Quebec still in discussions.

[Stumbledore]

I can't see a US team relocating to Canada - Atlanta/Winnipeg was a perfect storm in 2011

All of us in the BoH community know a second team in the Toronto area would thrive but Hamilton also has to deal with Buffalo.

Deal with Buffalo how? Hamilton's push to get a team would not be adversely impacted by Buffalo. The Count himself has stated on several occasions that no team has a veto when it comes to expansion.

(For the benefit of the Ernie's of the world, let me quote: "In an interview ... Bettman bristled when asked if the league or its teams would be able to enforce territorial exclusivity.
“If you’re asking me what the vote is if we’re going to grant an expansion franchise? An expansion franchise is a three-quarters vote. Nobody has a veto,” said Bettman.)

 

[Ernie]

He tells you to use a news browser and even tells you what to type. And you reply: typical dodge. I don't get it. Do you want to find the stuff you're insisting don't exist or not?

Let me make it real simple for you:

1 - Type in NHL.COM in that empty horizontal slot at the top of your browser.

2 - On the next page, click on the word NEWS

3 - In the news file, page down to July 21, 2015.

4 - Come back to the HF Boards and angrily insist that's not what you were really asking about because of (a) its spelled different (b) its not the right color (c) it leaves out a word or puts in a word you object to (d) you meant a totally diff subject matter (e) something else.

5 - Rinse. Repeat.

I'm asking for a very simple thing: evidence that Quebecor had the funds in hand to pay $500m USD for a franchise. That request hasn't changed at all since I asked originally and I don't have colour, spelling, wording, or any other objections as long as it confirms this basic information. This request arose from speculation that Quebecor didn't have the funds as it was reported that they had tried but failed to bring on a minority partner.

So far neither of you have produced this info despite repeated requests and yet you're accusing me of being the one who is deflecting.

And now you want me to scroll through literally thousands of stories for some info you both claim to have at your fingertips. Because that's crazy I used an advanced Google search that spit up the following results:
site:nhl.com quebec city - Google Search

Are these the two stories you're talking about? Because neither has the info in it that you claim.

Moving forward, you have two options:
a) produce the info
b) admit you were wrong

Thank you.

 

[ItsFineImFine]

I find it hard to believe that a team in Quebec City will lose money right now, things are economically different than they were in the early-90s. Also, that WPG team was doing fairly well financially, the money loss was more recent and tbh, it's because the team is generally a borderline playoff team. Once Quebec re-locates, I'll assume they're gonna bring in good cash at least for the first few years and after that, it depends on how the team is.

I also find it a bit unprofessional from the league that they're as stubbornly against a Quebec team so far as they are in forcing two teams to work in regions where they have never worked and where good owners in one of those two regions have no interest in buying a team resulting in patchwork solutions which lead to more problems.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Also .... prevaricating like this is what got you your reputation in the old Coyote mega board when you were a huge fan of each successive owner until suddenly you weren't.
.

What? Among the three of you?

 

[Stumbledore]

I mean, they lost money. That's red ink, "bleeding" in the parlance of our times. I'm not saying anyone should pull the plug, but they went from success story to net losses very quickly.

Like I said, it may be that the losses mount up to a point where Phoenix and Florida are no longer viable. The question is, are we talking about a tactical retreat, or are we talking "any port in a storm"? If the latter, QC could be on the table. But if the league has time and space to make a strategic move, I doubt very much that QC would be the target.

Bleeding? Nay, sir, 'tis but a flesh wound!

Fortunately, the Jets are owned by True North Sports and Entertainment which is a multi-tentacled conglomerate that has always turned a tidy profit. One little bauble is the MTS Bell Center which, prior to Covid, booked more than 330 events a year and ranked among the continent's busiest. I have a strong suspicion that the small losses reported by the Jets are more of a bookkeeping issue than an actual reality. Given the number of (albeit small) tax advantages which TNSE benefits from, it's likely in their best interest that the Jets never show a profit on paper. Just one moose's opinion, of course.

I'm fascinated by "the losses mount up to a point" where a team is no longer viable. Florida is losing some serious coin and Phoenix has hemorrhaged money at an alarming rate for close to two decades. The current Coyotes owner is now getting demand notices for non-payment while his casino businesses are shuttered or tanking. So what is that mythical point we anticipate? Like most posters here, I have no clue but am always willing to speculate.

Speaking of speculation: I don't think QC is on the table even when "any port in a storm" is reached. For reasons already mentioned and debated way back when, I think the personalities and political issues in le belle province will keep the NHL at a wary distance for some time to come.

 

[Mightygoose]

Weather Quebecor had or didn't have the money is not available on-line or it's really speculation or an opinion as a reason why they we're denied. Much like some people say PKP's political views was a reason. There's nothing to back that up either.

What we do know is.

• Quebecor fronted a 10 million application fee with 2 million non-refundable. This was done knowing the expansion fee was 500 million. Does this sound like the actions of a firm that didn't have the money?
• One reason why their bid was 'deferred'. The reasons stating was the state of the dollar...which was 77 cents at the time of the application. Not too much lower than it is today. Didn't stop them from applying
• The other reason was the alignment. If money was the issue and it was resolved, does the league really go to 33 teams or close the door to Seattle later? I doubt it.
• Quebecor was seeking an investor(s). Do we know for how much? If the league wanted 2 western teams...which was one of the reasons given....why invest if there is no available seat at the table?
• One of the member of Quebecor - Pierre Dion - was at the press conference when Vegas was awarded. Can someone cite another case where someone from an unsuccessful expansion bid was at a presser of enlarging a league that they're not joining? I can't think of one.

 

[Stumbledore]

I also find it a bit unprofessional from the league that they're as stubbornly against a Quebec team so far as they are in forcing two teams to work in regions where they have never worked and where good owners in one of those two regions have no interest in buying a team resulting in patchwork solutions which lead to more problems.

If you think the NHL is a bit unprofessional, you haven't seen just how full-out, unprofessionally evil the league can be.

(For the benefit of the Ernie's of the world, check out the book: "Power Plays, an Inside Look at the Big Business of the National Hockey League" by Gil Stein. After you've finished the book, you'll be amazed at how few people ended up in jail.)

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I also find it a bit unprofessional from the league that they're as stubbornly against a Quebec team so far as they are in forcing two teams to work in regions where they have never worked and where good owners in one of those two regions have no interest in buying a team resulting in patchwork solutions which lead to more problems.

This is one of the dumbest thing I have ever read.

Quebec. Is. Not. Entitled. To. An. NHL. Team.

If you think the NHL is a bit unprofessional, you haven't seen just how full-out, unprofessionally evil the league can be.

(For the benefit of the Ernie's of the world, check out the book: "Power Plays, an Inside Look at the Big Business of the National Hockey League" by Gil Stein. After you've finished the book, you'll be amazed at how few people ended up in jail.)

Gil Stein? Talk about pot calling kettle black.

 

[Stumbledore]

Gil Stein? Talk about pot calling kettle black.

Yeah, old Gil was a major piece of work. Amazing that he stayed out of jail, too.

Still, he was the CEO of the Flyers, worked as counsel to the NHL for a couple of decades, and even served as NHL head until the Count took over. He knew the business of hockey. Plus, you've got to admire a guy who pulls a secret vote to get himself into the Hall of Fame.

Finished out his days as a professor in Villanova's School of Law. Don't know if that says more about VU or Stein's incredible salesmanship.

If it "takes a crook to catch a crook", who's better qualified to document the criminal activities of the NHL than Gil Stein?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Bleeding? Nay, sir, 'tis but a flesh wound!

Fortunately, the Jets are owned by True North Sports and Entertainment which is a multi-tentacled conglomerate that has always turned a tidy profit. One little bauble is the MTS Bell Center which, prior to Covid, booked more than 330 events a year and ranked among the continent's busiest. I have a strong suspicion that the small losses reported by the Jets are more of a bookkeeping issue than an actual reality. Given the number of (albeit small) tax advantages which TNSE benefits from, it's likely in their best interest that the Jets never show a profit on paper. Just one moose's opinion, of course.

I'm fascinated by "the losses mount up to a point" where a team is no longer viable. Florida is losing some serious coin and Phoenix has hemorrhaged money at an alarming rate for close to two decades. The current Coyotes owner is now getting demand notices for non-payment while his casino businesses are shuttered or tanking. So what is that mythical point we anticipate? Like most posters here, I have no clue but am always willing to speculate.

Speaking of speculation: I don't think QC is on the table even when "any port in a storm" is reached. For reasons already mentioned and debated way back when, I think the personalities and political issues in le belle province will keep the NHL at a wary distance for some time to come.

No doubt, there are shell games being played in all facets of this issue. HRR is pretty straightforward, though. The Jets don't sell enough tickets/ads/merch to pay for their players. That's noteworthy in the context of the history there.

Is it a pressing concern? Not really. Much like Florida, the hockey team is part of a bigger moneymaking scheme. Lose the team, the rest of the plan stops making sense. So as long as the bigger picture is unchanged, the team stays.

I don't know where the Yotes fit in to that dynamic. That story has so many twists and turns that I've stopped trying to remember which shell the ball is under. At this point I just think of them as an unlikely yet permanent feature of the landscape, like the Old Man of the Mountain.


*checks wikipedia* Oh no

 

[Stumbledore]

No doubt, there are shell games being played in all facets of this issue. HRR is pretty straightforward, though. The Jets don't sell enough tickets/ads/merch to pay for their players. That's noteworthy in the context of the history there.

Is it a pressing concern? Not really. Much like Florida, the hockey team is part of a bigger moneymaking scheme. Lose the team, the rest of the plan stops making sense. So as long as the bigger picture is unchanged, the team stays.

I don't know where the Yotes fit in to that dynamic. That story has so many twists and turns that I've stopped trying to remember which shell the ball is under. At this point I just think of them as an unlikely yet permanent feature of the landscape, like the Old Man of the Mountain.


*checks wikipedia* Oh no

You summed it up perfectly. I can relate to "I've stopped trying to remember which shell the ball is under" when it comes to the finances of the Coyotes.

 

[mouser]

Weather Quebecor had or didn't have the money is not available on-line or it's really speculation or an opinion as a reason why they we're denied. Much like some people say PKP's political views was a reason. There's nothing to back that up either.

What we do know is.

• Quebecor fronted a 10 million application fee with 2 million non-refundable. This was done knowing the expansion fee was 500 million. Does this sound like the actions of a firm that didn't have the money?
• One reason why their bid was 'deferred'. The reasons stating was the state of the dollar...which was 77 cents at the time of the application. Not too much lower than it is today. Didn't stop them from applying
• The other reason was the alignment. If money was the issue and it was resolved, does the league really go to 33 teams or close the door to Seattle later? I doubt it.
• Quebecor was seeking an investor(s). Do we know for how much? If the league wanted 2 western teams...which was one of the reasons given....why invest if there is no available seat at the table?
• One of the member of Quebecor - Pierre Dion - was at the press conference when Vegas was awarded. Can someone cite another case where someone from an unsuccessful expansion bid was at a presser of enlarging a league that they're not joining? I can't think of one.

As someone who spent a lot of time reading Quebecor financial statements at the time, the company didn't have the liquid assets sitting readily available to pay an expansion fee. All of the reporting at the time was Quebecor was seeking a partner to own the team with them. Never saw a good report on how much the partner was expected to commit vs. Quebecor and how Quebecor would raise the necessary funds. Imo it most likely would have involved Quebecor borrowing money.

Quebecor's business was negatively hit by the drop in the CAD<>USD rate as almost all of their revenues are collected in CAD, while a material number of costs are paid in USD.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Yeah, old Gil was a major piece of work. Amazing that he stayed out of jail, too.

Still, he was the CEO of the Flyers, worked as counsel to the NHL for a couple of decades, and even served as NHL head until the Count took over. He knew the business of hockey. Plus, you've got to admire a guy who pulls a secret vote to get himself into the Hall of Fame.

Finished out his days as a professor in Villanova's School of Law. Don't know if that says more about VU or Stein's incredible salesmanship.

If it "takes a crook to catch a crook", who's better qualified to document the criminal activities of the NHL than Gil Stein?

NHL owners are crooks but its not like all billionaires aren't.

Unless you are advocating for socialism, you ain't gonna have a solution there buddy.

 

[Stumbledore]

NHL owners are crooks but its not like all billionaires aren't.

Unless you are advocating for socialism, you ain't gonna have a solution there buddy.

I've been in a hospital bed for the past month and it hasn't cost me a cent. You "ain't gonna" find a bigger advocate for socialism than me.

Any chance you can point to what makes "all billionaires" crooks? I don't expect you to list all 2,100+ of them. But if you could just list the top 20 or so and point out what makes them crooks it would satisfy my curiosity.

 

[Stumbledore]

Weather Quebecor had or didn't have the money is not available on-line or it's really speculation or an opinion as a reason why they we're denied. Much like some people say PKP's political views was a reason. There's nothing to back that up either.

It depends what you consider to be backing up an opinion. These days people disregard any authority which doesn't echo their opinion, dismiss it as inaccurate, or simply yell Hoax and Fake News. And the reaction you get if you quote anything from Forbes reminds me of a vampire confronting a crucifix.

On a different discussion group, someone challenged me about PKP's political views and I referred them to the 19 October, 2018 profile in the Globe and Mail. They refused to accept the information saying that the paper probably misquoted him. I referred them to PKP's comments in November, 2019 on his own Twitter feed and Facebook accounts and was told that wasn't representative of the man.

I gave up when I realized that if I had dragged PKP himself in front of my poster, he'd probably claim that I'd recruited an imposter.

 

[tiredman]

IMO, it's clear Quebecor is waiting for a team being offered for relocation.

It seems it could happen at some point but who knows when... Maybe in a couple years... Personally, I still believe it but it seems as the time passes, the population is losing hope and interest.

Pretty much everyone doesn't care that much about hockey anymore. I know many people who used to watch a lot of nhl games... They don't follow it anymore, no interest. The NHL took us for granted, in QC, for many years and they still do. They focused on growing the game in usa. I guess they either don't care about us, or they're making a huge mistake. Time will tell.

 

[Brownies]

Well, yes and no.

They are trying to generate a bigger national TV deal by having a bigger footprint in bigger American markets. They are trying to make the league less gate-driven.

As a Quebec City guy, it sucks. But the strategy makes sense. Is it working? No. Could it be revised? Probably. However, we have to be realistic, coming to Quebec City does not help the NHL grow. It COULD very well stabilize a franchise, but, long term, the upside is not huge. Quebec City is what it is and demand here will never be higher.

I remember around year 2000, everyone in the whole province of Quebec laughed at the Habs before Theodore's great year and Saku's return from cancer. The province fell in love again with the team but now it's back to (mostly) apathy. I believe that a team in Quebec will be required eventually to bring some Montreal vs Quebec rivalry into it. It's mostly due to mediocre performance from the team, but overall the market in Quebec (the province) could be better in my opinion.

 

[Gnashville]

EXCEPT - If fans are not allowed anytime soon some teams could have an issue with payroll.

If the virus continues to keep teams from playing in front of fans, how does playing in an empty arena in Florida vs an Empty one in Quebec help the Panthers payroll situation?

 

[Blue Warriors]

Does increasing tv viewership and merchandise sales help?

 

[Melrose Munch]

My issue with Quebec is that a lot of players will put them on NTCs/NMC like they do with Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I find it hard to believe that a team in Quebec City will lose money right now, things are economically different than they were in the early-90s. Also, that WPG team was doing fairly well financially, the money loss was more recent and tbh, it's because the team is generally a borderline playoff team. Once Quebec re-locates, I'll assume they're gonna bring in good cash at least for the first few years and after that, it depends on how the team is.

I also find it a bit unprofessional from the league that they're as stubbornly against a Quebec team so far as they are in forcing two teams to work in regions where they have never worked and where good owners in one of those two regions have no interest in buying a team resulting in patchwork solutions which lead to more problems.

The reason Winnipeg lost money last year was simple.

The team always had an internal budget and said they were a "mid cap" team. But starting in 2017 they felt their window was open and they started spending to the cap. This worked in 17/18 as the team made additional playoff revenue by making it to the conference finals.

It didn't work in 18/19 when they still paid to the cap, but were bounced in the first round.

 

[Fenway]

The reason Winnipeg lost money last year was simple.

The team always had an internal budget and said they were a "mid cap" team. But starting in 2017 they felt their window was open and they started spending to the cap. This worked in 17/18 as the team made additional playoff revenue by making it to the conference finals.

It didn't work in 18/19 when they still paid to the cap, but were bounced in the first round.

I think we will see expanded playoffs going forward to get teams an extra gate.

 

[majormajor]

I find it hard to believe that a team in Quebec City will lose money right now, things are economically different than they were in the early-90s. Also, that WPG team was doing fairly well financially, the money loss was more recent and tbh, it's because the team is generally a borderline playoff team. Once Quebec re-locates, I'll assume they're gonna bring in good cash at least for the first few years and after that, it depends on how the team is.

I also find it a bit unprofessional from the league that they're as stubbornly against a Quebec team so far as they are in forcing two teams to work in regions where they have never worked and where good owners in one of those two regions have no interest in buying a team resulting in patchwork solutions which lead to more problems.

I think Quebec should get a team, it's a much better market than South Florida or Arizona (though not nearly as good as Toronto-2), but it's really not hard to believe that a Quebec team will lose money in a lot of years. 16 out of 32 teams miss the playoffs. A lot of clubs lose a little bit of money most years and make a small profit in a good year. The franchise values are high across the league but the profits aren't. They should put a team in Quebec but do it on the understanding that it will lose much less money than AZ or FL, not on the understanding that it will be profitable. Ownership in Quebec will have to value being a benefactor.

 

[Masked]

My issue with Quebec is that a lot of players will put them on NTCs/NMC like they do with Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa.

It would be the least attractive Eastern market for players and possibly only behind Winnipeg, Edmonton and Calgary league wide.

 

[Dynamite Kid]

Didn't Brian Mulroney claim, when it leaked the team's expansion bid would not succeed, Quebec would have a team by 2024. He stated we just needed to be patient. Do you think a deal was already in the works for Florida to move as soon as it could?