GDT: PS Game #1A| Washington at FLYERS (split squad) |Mon., Sep. 22, 2014| 7:00 p.m. ET

[LegionOfDoom91]

But I also see quite a lot of people defending him or convinced he's going to be better.

I don't think people are convinced he'll be better. I think it's more of people hoping & taking the wait & see approach variety. The only thing people in here are defending is others drawing definite conclusions from one preseason game (the first one of the year at that).

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think I'm on both sides of the Vinny debate. On the one hand, he could certainly be better this year. On the other, his back might still be shot and he could continue sliding into oblivion.

 

[Embiid]

I don't think people are convinced he'll be better. I think it's more of people hoping & taking the wait & see approach variety. The only thing people in here are defending is others drawing definite conclusions from one preseason game (the first one of the year at that).

I'm taking the Meltzer line of thinking with Vinny that he expressed in the offseason....highly doubtful he can change his colors at this point. One game in and I already saw more of the same. I expect it to continue...hope it doesn't.

 

[Random Forest]

Maybe, or maybe he just doesn't give a crap anymore. He looks like he gives no effort out there at all. And believe me, I am NOT one to go out and call players lazy,etc.

Yes I read the boards... of course. But I also see quite a lot of people defending him or convinced he's going to be better.

Not giving enough effort is one of the few things you absolutely can't criticize Lecavalier for. Even at his worst year, the dude was still going balls out.

He just doesn't have it anymore. It's certainly not for laziness.

EDIT: And nobody, not one person on this forum, has defended his performance last year. We all recognize how terrible he was.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Not giving enough effort is one of the few things you absolutely can't criticize Lecavalier for. Even at his worst year, the dude was still going balls out.

He just doesn't have it anymore. It's certainly not for laziness.

EDIT: And nobody, not one person on this forum, has defended his performance last year. We all recognize how terrible he was.

How do you surmise he was going balls out? By never moving his feet at all, losing every single puck battle, literally never back checking?

Yes I concede that health could be the cause. But I also don't see any visible signs that he's trying real hard to win. He looks like he's given up and maybe its a combination of both.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I'm taking the Meltzer line of thinking with Vinny that he expressed in the offseason....highly doubtful he can change his colors at this point. One game in and I already saw more of the same. I expect it to continue...hope it doesn't.

Quite possible, I'm just hoping like hell it doesn't at this point. I'm willing to see how things play out a little more longer is all I'm saying though.

 

[Embiid]

This is what Bill had to say in the offseason. I had posted in a Vinny thread about how he fits in this season....

Even in strictly hockey terms, the Flyers are in a pickle if they go into next season with Lecavalier on the roster. He will be professional about it, and won't rock the boat. In return, the Flyers will try their best to find ways for him to be effective within head coach Craig Berube's system that heavily emphasizes skating and a collective 200-foot game.

Doing so will be easier said than done, unfortunately.

Last season, Berube moved Lecavalier all around the lineup in an effort to find a spot where his still-considerable finishing touch could be effective while also minimizing some of his limitations. Lecavalier spent stints of varying lengths on all four lines. He was tried without success on both right wing and left wing as well as his accustomed center position. Unfortunately, no matter where he was used, he had trouble keeping up with the pace of play. The player's skating and defensive deficiencies were glaring.

In actuality, the spot where Lecavalier was most effective in the second half of the season came during his stint as fourth-liner center and power play specialist. However, that was not an arrangement that made either the player or the team very happy. Lecavalier is a proud player who is used to being a key contributor on his teams. He did not come to Philly to be a fourth line player or to shuttle around the lineup.

Unfortunately, the Flyers have essentially the same team they had at the end of last season. The one major change was the Scott Hartnell trade. Right now, it would take a major leap of faith to believe that Lecavalier will fit the system any more easily than he did last season.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...loses/45/61343

 

[Random Forest]

How do you surmise he was going balls out? By never moving his feet at all, losing every single puck battle, literally never back checking?

Yes I concede that health could be the cause. But I also don't see any visible signs that he's trying real hard to win. He looks like he's given up and maybe its a combination of both.

He moved his feet plenty; they just don't move as fast anymore and he's lost his sense for where to go. It wasn't effort that got in the way there.

He also backchecked hard, but simply had no sense for that side of the puck. Again, not an effort problem.


He looked defeated last season, but he never stopped giving effort, and to that, I give him a lot of credit.

 

[Curufinwe]

He should be able to contribute on the third line (in terms of ES ice time) with players like Umberger, Raffl and Akeson to support him. And of course on the PP.

 

[RJ8812*]

Bill said it? well we aren't allowed to disagree with anything he says...

 

[Embiid]

Bill said it? well we aren't allowed to disagree with anything he says...

Well of course you can...not suggesting his word is gospel but he typically makes good observations that play themselves out. I was just trying to explain my rationale for basically judging him prematurely thus far...fair or not.

 

[Random Forest]

He should be able to contribute on the third line (in terms of ES ice time) with players like Umberger, Raffl and Akeson to support him. And of course on the PP.

Exactly. He needs very low maintenance linemates. Guys who can keep things simple, but still have enough skill to get things done. Umberger, Raffl, and Akeson are the perfect guys for him.

I do think he can be successful. I'm not expecting a strong year out of him, but I don't see any reason why he can't be a net positive despite his performance last year.

 

[kelmitchell]

Not giving enough effort is one of the few things you absolutely can't criticize Lecavalier for. Even at his worst year, the dude was still going balls out.

He just doesn't have it anymore. It's certainly not for laziness.

EDIT: And nobody, not one person on this forum, has defended his performance last year. We all recognize how terrible he was.

That's where you are wrong I was the only one that gave him credit for going all out every game and everyone here all laughed and told me I was dumb blah blah blah

 

[sa cyred]

That's where you are wrong I was the only one that gave him credit for going all out every game and everyone here all laughed and told me I was dumb blah blah blah

You can go all out and not play well. Sadly that means his skills are deteriorating. He played like a 3rd/4th line player. Like I said I like the guy but it is the truth. It might not be his effort but just his skill with age.

 

[Stizzle]

He should be able to contribute on the third line (in terms of ES ice time) with players like Umberger, Raffl and Akeson to support him. And of course on the PP.

I'm expecting the exact opposite. That line sounds like a complete abortion at ES. But that's just my opinion.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

He should be able to contribute on the third line (in terms of ES ice time) with players like Umberger, Raffl and Akeson to support him. And of course on the PP.

Exactly. He needs very low maintenance linemates. Guys who can keep things simple, but still have enough skill to get things done. Umberger, Raffl, and Akeson are the perfect guys for him.

I do think he can be successful. I'm not expecting a strong year out of him, but I don't see any reason why he can't be a net positive despite his performance last year.

I'm expecting the exact opposite. That line sounds like a complete abortion at ES. But that's just my opinion.

Like Stizzle said, I don't see where the optimism is here. That combination as a non-4th line sounds like a liability.

You can go all out and not play well. Sadly that means his skills are deteriorating. He played like a 3rd/4th line player. Like I said I like the guy but it is the truth. It might not be his effort but just his skill with age.

And I can buy that partially, but how does someone's puck skills and awareness on the ice deteriorate because their back is messed up? I can buy the skating related issues tied to that. But the guy couldn't keep the puck on his stick for a second, he didn't seem to know/care about where to be on the ice, and he took a lot of lazy penalties. You would think those things would stick around in your 30's.

 

[Embiid]

I'm expecting the exact opposite. That line sounds like a complete abortion at ES. But that's just my opinion.

I thought the same thing.....not a good mix IMO...

 

[Curufinwe]

Like Stizzle said, I don't see where the optimism is here. That combination as a non-4th line sounds like a liability.

Raffl and Umberger are both faster and better defensively than BSchenn and Simmonds. And it was the BSchenn-Vinny-Simmonds line that was the liability last year.

he took a lot of lazy penalties.

That's your bias talking. Vinny took seven minor penalties all season.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....FAFALL&sort=minorPenalties&viewName=penalties

 

[Embiid]

BSchenn- Simmonds-Vinny was definitely a liability. They couldn't sustain puck possession for any considerable amount of time since B Schenn was bad last year on the forecheck and Vinny couldn't skate. Simmonds was good on the forecheck but not that great carrying the puck although he improved some on that last year. I sort of see a mix of Umberger, Raffl and Akeson with Vinny having "similar" problems 5 on 5 for various reasons..maybe not as pronounced.

 

[flyershockey]

Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Read-Couturier-Simmonds
Umberger-Raffl-Lecavalier
PEB-Laughton-Rinaldo

That's the lineup that I'd like to see. I think it's the best way to match skillsets, while also covering up for some major flaws that some them have.

I know people might want Laughton in the AHL this year in an offensive role, but I'm not sure it does much for his development as an NHL player. He's always going to be mainly in a bottom six defensive role while Giroux and Couturier are on the roster. Might as well start grooming him for it now in a limited role.

 

[Random Forest]

That's where you are wrong I was the only one that gave him credit for going all out every game and everyone here all laughed and told me I was dumb blah blah blah

I wasn't talking about giving credit to him for working hard. A couple of us have. I mean that nobody was delusional enough to believe he actually played well though.

Like Stizzle said, I don't see where the optimism is here. That combination as a non-4th line sounds like a liability.

If the other three lines shake out as they should, that means we only have one line that needs to be sheltered. Umberger-Lecavalier-Raffl/Akeson with easy minutes is not a bad combo.

Unfortunately, our fourth line is expected to carry some dead weight, so I'm not sure how much we can afford to shelter that line, but it's very possible that they can make themselves useful IF they are used properly.

And I can buy that partially, but how does someone's puck skills and awareness on the ice deteriorate because their back is messed up? I can buy the skating related issues tied to that. But the guy couldn't keep the puck on his stick for a second, he didn't seem to know/care about where to be on the ice, and he took a lot of lazy penalties. You would think those things would stick around in your 30's.

Players get worse as they get older. If you watch Vinny in the offensive zone, particularly in the corners and behind the net, you can see he still wants to do things he was doing at 24. Lots of stops and starts with quick puck movements to draw defenders away. It doesn't work anymore, but when he had his coordination in tact, he was able to routinely beat guys and drive the puck to the net or set players up at the goalmouth.

His coordination has been off, and that effects everything. His hands, feet, and mind are no longer in sync, and that's really all there is to it. His mind wants to do one thing, but his hands and feet don't work in step like they used to.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Raffl and Umberger are both faster and better defensively than BSchenn and Simmonds. And it was the BSchenn-Vinny-Simmonds line that was the liability last year.



That's your bias talking. Vinny took seven minor penalties all season.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....FAFALL&sort=minorPenalties&viewName=penalties

Well, I remember the penalties he took standing out as the lazy stick infraction variety. Maybe the total wasn't "a lot".

If the other three lines shake out as they should, that means we only have one line that needs to be sheltered. Umberger-Lecavalier-Raffl/Akeson with easy minutes is not a bad combo.

Unfortunately, our fourth line is expected to carry some ded weight, so I'm not sure how much we can afford to shelter that line, but it's very possible that they can make themselves useful IF they are used properly.

That's kind of what I'm seeing. The 4th line looks like it's going to be below average for today's NHL, and the 3rd line doesn't have the correct makeup to be trusted with anything resembling tough minutes.

Having two even strength liability lines on the roster is going to be a major problem this season, IMO. I'm high on Raffl as a 3rd liner moving forward, and Umberger should be fine there, although I'm not really excited about him either... the rest is 4th line and/or one dimensional material that doesn't belong on lines like that.

Players get worse as they get older. If you watch Vinny in the offensive zone, particularly in the corners and behind the net, you can see he still wants to do things he was doing at 24. Lots of stops and starts with quick puck movements to draw defenders away. It doesn't work anymore, but when he had his coordination in tact, he was able to routinely beat guys and drive the puck to the net or set players up at the goalmouth.

His coordination has been off, and that effects everything. His hands, feet, and mind are no longer in sync, and that's really all there is to it. His mind wants to do one thing, but his hands and feet don't work in step like they used to.

I think that's a decent explanation - good point. That said, I still did not really see much that indicated he was giving the level of effort that some did. I'll be sure to pay closer attention this season but I seem to recall being frustrated with him gliding around quite a bit last season.

 

[BernieParent]

My strategy for Lecavalier is to ride him hard to begin the season. He either steps up or wears out / gets injured. If he isn't fitting, best to make it painfully obvious to him to force his hand on where he sees himself with this organization.

Optimal would be if he retires.

As for BSchenn taking major hits, he is obviously the Flyers' Dead Pool.

 

[Stizzle]

My strategy for Lecavalier is to ride him hard to begin the season. He either steps up or wears out / gets injured. If he isn't fitting, best to make it painfully obvious to him to force his hand on where he sees himself with this organization.

I agree. If he is given one chance, it is make or break. He should not be coddled. If he can't step up to an acceptable level he should be healthy scratched. If needed, it should be made abundantly clear he isn't welcome here anymore.

 

[Funf]

Letting him know he isn't welcome won't accomplish anything. We can't get rid of him - no other team in the league wants his contract, apparently. And if he retires, we're still stuck with his cap hit.

The Flyers are just trying to make the best of a bad situation, and fit him in somewhere, somehow.