How he can claim to have any other motivation based on the numbers doesn't add up.

Well if they end up spending them then they're really not profits. I mean they are as far as a financial statement go since thy're not spent in the same period but they are not taking it out of the team so it is going somewhere FOR the team. maybe not MLB payroll but somehwere.

It actually behooves them to spend any monies coming in as they would be taxed and taxed highly on those profits. It makes more sense for them to reinvest it somewhere (new scoreboard, new bar, hookers etc) that to give it to the government for no reason.

 

[Shwag33]

Lets assume those are correct. If you want him to personally fund the team from his own pockets, he would need to spend what? 20 mil or so per season just to get up to average? Do you think anyone would seriously consider spending 200 million dollars in 10 years for a slightly better chance at contending.

Can't compete every year, but you have to go for it sometime. If the pirates truly aren't making money the last few years they need to fire everyone in the front office... or sell the team because it's such a terrible investment that they can't turn a profit while spending peanuts when the team is good.