OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Tanking underway

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DJ Spinoza

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Hayes is so phenomenal – I can't believe he managed to make that play for an out on such a slow chopper, deep in the position and from foul territory.

Kuhl getting a no no would have been fun, but I'm actually moderately relieved that he gave up a hit and clamped it down. It's slightly conservative to take him out of the game right now, as he could probably keep going and get through the 7th nearing 100 pitches, but he flashed some wildness in that inning. This is a meaningless game. We likely will win. Kuhl has finished strong and stayed healthy. No reason to risk anything more.
 

Jaded-Fan

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As most know, I go from large periods of disinterest to downright hating the Pirates and baseball. Not the players, but the team and league.

That said, I love to see them shut Chicago loudmouth's mouths and hurting their standing for the playoffs.

So, with that said, I raise my glass and salute these players, :cheers:
 
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DJ Spinoza

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I was wrong about Kuhl going 7, happy to eat a minor amount of crow and happier still that it worked out just fine. Phenomenal outing from him. He's still flashing some wildness on the fastball at times, but he put together a great season on balance. One of his starts was something like 2 innings and tons of runs, on top of at least one or two more that were cut short by a hangnail/finger problem. String of decent starts scattered throughout and a strong finish – gotta look past the overall statline a little bit with him, especially in this weird season.

I really hope we look into an extension with him this winter.
 
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ChaosAgent

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Kuhl's slider, when it's on, is absolute filth.

Assuming Musgrove is traded and Williams is let go somehow, we go into next year with a rotation of:

JaMo
Keller
Kuhl
Brault
Brubaker

And Ponce, Bolton and maybe Kranick as the other guys?

I'd like to see 2 names added to this list but Bob Nutting is still the owner so something tells me that won't happen.
 
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ImporterExporter

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Looks like we are gonna get 2nd overall. I am fine with that.

giphy.gif
 
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JimmyTwoTimes

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We are seriously going to f*** up Rocker with a meaningless, last week winning streak.

If we win another game, everyone should be fired immediately.

Lose out. We get the #1. Simple.

Haha I hear ya but you have to look at it from a pirates POV. If we did get 1st overall then something would happen to ruin it. Rocker has TJ immediately after we draft him. Then a new strain of Polio to which there is no cure.

Getting 2nd overall at least already feels like a loss , so we may be better off.

I like Leiter more than most anyway. Especially in our organization. We need as many players with a good lineage anyway after whats been happening with our prospects(Vaz and Cruz). Hayes has that and he has been great. Al Leiter was a great pitcher. Yeah Jack doesnt have the build that Rocker has but he has the stuff.

Thats if those 2 are still the top prospects by next July. Who knows what the rankings would look like if they were able to play a full college season last year and summer ball.

It is funny tho we were up 4 games on Texas but have now won 3 straight against the Cubs while they lost 3 straight. We have 3 left against Cleveland and they have 3 against Astros.
 

ImporterExporter

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I don't trust this franchise to take a P at 2 when one is BADLY needed. At 1 you are taking Rocker, unless there is something in his medicals that people don't like. I will be shocked if KR isn't #1 when it's all said and done.

I would absolutely take Leiter at 2, but can see Cherington trying to fill the major prospect void Cruz just left (even IF he were to somehow get off without jail time or like 1 year, i don't expect him to be anything). Don't think they haven't already started factoring that in.

Hopefully we simply lose out because I don't see Texas winning a game vs the Stros.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

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With the Pirates luck, give me the less risky pitcher. Leiter has 4 +55 pitches right now. What he lacks in velocity compared to Rocker he more than makes up for it with his stuff and command. Jack is someone who can be reliable for a long time. Rocker is more risk, if his velocity isnt up then he can get into trouble.

I like the fact that Jack didnt even rely on velo to this point, since he should be able to get it ticked up a few notches by the time he is ready.

Rocker is the "sexier" pick but give me the safer bet who we likely know will be a front of rotation pitcher that will get the job done.

But yeah after what happened with Cruz, If CF Jud Fabian hits around 20 HRs, and continues to improve on each of his tools...then he could be our pick.
 

Winger for Hire

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I've talked and watched myself into Hill as the pick I want if the Pirates drop to 1.2. His ceiling is crazy high and a lot of untapped potential. He throws 97/98 smooth and easy and has very nice separation and movement on his slider.

I'm unsure if Leiter's fastball can survive advanced hitters moving forward. It's not terrible, but it's not explosive or heavy and doesn't have much life on it.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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Kuhl's slider, when it's on, is absolute filth.

Assuming Musgrove is traded and Williams is let go somehow, we go into next year with a rotation of:

JaMo
Keller
Kuhl
Brault
Brubaker

And Ponce, Bolton and maybe Kranick as the other guys?

I'd like to see 2 names added to this list but Bob Nutting is still the owner so something tells me that won't happen.

I think this is probably right, with some caveats. I think Jamo will be tried in the rotation, but coming back from a second TJ is not easy, so I don't know that he can be counted on even if he will be penciled into a rotation.

I doubt Cherington gets sentimental about Williams, but in a quasi-rebuilding year, we may decide to keep him around for emergency depth. Ponce is a bit of a wildcard there: his showings this season should obviously catapult him above somebody like Williams, so you figure at the very least that he'll have a chance to compete for a rotation spot, with some possibility of either him or Brubaker ending up as the long man, again of course depending on Jamo's health/how he looks.

We have to explore dealing Musgrove. I'm sort of coming to the idea that we shouldn't trade him, but if the right offer is there, it's a move you have to take. If it's just decent prospects who are younger, I'd keep rolling with Musgrove and see what happens. Our issue is not finding adequate depth guys or supplementary players, it's with impact. If a team is willing to trade you a guy who is risky but has a big ceiling, then I'd send Musgrove in that kind of deal.

The other wrench might be if we got a young pitcher back for Musgrove, which is what I think we should be looking to do, and specifically with Atlanta and either Toussaint or Wright. If we got either one, we'd make room in the rotation. But Atlanta has held onto their prospects with a clenched fist, so I'm not holding my breath. The best we can hope for in that regard is that they lose in the playoffs due to SP. It's feasible that Cherington could go for a low minors deal, and if he can replicate the Marte deal in some capacity, then I think you still pull the trigger, even if I think we should be doing whatever we can to accelerate a window around Hayes.

And I think Kranick is a real outside shot but it's a possibilitty. Bolton could be ready for a look by June/July if the season is normal, but who knows with the layoff where he's at.
 

DJ Spinoza

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I've talked and watched myself into Hill as the pick I want if the Pirates drop to 1.2. His ceiling is crazy high and a lot of untapped potential. He throws 97/98 smooth and easy and has very nice separation and movement on his slider.

I'm unsure if Leiter's fastball can survive advanced hitters moving forward. It's not terrible, but it's not explosive or heavy and doesn't have much life on it.

The people I know who follow prospects all like Hill the most, even including Rocker. I'd be pretty happy with him based on the little I've been reading, though obviously, with anybody, you'd like to have a somewhat normal sheet of starts to go by. I guess it's feasible that college baseball could dial in a somewhat normal season, assuming the kids are taking classes online etc.

I have fully accepted we will drop to 1.2. Everything is clicking right now, especially the pitching, and truth be told I don't think the Indians are all that good. However, the Indians are in a dogfight to make the postseason and still have a shot at winning their division. I think sometimes that can go either way, in the sense that if they take charge, they could get back to wrecking us in this series, but if some balls fall our way tonight, they could end up looking as sometimes frustrated, sometimes listless as the Cubs did this week.

Our attitude / rooting has no bearing at all, of course. I'm willing to basically say that I want to see Keller finish his season strong tonight even at the "cost" of winning a game. Something in the vicinity of 6IP, 2 R or less, with a healthy amount of Ks. I don't feel too differently about Musgrove or Brubaker tomorrow. The pitching is obviously extremely dialed in right now, but I don't see it as guys pitching over their heads drastically so much as finally finding a groove and flashing what could be possible, at least for some of them, going forward. That's not an empty thing to be excited about in this pointless season, even if it's going to piss a lot of people off.

I should be clear: I firmly want Rocker first and foremost as a player who will be fun to root for. I am not too convinced that he's the clearcut frontrunner, in that things could shuffle around a bit between now and the draft, which isn't really the case when you have generational talent available. Obviously, you still want to be in control of taking your pick when the time comes, but the most important thing for me has always been that we stay firmly in the top echelon of the draft, 1.1 or 1.2, with Hill for me as 1.3 early on.

I think if there's a season, there could be genuine buzz that Hill is in the mix for 1.1 based on what I've read. Leiter could really pop out, or Rocker could slam the door. One thing that I don't know is talked about enough is that Rocker also missed the chance to showcase himself last summer and take a step forward. Even though some are down on the lack of projectability, he's still in some ways the safest type of pick, IMO, because with the stuff he currently has, he'll be able to anchor the middle of a rotation as long as he stays healthy for a long time. The upside probably in part comes down to just how good you rate the slider as well as the development of a third pitch.

Anyways, tldr; , the fact that Hill has a somewhat polished changeup despite so little coaching is quite intriguing. I think if he even starts to flash the slider as plus on top of staying healthy, he'll get some chatter at 1.1 if nobody else is slamming the door shut. The other thing that's in theory possible is that Texas gets pick #1 and takes a prep shortstop or Fabian, leaving us our pick of the college pitchers anyways.
 

Winger for Hire

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With the Pirates luck, give me the less risky pitcher. Leiter has 4 +55 pitches right now. What he lacks in velocity compared to Rocker he more than makes up for it with his stuff and command. Jack is someone who can be reliable for a long time. Rocker is more risk, if his velocity isnt up then he can get into trouble.

I like the fact that Jack didnt even rely on velo to this point, since he should be able to get it ticked up a few notches by the time he is ready.

Rocker is the "sexier" pick but give me the safer bet who we likely know will be a front of rotation pitcher that will get the job done.

But yeah after what happened with Cruz, If CF Jud Fabian hits around 20 HRs, and continues to improve on each of his tools...then he could be our pick.


Jack still has a fair bit to show in 2021. His command on his secondary offerings needs some polish; his curve floats out of his hand a lot and leaves it up. When he doesn't snap it off it gets very loopy and easy to pick up out of the hand. And I'm unsure how much he can be coached up without altering his mechanics, which is where he gets most of his talent from-- his mechanics are crisp, clean, and repeatable and make up for what his natural talent lacks.

Another thing that has me pumping the Leiter brakes is his spin numbers... they're all very low, sub-MLB average, but his spin efficiency on them is nearly perfect. So the pitches might be at their max unless you start messing with arm angles, pitch grips, body movement, which in turn could run a risk of really of getting him out of sorts until he retrains the muscles.

That said, there is a lot to be said for his arsenal of 55+ pitches, grasp on the mental game, and growing up with a solid MLB pitcher as a father. All solid pieces of the puzzle. However, without showing some growth in 2021, I'm slightly bearish on Leiter as a safe front of the rotation guy; more of a 2/3 mid guy who relies on preparation and hard work to maintain his mechanics. Which is not a bad thing.
 
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Winger for Hire

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how worried are people about rockers weight?

Personally, not worried at all. He seems to have the frame to hold that weight naturally. His listed 255 isn't extremely heavy and he doesn't wear it slobbishly. I would imagine once he gets his signing bonus and gets into an MLB organization you will see him shed some of that from training and such.
 

ChaosAgent

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May 8, 2018
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Personally, not worried at all. He seems to have the frame to hold that weight naturally. His listed 255 isn't extremely heavy and he doesn't wear it slobbishly. I would imagine once he gets his signing bonus and gets into an MLB organization you will see him shed some of that from training and such.

I'm also of the mindset that more weight on a pitcher isn't necessarily a bad thing as far as injury prevention and such.
 

DJ Spinoza

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This seems to be quite a curveball but who knows. If the prosecution isn't presenting evidence (presumably toxicology report?) that he was drunk, then it's hard to conclude anything about "reports" he had alcohol in his system.
 

DJ Spinoza

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I'm also of the mindset that more weight on a pitcher isn't necessarily a bad thing as far as injury prevention and such.

This is also what I've been thinking in seeing these debates, along with what Winger pointed out that he may trim up slightly in a pro context anyways. It's also why I think he might be a kind of safer bet to have a floor in the middle of a rotation, since durability is pretty key there.

I think the question some people seem to raise is that if the velocity goes away, there won't necessarily be extra projection to fall back on in order to increase it. But really, I have no idea how this stuff works, or the extent to which Rocker has dipped in velocity. I think this is why, with a normal season, he could really slam the door on 1.1, because if he goes out and dominates all year with very little dips in velocity, then it will ultimately just come down to whether or not a team sees another player as ultimately projectable as a superstar.

Though it's also worth noting in this context that Hill is already built for a college player, just not to the extent as Rocker. And man... I watched some gifs of Hill's slider and it is really possible to dream on him if he will have upper-90s heat and a plus changeup too. I think tonight/this weekend, not much can be said other than that it's best to get 1.1 because then you can ultimately make the best decision in whatever scenario is thrown at you, obviously.

I don't want to open a can of worms but I'm still of the mindset that a normal, non-pandemic year would not be seeing us sniff a top-3 pick, even as we're still firmly a bottom 6-7 team by almost any accounting, and the injuries that flared up put us incredibly behind the count. But I don't think it's controversial to point to the recent success and the close call at the bottom as indications that we'd have just as good, if not better chance to finish with the 6th or 7th pick if the season was longer. In that sense, the fact that we should be picking 1.1 or 1.2 barring a last minute swerve from MLB is a big coup this year.
 

DJ Spinoza

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I really hope a beat writer breaks everything down next week at some point. From what I can gather, it looks like the charges will still be brought in the absence of evidence. This guy's other tweets confirm that, but I have no clue when the trial will actually be.
 

DJ Spinoza

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This seems to indicate that the matter was entirely resolved today and that Cruz will not face a trial.
 

ChaosAgent

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So uh...we get to keep our killer prospect?

Anyone locked into starting spots offensively next year?
Stallings, Hayes...Reynolds? Oliva cause why not?

If Bell and/or Moran are back they will be the 1b/DH.

I'm willing to trade my avatar Frazier or whomever but there can't be much value there. Tucker and Newman shouldn't get scholarships also. But if Oneil is driving behind them perhaps it'll keep them on their toes.

The position player outlook outside of Hayes is just so dismal right now.
 
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