OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Offseason at the Crossroads

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cheesedanish87

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Jun 27, 2012
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The Pens payroll right now is 79 million, 9 more million then the Pirates payroll.

That's pathetic when you consider the difference between the revenue MLB gets compared to the NHL.

Its really frustrating because if the Pirates had an average payroll they could put together a really good team this year that could contend.
 
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Winger for Hire

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Peace. I'm out...

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Empoleon8771

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That guy is so irrelevant that the reporter didn't even spell his name right.

I'm expecting that they're signing Lyles to be their 5th starter to replace Nova, which is just completely ugh worthy. Lyles looks like he's a right handed Brault, which I don't feel like is a need for the team at all. I just don't get it. What's going to make it worse is that I guarantee that it's either going to be him or Kingham as the #5 starter for next year.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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FV is sort of meaningless for guys in the dev leagues, but even so, clearly a move to shed payroll. I like it only as an early domino towards something more than Kingham/Keller eventually, or a cheaper veteran for that last spot. Upgrading the rotation and having Musgrove and Williams as the #4 and #5 spots is genuinely one of the strongest ways to improve the team, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Lyles is actually a decent depth bullpen guy, I think. His bullpen numbers are fine, and he has experience as more of a longman. Still very early in the offseason. I'm fine with replacing Nova with Kingham even if all it would mean is freeing up the money to get Dozier or Lowrie.

And re: Ahmed, my excitement over him is not because I think he'd meaningfully move the needle, but moreso that he won't cost a whole lot, and still be an upgrade over Mercer and a solid enough stopgap. Paying for Iglesias would be fine if we weren't constantly shuffling around small salaries... given the state of things, I'd rather use some of that money for some more flexibility in the pen with a Diekman etc.

I like to hope Nova was still solid enough at PNC that this is step one in a bigger offseason plan.
 

Empoleon8771

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Lyles is actually a decent depth bullpen guy, I think. His bullpen numbers are fine, and he has experience as more of a longman. Still very early in the offseason. I'm fine with replacing Nova with Kingham even if all it would mean is freeing up the money to get Dozier or Lowrie.

I don't see how people can keep saying this when it comes to the Pirates. I just don't know anymore. It really seems like they're shooting for mediocrity while being as cheap as possible at this point.
 

DJ Spinoza

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I don't see how people can keep saying this when it comes to the Pirates. I just don't know anymore. It really seems like they're shooting for mediocrity while being as cheap as possible at this point.

If you want to let dumping Nova's salary be the black pill for you, I won't stop you, but at minimum I'll see how the rest of the offseason shakes out.

It's totally plausible that the most that will happen is some cheap depth signings and a payroll around 80 million next year (it's ~70 right now all told), but it's 3pm on day two of the winter meetings. I'm not ready to proclaim the Jordan Lyles depth bullpen signing as the only shoe that's going to drop over the next several weeks.
 

ImporterExporter

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Jun 18, 2013
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FV is sort of meaningless for guys in the dev leagues, but even so, clearly a move to shed payroll. I like it only as an early domino towards something more than Kingham/Keller eventually, or a cheaper veteran for that last spot. Upgrading the rotation and having Musgrove and Williams as the #4 and #5 spots is genuinely one of the strongest ways to improve the team, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Lyles is actually a decent depth bullpen guy, I think. His bullpen numbers are fine, and he has experience as more of a longman. Still very early in the offseason. I'm fine with replacing Nova with Kingham even if all it would mean is freeing up the money to get Dozier or Lowrie.

And re: Ahmed, my excitement over him is not because I think he'd meaningfully move the needle, but moreso that he won't cost a whole lot, and still be an upgrade over Mercer and a solid enough stopgap. Paying for Iglesias would be fine if we weren't constantly shuffling around small salaries... given the state of things, I'd rather use some of that money for some more flexibility in the pen with a Diekman etc.

I like to hope Nova was still solid enough at PNC that this is step one in a bigger offseason plan.

How do you do it DJ?

I feel bad for you, honestly. I mean in the sense that you truly love baseball and the Pirates and despite them clearly not trying to actually field a squad capable of winning and thus promoting spending, still have the energy to write up thoughtful insights to how you see things.

I haven't been to a Pirates game in 2+ years now. Won't ever go until Nutting sells. If that takes decades, so be it.
 

Empoleon8771

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I don't see a point to this, is this just the Pirates trying to be edgy? I don't think any of the Pirates pitchers had issues with 1st innings last year outside of Kingham.
 

Winger for Hire

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I don't see a point to this, is this just the Pirates trying to be edgy? I don't think any of the Pirates pitchers had issues with 1st innings last year outside of Kingham.


If anything I think their pitchers got into trouble at the end of their starts, if my recall is any good. And an even bigger issue was many times it came up, it was because there were pen arms "unavailable"
 

DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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Just a few things: 1) you have to take any buzz around the moves as they are happening as just that, buzz. Huntington was literally saying the other day that he's not looking to trade expiring contracts. Whatever chatter there is about Lyles pivoting back to being a starter is just that. He's depth one way or the other. They might do something like roll RichRod out as an opener and have Lyles on board for multi-innings games. Whatever NH says, it's just GM speak that meaninglessly covers numerous conceivable possibilities.

2) With the Nova move, even if it's 100% to clear salary and not reinvest any of it except for this Lyles move and another depth pitcher, it doesn't really significantly change things. In fact, I'm not sure any reasonable FA would do that - even if we spend the $$ for Marwin Gonzalez, I'm not sure how it moves the needle drastically. Huntington has firmly planted the team inside a window of mediocrity, and it's going to either take some real creativity and/or some real luck to burst out of the upper side of the window. Let's even just say, for the hell of it, that he goes on a spending spree and gets Lowrie, Marwin Gonzalez, and trades for Sonny Gray. That's a much better team on paper, but I'm still not quite moved that the ceiling is any different from the 84-88ish wins that the current team has.

To put it more succinctly, I don't quite get having too strong of an emotional investment in anything this offseason, or any other. In fact, the best strategy is to kill your emotion, and only allow it to emerge for micro-level things that something awesome or annoying that happens in the sixth inning of a game next May. We're going to be a fairly good but not great team hoping for a bunch of breaks.
 

USMC607

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Apr 4, 2013
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How do you do it DJ?

I feel bad for you, honestly. I mean in the sense that you truly love baseball and the Pirates and despite them clearly not trying to actually field a squad capable of winning and thus promoting spending, still have the energy to write up thoughtful insights to how you see things.

I haven't been to a Pirates game in 2+ years now. Won't ever go until Nutting sells. If that takes decades, so be it.

I have friends exactly like this.

They played baseball all the way to college though, and their love of the game for them trumps everything else.

No matter how dark or bad the situation gets with the Buccos they hold out hope and try to see things through a bright side.

Me however, I quit baseball and focused on playing just hockey. Also I am not really a diehard baseball fan.

So honestly watching ownership self sabatoge the team by being cheap for how long now turned me off from the pirates a long time ago.

But I admit seeing them in 2013-2015 got me excited as it was refreshing to see them compete again. For some reason I thought during the window this time would be different...

It was not. I played myself. Now I'm back to being a miserable pessimist with them.
 

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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Redmond, WA
It will never happen, but the Pirates could trade Cervelli and sign Harper or Machado for 30 million a year and still have a payroll of around 90 million dollars which would be one of the lowest in MLB.

To be honest, I don't know why they wouldn't pursue this. Spend money on 1 big name guy to get fans in the seats, but go cheap everywhere else. You can have Machado taking up a third of your space and still sent out a competent team.

You have 3 starting infielders on pre-arb deals, with Moran having 2 years left and Bell and Frazier until he's arbitration eligible. When those guys start making real money, you can ship them off and replace them with guys like Tucker and Hayes, who you then get say 3 years out of before you have to ship them out. You can have your entire infield cost like $32 million, with Machado taking up $30 million of that.
 

WheresRamziAbid

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Oct 31, 2013
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If Lyles is in the pen as a multi inning releiver i think its a good signing. He changed his mix and was quite effective as a reliever last year.

If Lyles is a starter... Fart noise.
 

pistolpete11

Registered User
Apr 27, 2013
11,594
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Just a few things: 1) you have to take any buzz around the moves as they are happening as just that, buzz. Huntington was literally saying the other day that he's not looking to trade expiring contracts. Whatever chatter there is about Lyles pivoting back to being a starter is just that. He's depth one way or the other. They might do something like roll RichRod out as an opener and have Lyles on board for multi-innings games. Whatever NH says, it's just GM speak that meaninglessly covers numerous conceivable possibilities.

2) With the Nova move, even if it's 100% to clear salary and not reinvest any of it except for this Lyles move and another depth pitcher, it doesn't really significantly change things. In fact, I'm not sure any reasonable FA would do that - even if we spend the $$ for Marwin Gonzalez, I'm not sure how it moves the needle drastically. Huntington has firmly planted the team inside a window of mediocrity, and it's going to either take some real creativity and/or some real luck to burst out of the upper side of the window. Let's even just say, for the hell of it, that he goes on a spending spree and gets Lowrie, Marwin Gonzalez, and trades for Sonny Gray. That's a much better team on paper, but I'm still not quite moved that the ceiling is any different from the 84-88ish wins that the current team has.

To put it more succinctly, I don't quite get having too strong of an emotional investment in anything this offseason, or any other. In fact, the best strategy is to kill your emotion, and only allow it to emerge for micro-level things that something awesome or annoying that happens in the sixth inning of a game next May. We're going to be a fairly good but not great team hoping for a bunch of breaks.
I get your point, but at some point, these non-significant moves have to start adding up, right?
 
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