Prospect and Marlies Thread: 2017 - 2018 (continued)

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Liminality

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Brannstrom's at number 20 on his list and I think Liljigren is comparable to him. After that he has Juolevi (I think he should be higher), Philipe Myers, Connor Timmins, Pierre-Olivier Joseph, Adam Fox, Dante Fabbro (like him a lot), Kale Clauge (Think he's awesome too) and Cal Foote ahead of Liljigren. Seems like a lot of dmen ahead of him when Liligren has been pretty good since his draft year. Does he not put much stock in AHL numbers for some reason?
 

TheMadHatTrick

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He has Batherson really high too...

It's a really bad list. If he saw anything of what Liljegren did in the AHL, he would easily have him top 25. Probably higher. If he was not injured, Liljegren probably could have challenged for top 10. Like Alex Nylander is at 25, is a pure offensive winger, and is getting outproduced by a high end two-way defenseman who is a year younger than him in fewer games.

It's a wonky list, but I wouldn't say Liljegren is easily in the top 25. He's only played 21 of 41 games this year, after missing most of last season, so not a huge sample to evaluate. In the games he has played he's looked good but also had more than a few Jake Gardiner moments (giveaways, losing focus, soft on his man, too non-chalant).

He's only 18 obviously, and has a ton of talent and upside, but he belongs closer to the back of the top 50 imo than he does at the top. I have no idea why Nylander is on that list though, and as high as he is. Kid is looking like a bust.
 

SeaOfBlue

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It's a wonky list, but I wouldn't say Liljegren is easily in the top 25. He's only played 21 of 41 games this year, after missing most of last season, so not a huge sample to evaluate. In the games he has played he's looked good but also had more than a few Jake Gardiner moments (giveaways, losing focus, soft on his man, too non-chalant).

He's only 18 obviously, and has a ton of talent and upside, but he belongs closer to the back of the top 50 imo than he does at the top. I have no idea why Nylander is on that list though, and as high as he is. Kid is looking like a bust.

He's 18, but in a tough men's league too. It's impressive to see these Europeans do well in the SHL, Liiga or KHL, but that's an ice surface they've always been playing on. Liljegren is on a new ice surface, new team, new system and a much more physical league that all point towards him faultering, but instead he is thriving in it. I'd be willing to bet half of the players in that top 50 could not say the same if they were put into the same situation. Don't even need to mention he was Sweden's 2nd best defenseman easily at the WJC's, nor than he's the Marlies 2nd best defenseman (which is the best defensive corps in the AHL), and that there are more than a few people who have missed a chunk of time on that list.
 

Mr Hockey

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He's 18, but in a tough men's league too. It's impressive to see these Europeans do well in the SHL, Liiga or KHL, but that's an ice surface they've always been playing on. Liljegren is on a new ice surface, new team, new system and a much more physical league that all point towards him faultering, but instead he is thriving in it. I'd be willing to bet half of the players in that top 50 could not say the same if they were put into the same situation. Don't even need to mention he was Sweden's 2nd best defenseman easily at the WJC's, nor than he's the Marlies 2nd best defenseman (which is the best defensive corps in the AHL), and that there are more than a few people who have missed a chunk of time on that list.

"Marlies 2nd best defenseman" you are kidding? ... that would make him pretty much in top 10 best AHL d'men with Dermott.
 
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TheMadHatTrick

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He's 18, but in a tough men's league too. It's impressive to see these Europeans do well in the SHL, Liiga or KHL, but that's an ice surface they've always been playing on. Liljegren is on a new ice surface, new team, new system and a much more physical league that all point towards him faultering, but instead he is thriving in it. I'd be willing to bet half of the players in that top 50 could not say the same if they were put into the same situation. Don't even need to mention he was Sweden's 2nd best defenseman easily at the WJC's, nor than he's the Marlies 2nd best defenseman (which is the best defensive corps in the AHL), and that there are more than a few people who have missed a chunk of time on that list.

You're entitled to your opinion. I haven't put a list together but I'm sure he wouldn't "easily" be in my top 25, and nowhere near the top 10. Probably put him in the 30-40 range (maybe 28) just off the top of my head.

The Marlies play great team defense buoyed by strong goaltending, but they are stronger as a whole than as the sum of their parts. Liljegren being the second best of this group (behind Dermott who is awesome) isn't really saying much, no shot intended. Who else is there that's really to compete with? Nielsen, Holl, Valiev?

I don't know what else to say. I like him as a player, and he's the guy I wanted at the draft, but I'm keeping it real.

I think he'll be good but I'm under no illusion that it's guaranteed or that he has nothing to work on. He'll probably be easily in the top 25 next year FWIW. I really don't get this mindset that a person can't express any criticism for a Leafs prospect. It's not even criticism so much as a subjective, but non-fawning evaluation.

I found this video looking around today, and I think it's a fair depiction of both the good and bad that you can expect to see from a young defenseman playing in NA for the first time.

 
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SeaOfBlue

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You're entitled to your opinion. I haven't put a list together but I'm sure he wouldn't easily be in my top 25. Probably put him in the 30-40 range (maybe 28) just off the top of my head.

The Marlies play great team defense buoyed by strong goaltending, but they are stronger as a whole than as the sum of their parts. Liljegren being the second best of this group isn't really saying much, no shot intended.

I don't know what else to say. I like him as a player, and he's the guy I wanted at the draft, but I'm keeping it real.

I think he'll be good but I'm under no illusion that it's guaranteed or that he has nothing to work on. He'll probably be easily in the top 25 next year FWIW. I really don't get this mindset that a person can't express any criticism for a Leafs prospect. It's not even criticism so much as a subjective, but non-fawning evaluation.

I found this video looking around today, and I think it's a fair depiction of both the good and bad that you can expect to see from a young defenseman playing in NA for the first time.



Well it's also a matter of the fact that everyone on that list are prospects. It's an entire list judged by potential and uncertainty. I'm basing my claims purely on what he has done so far, and what he can become in comparison to the others on that list. It's not to say he's guaranteed to become a #1 defenseman, but it is to say he's just as (if not more) likely to become that type of potential than a fair number of those ranked in the top 25.

And what you said at the end is another thing. He is on NA ice for the first time. That is an added challenge that he has been able to overcome that these other guys have not had to face. They either are doing well on an ice surface they've been on their entire lives, or playing against competition far worse than Liljegren is currently facing. I always said I wanted Liljegren to be able to further develop his game defensively because it'll be a lot to handle doing that and getting used to the ice at once, but he has somehow found a way to do it.

And besides maybe Marincin, he has consistently outperformed every defenseman on the Marlies besides Dermott. I understand it is a team effort and stuff, but even talent wise the Marlies defense is one of the best in the league and being close to the best on is good at any age, never mind 18.

If you had him in the 30's or 28, vs. 25, that's nothing. There's not that much variance in that range, and really I would not be surprised if Button just picked out of a hat of certain names by that point, or went off of who had more hype.
 

TheMadHatTrick

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Well it's also a matter of the fact that everyone on that list are prospects. It's an entire list judged by potential and uncertainty. I'm basing my claims purely on what he has done so far, and what he can become in comparison to the others on that list. It's not to say he's guaranteed to become a #1 defenseman, but it is to say he's just as (if not more) likely to become that type of potential than a fair number of those ranked in the top 25.

And what you said at the end is another thing. He is on NA ice for the first time. That is an added challenge that he has been able to overcome that these other guys have not had to face. They either are doing well on an ice surface they've been on their entire lives, or playing against competition far worse than Liljegren is currently facing. I always said I wanted Liljegren to be able to further develop his game defensively because it'll be a lot to handle doing that and getting used to the ice at once, but he has somehow found a way to do it.

And besides maybe Marincin, he has consistently outperformed every defenseman on the Marlies besides Dermott. I understand it is a team effort and stuff, but even talent wise the Marlies defense is one of the best in the league and being close to the best on is good at any age, never mind 18.

If you had him in the 30's or 28, vs. 25, that's nothing. There's not that much variance in that range, and really I would not be surprised if Button just picked out of a hat of certain names by that point, or went off of who had more hype.

Yeah, I definitely don't see how he didn't make the list at all. And you're right a lot of the guys from 25 on are more or less interchangeable a lot like how in baseball equal 50FV prospects pretty much occupy the last 60 spots on a given top 100 list.

I'll try to put a list together and see where he winds up. Sam Steel is way too low on that Button list imo.
 

LeafChief

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Rasanen seems to have slowed down a little bit (points-wise). I know Day was brought in and is probably taking some PP time.

Can anyone that's watched him play comment?
 

Menzinger

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Rasanen seems to have slowed down a little bit (points-wise). I know Day was brought in and is probably taking some PP time.

Can anyone that's watched him play comment?

I haven’t watched him play, but the Athletic ran an article a little while ago that seemed to imply his struggles were more psychological- ie he apparently was pretty home sick/missing family ect.
 

saltming

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Rasanen seems to have slowed down a little bit (points-wise). I know Day was brought in and is probably taking some PP time.

Can anyone that's watched him play comment?
Agreed with what @Menzinger says above
I've seen 3 games and Rasanen looked better than day every shift so even if his numbers are down he was still doing a good job out there but that was very limited viewing
 

LeafChief

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I haven’t watched him play, but the Athletic ran an article a little while ago that seemed to imply his struggles were more psychological- ie he apparently was pretty home sick/missing family ect.
That's tough. I feel for the guy.

It can't be easy being a teenager and being that far from home. Hopefully the team helps him with getting through this.
 

Mikeyg

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Lily is probably 2 years away guys, if dermott took 2 years, lily will probably take 3. Just have to keep on him until he starts consistently picking the better percentage plays on the d side.
 

saltming

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Lily is probably 2 years away guys, if dermott took 2 years, lily will probably take 3. Just have to keep on him until he starts consistently picking the better percentage plays on the d side.
It will be easier to judge next year but Dermott was over cooked imo he was ready halfway through last year.
Liljegren is pretty smart and learns quickly so 2 years is not unreasonable
That said he is a good candidate for over cooking
 
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Mr Hockey

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Babs ...

DVX0jH7UMAEVAjJ.jpg
 
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Mikeyg

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Dermott was ready. They just overcooked him.

I don't really 100% believe that, even babs just said he wasn't ready in training camp. He was good, but he wasn't ready. The extra 4-5 months really did help him.
 

Mr Hockey

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Dermott last season...

He wasn't good in the first half of last season, then missed 15-20 games because of an injury and finished the season off playing well.


~ Borgman, marincin, Rosen, Polak and finally Dermott was called up ...
 
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Apotheosis

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I don't really 100% believe that, even babs just said he wasn't ready in training camp. He was good, but he wasn't ready. The extra 4-5 months really did help him.

Mikey. Babcock a week ago said that if Dermott was a RD, he would have made the team out of training camp. He was ready. He became a victim of Babs obsession with handedness on D.
 

saltming

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Dermott last season...

He wasn't good in the first half of last season, then missed 15-20 games because of an injury and finished the season off playing well.
The onlybthing Dermott didn't do last season was have pp time and thus no points on the first half. That pp time was fed to Nielsen.
After the injury he came back without missing a step and stole the 1st pp from Nielsen and the rest is history
 

Mr Hockey

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The onlybthing Dermott didn't do last season was have pp time and thus no points on the first half. That pp time was fed to Nielsen.
After the injury he came back without missing a step and stole the 1st pp from Nielsen and the rest is history

I dont know about him stealing Nielsen's PP minutes from what I remember, they do run the same PP system the Leafs do. He played well with Oleksy towards the end of the season.
 

saltming

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I dont know about him stealing Nielsen's PP minutes from what I remember, they do run the same PP system the Leafs do. He played well with Oleksy towards the end of the season.
Yes they paired him with Oleksy and Holl but that was 5v5
Like you said they use the same system the leafs did so 1 defenseman. The first half of the season Nielsen played the #1 unit and got the lions share of the minutes. After Dermott came back for the ankle injury that slowly changed. It became obvious Dermott generaled the pp much better. It was stagnant with Nielsen at the point. Dermott's mobility and thinking made the pp much more dynamic
 

Mr Hockey

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Yes they paired him with Oleksy and Holl but that was 5v5
Like you said they use the same system the leafs did so 1 defenseman. The first half of the season Nielsen played the #1 unit and got the lions share of the minutes. After Dermott came back for the ankle injury that slowly changed. It became obvious Dermott generalized the pp much better. It was stagnant with Nielsen at the point. Dermott's mobility and thinking made the pp much more dynamic

I posted in threads before the season started that I think Dermott has top pair "potential" and a better skill set than Rielly, I was told I have no idea what I'm talking about, etc. I use to laugh at 95% of this board who claimed Nielsen was better than Dermott, last season. I have Leafstv which is now called "Leafs nation network" anyways he was not NHL ready last season ;)
 
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saltming

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I posted in threads before the season started that I think Dermott has top pair "potential" and a better skill set than Rielly, I was told I have no idea what I'm talking about, etc. I use to laugh at 95% of this board who claimed Nielsen was better than Dermott, last season. I have Leafstv which is now called "Leafs nation network" anyways he was not NHL ready last season ;)
I've also always been saying top pairing potential and top 4 shoe in. Will he reach Rielly level? Looks like he has a good chance.
Fwiw I watched a couple games last year and like I said half way through the season he was ready. Coincidently Keefe mentioned he was the best young defenseman on the ahl and Babcock mentioned players in the Marlies that should have been on the team then so apparently I'm not alone in thinking he was ready at about the half way point
 
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