Hayes is a joke. Very flukey first 17 games. He'll come back down to Earth very, very soon. At the end of the day he's a poor man's Pokey Reese, nothing more.
OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Tanking underway
- Thread starter Scandale du Jour
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Eleventh worst winning percentage in MLB history.
List of worst Major League Baseball season records - Wikipedia(.
Tankathon | 2021 MLB Draft Order
With room to move u on the list.
Fun fact. Pittsburgh also has the second worst record ever.
List of worst Major League Baseball season records - Wikipedia(.
Tankathon | 2021 MLB Draft Order
With room to move u on the list.
Fun fact. Pittsburgh also has the second worst record ever.
DJ Spinoza
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- Aug 7, 2003
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I'm not quite sure why the wheels have come off for Hartlieb lately, after a pretty consistent run. No point in complaining much when you see another phenomenal performance from Hayes, Keller step up and put maybe the best start of any SP this year (not exactly a high bar), and another step on the road to Rocker. I thought Keller was actually getting screwed a few times by Meals.
Hopefully Newman is alright. I wonder if that will finally get Tucker some playing time in the infield.
Hopefully Newman is alright. I wonder if that will finally get Tucker some playing time in the infield.
It was and still a terrible trade. Using Fangraph's WAR:
2018:
Archer: 0.8WAR
Meadows: -0.1WAR
Glasnow: 0.5WAR
2019:
Archer: 0.7WAR
Meadows: 4.0WAR
Glasnow: 2.3WAR
2020:
Archer: 0.0WAR
Meadows:-0.2WAR
Glasnow: 1.2WAR
Archer will have had a major injury and is in his 30s while Baz isn't even included. No one is complaining about this trade, because it is a dead horse: Pirates lost hard if they only "won" the first year of the trade and it will probably get worse from here on out.
OK hahaha whatever the fancy stats tell you, Meadows is very very inconsistent, Glasnow with being as tall as he is is going to be very inconsistent & no one knows what Baz will be
Even if Meadows Glasnow and Baz never play another game they have already lost this dela based on last year alone
DJ Spinoza
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I am increasingly of the attitude that Meadows sucks, but maintain both that it was a bad trade driven by Nutting and perhaps Coonelly, and more importantly, not worth constantly relitigating. This season has been so profoundly miserable that I'm not surprised it reared its head in the final week. I think we should pick up Archer's option and turn him into a multi-inning reliever but it's not happening.
Looks like we ended up getting Carson Fulmer back in the end after all, and also looks like we've really managed to stitch up last place. Musgrove had one of his best ever performances yesterday, and heading into the winter, I feel pretty similarly towards both him and Kuhl. If you can get real, genuine young upside in a trade, then you pull the trigger, but if not, then you should invest some money and try to make them at least possible parts of a winning team whose window can start in 2022 if you are willing to make some other smart investments and get some luck.
I think Musgrove should have an adequate amount of suitors based on past interest, track record, and flashes like yesterday. Kuhl's too unproven on top of the injuries and IMO makes an ideal risk-reward candidate for a longer deal if he's willing to sign it.
Looks like we ended up getting Carson Fulmer back in the end after all, and also looks like we've really managed to stitch up last place. Musgrove had one of his best ever performances yesterday, and heading into the winter, I feel pretty similarly towards both him and Kuhl. If you can get real, genuine young upside in a trade, then you pull the trigger, but if not, then you should invest some money and try to make them at least possible parts of a winning team whose window can start in 2022 if you are willing to make some other smart investments and get some luck.
I think Musgrove should have an adequate amount of suitors based on past interest, track record, and flashes like yesterday. Kuhl's too unproven on top of the injuries and IMO makes an ideal risk-reward candidate for a longer deal if he's willing to sign it.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Using normal boxcar stats, Glasnow has outperformed Archer to date at a fraction of the cost. We don't even need to speculate about future performance or how Meadows or Baz will do.
Archer with the Pirates: 6W 12L 4.92ERA 172IP WHIP 1.395
Glasnow with the Rays: 11W 7L 3.33 ERA 167.2IP WHIP 1.050
DJ Spinoza
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Do you remember where you saw this by chance? I've seen basically four scenarios floated - 2020 record, combined 2019-2020 record, some kind of averaged 162 game W%, and a lottery.
For what it's worth, Passan says in an ESPN story today that a "source" says it's "highly likely" that the draft order will be determined by 2020 record. Still unsure, but that's the best news I've seen in some time.
The scenario in which we would be screwed worst is combined 2019-2020 record. The win percentage idea would still keep us first and presumably a lottery would have us second at worst. From my perspective, but I'm just guessing, the order in terms of convoluted ideas is 2020 record, lottery, and then the latter two in some mix.
One thing I haven't really seen anybody talk about is not wanting to set some unrepeatable precedent in the hopefully unlikely event that there's not 162 games next year, but perhaps also not 60 games either, or something along those lines. In theory the "last 162 games" plan still works, but the problem with both that and the combined record ideas is that it's violating what the league has decided counts as a season. There's a rule that lets them do that, to be sure, but it also seems more like it's in place in the event that this season, such as it is, would have had to be scrapped, or have something happen like the NHL where some early teams were just eliminated, or maybe even worse, had a scenario like with the Cardinals except they could never play the total amount of games in a reasonable time frame.
So in short my sense is that either just going with the 2020 record (which will help big market teams like Washington and Boston, even if they aren't finishing last) or having some lotto are the only viable options. I definitely worry about some super contrived lotto really screwing us.
Winger for Hire
Praise Beebo
Empoleon8771
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DJ Spinoza
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Presumably this was in reference to that report, so I think we're safe.
(This is Cruz's agent, for those who don't recognize the name.)
Winger for Hire
Praise Beebo
I'm not a Spanish speaker, so I didn't look at the actual report.
Did the paper say Oneil died or was the cause of the 3 fatalities?
Did the paper say Oneil died or was the cause of the 3 fatalities?
DJ Spinoza
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It doesn't really indicate, but presumably it means Cruz was driving a jeep and was the cause of three fatalities.
There is some question about the timing of Nieves' tweet, which was about 530/6pm yesterday, whereas the story went up later in the night. However, and I am not fluent in Spanish, the story seems vague about when the accident actually happened. It says it happened "Monday after curfew", i.e. covid curfew, but this could mean it happened in the wee hours of Monday morning, or it could be that it happened sometime right before Nieves' tweet (curfew is at 5pm from what I can tell) or after.
If it's after, then it would be an awfully weird coincidence that Nieves is indicating some other false report ..... but it's the 2020 Pirates here. Still, I mean this is f***ed up, but there's no indication he's hurt or dead, even if the story isn't misreporting his involvement.
There is some question about the timing of Nieves' tweet, which was about 530/6pm yesterday, whereas the story went up later in the night. However, and I am not fluent in Spanish, the story seems vague about when the accident actually happened. It says it happened "Monday after curfew", i.e. covid curfew, but this could mean it happened in the wee hours of Monday morning, or it could be that it happened sometime right before Nieves' tweet (curfew is at 5pm from what I can tell) or after.
If it's after, then it would be an awfully weird coincidence that Nieves is indicating some other false report ..... but it's the 2020 Pirates here. Still, I mean this is f***ed up, but there's no indication he's hurt or dead, even if the story isn't misreporting his involvement.
DJ Spinoza
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To change the subject from this tragic news (whether Cruz is involved or not), it's definitely somewhat interesting to see certain pitchers start to put together good outings in what effectively amounts to May in a normal season. I have tried to be consistent in saying that I don't think a whole lot can be learned or generalized from this season (beyond Hayes being incredible, let's be honest), but this does generate an interesting possibility for next year.
On the one hand, I think both Keller and Musgrove have to be looked at in terms of their injuries. Musgrove kind of seems like a closed book – flashing real front-end upside because he can occasionally put it all together and totally dominate, but likely more of a rotation cog. I think a deeper dive on some peripherals would help, as I'm certainly somewhat intrigued in terms of the swing and miss he's been generating.
Keller will hopefully put together one more good start and go into 2021 as a big unknown but someone still possible to count on as a front end type. It's a cliche, but we'll just have to see if he can step up and actually do it in a full season. For my money, the only major relevant things to keep in mind are 1) how historically unlucky he was in the 2019 season and 2) how his velocity has ticked back up now in his return. The talent, tools, and at least indications of putting it together are all there.
Then there are Brubaker and Brault, who I may overvalue a little bit but I think can be solid #4 types. On the one hand, if you throw out one start, Brault has actually been a very consistent performer since early last season. He's not a worldbeater, but a lefty who can put up an ERA a little north of 4 is a very nice thing to have in the mid/back end of the rotation.
Brubaker is a slight enigma to me and my attitude continues to be wait and see. I think he's shown some good flashes, obviously with last night being a highlight. Like with Musgrove, the swing and miss is key. I think it's pretty clear already that he can be a real weapon as a multi-inning reliever, and in some sense would probably argue that this is a very valuable thing to have, especially if you are going to have multiple guys in the rotation who might be pretty decent and consistent but at the expense of 5 IP starts sometimes. On the other hand, however, if Brubaker can be a mid-rotation type, you have to just let him keep pitching in the rotation and fail out there before trying the bullpen, IMO.
I am extremely high on Kuhl, but it remains to be seen if he'll put it all together. Archer will almost certainly be non-tendered, and we'll have a rehabbed Taillon next year as well. There will be rumors about trades this offseason, and here my attitude is that we should pursue trades if we can get back someone with high upside like Touki Toussaint, but not if we're getting middling/graduating type talent. I'd rather just see us spend a modicum of money to invest in Musgrove longer-term and take my chances.
The only pitcher on the horizon, barring a trade for a Touki or similar, is Bolton. I really hate the exercise of drawing up who is #1, who is #2, etc., because I think it's sort of arbitrary, but there are at least elements here which could make for a much better rotation than we've really seen. The 2020 pitching performance across the board has been atrocious, but you have to contextualize it by recognizing how bad a lot of injuries were.
The biggest question will no doubt be Keller's upside, as well as what Taillon can give you returning from TJS a second time. If you think Musgrove can really be more of the front end guy, then you should just pay him I think – I'm serious, we need to start acting like a clock is ticking to perform well and surround Hayes with a roster that can compete. We'll obviously be crying covid like every other team when it comes to signing free agents (on top of our already-worst cheapness), but the time to start seizing is upon us already, IMO. 2021 can be about solidifying certain supplementary roles, but it should also be a time where we are clearly building towards a 2022 competitive season, especially when you take a sober look and realize that our division is just not very good. I truly don't think anybody but the Cardinals will maintain or improve over the next two years.
On the one hand, I think both Keller and Musgrove have to be looked at in terms of their injuries. Musgrove kind of seems like a closed book – flashing real front-end upside because he can occasionally put it all together and totally dominate, but likely more of a rotation cog. I think a deeper dive on some peripherals would help, as I'm certainly somewhat intrigued in terms of the swing and miss he's been generating.
Keller will hopefully put together one more good start and go into 2021 as a big unknown but someone still possible to count on as a front end type. It's a cliche, but we'll just have to see if he can step up and actually do it in a full season. For my money, the only major relevant things to keep in mind are 1) how historically unlucky he was in the 2019 season and 2) how his velocity has ticked back up now in his return. The talent, tools, and at least indications of putting it together are all there.
Then there are Brubaker and Brault, who I may overvalue a little bit but I think can be solid #4 types. On the one hand, if you throw out one start, Brault has actually been a very consistent performer since early last season. He's not a worldbeater, but a lefty who can put up an ERA a little north of 4 is a very nice thing to have in the mid/back end of the rotation.
Brubaker is a slight enigma to me and my attitude continues to be wait and see. I think he's shown some good flashes, obviously with last night being a highlight. Like with Musgrove, the swing and miss is key. I think it's pretty clear already that he can be a real weapon as a multi-inning reliever, and in some sense would probably argue that this is a very valuable thing to have, especially if you are going to have multiple guys in the rotation who might be pretty decent and consistent but at the expense of 5 IP starts sometimes. On the other hand, however, if Brubaker can be a mid-rotation type, you have to just let him keep pitching in the rotation and fail out there before trying the bullpen, IMO.
I am extremely high on Kuhl, but it remains to be seen if he'll put it all together. Archer will almost certainly be non-tendered, and we'll have a rehabbed Taillon next year as well. There will be rumors about trades this offseason, and here my attitude is that we should pursue trades if we can get back someone with high upside like Touki Toussaint, but not if we're getting middling/graduating type talent. I'd rather just see us spend a modicum of money to invest in Musgrove longer-term and take my chances.
The only pitcher on the horizon, barring a trade for a Touki or similar, is Bolton. I really hate the exercise of drawing up who is #1, who is #2, etc., because I think it's sort of arbitrary, but there are at least elements here which could make for a much better rotation than we've really seen. The 2020 pitching performance across the board has been atrocious, but you have to contextualize it by recognizing how bad a lot of injuries were.
The biggest question will no doubt be Keller's upside, as well as what Taillon can give you returning from TJS a second time. If you think Musgrove can really be more of the front end guy, then you should just pay him I think – I'm serious, we need to start acting like a clock is ticking to perform well and surround Hayes with a roster that can compete. We'll obviously be crying covid like every other team when it comes to signing free agents (on top of our already-worst cheapness), but the time to start seizing is upon us already, IMO. 2021 can be about solidifying certain supplementary roles, but it should also be a time where we are clearly building towards a 2022 competitive season, especially when you take a sober look and realize that our division is just not very good. I truly don't think anybody but the Cardinals will maintain or improve over the next two years.
also very good chance
Archer was pitching while injured & needed Thoracic Outlet Syndrome Surgery
DJ Spinoza
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Perhaps it's not a false report. I'm expecting the worst, like Cruz going to jail or something.
Winger for Hire
Praise Beebo
I feel for the kid. Seems like nothing nefarious and just one of those, sadly, almost everyday Dominican traffic accidents. I can't imagine the metal toll taking three lives accidentally can take on a person.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Passan: Inside a final week like MLB has never seen before
2021 draft is very likely being determined with 2020 standings alone.
2021 draft is very likely being determined with 2020 standings alone.
DJ Spinoza
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If you don't think Pirates fandom is doomed, getting the news that we'll likely get our pick between Rocker, Leiter, or anyone else we want in next year's draft on the same day that we find out about a fluke car accident involving probably the most exciting player in the entire system should be proof enough.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Even assuming he didn't do anything illegal, he could be derailed by the mental toll of having been involved, directly with the death of 3 human beings.
Just f***ing blows all around.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Pirates Top Prospect Oneil Cruz Involved In 'Tragic' Crash, 3 Reportedly Dead
According to Diario Libre, one of the biggest news outlets in the DR, 21-year-old Cruz was riding in a jeep down a highway when it came up from behind and hit a motorcycle.
The outlet reports the bike -- which had 3 occupants on it -- did NOT have its lights on. The report added all three people on the motorcycle died from injuries suffered in the crash.
Doesn't sound like he wasn't driving and the bike had no lights.
Still, just a horrible tragedy.
According to Diario Libre, one of the biggest news outlets in the DR, 21-year-old Cruz was riding in a jeep down a highway when it came up from behind and hit a motorcycle.
The outlet reports the bike -- which had 3 occupants on it -- did NOT have its lights on. The report added all three people on the motorcycle died from injuries suffered in the crash.
Doesn't sound like he wasn't driving and the bike had no lights.
Still, just a horrible tragedy.
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