Proof Benning Is Not Rebuilding, Just Failing

[y2kcanucks]

it would be great to have a thread where all the consensus predictions of the great hfcanucks brain trust members were objectively listed and summarized right after they were made so folks could honestly analyse the track record of such a machine.

until that happens, for every brayden point there is a jack wise.

I don't think anyone will deny that Jack Wise was the preferred pick here.

What's funny is that the odds neither Madden or Wise make an impact is high.

 

[Draino]

If he was rebuilding there would be more than 1 ELC to start the season on the team. If he was rebuilding he would be acquiring draft picks. The fact that Tampa has more ELC's on their team than the Canucks is an embarrassment.

oh, now you are changing the subject because your analogy was bad. If the was not rebuilding he would have signed or traded for top 6 forwards where goldobin, boeser, and Pettersson are playing. think about it, how many in here where worried about "who is gonna replace vanek and the sedins"...young players....thats who...but no, he is not rebuilding.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

your one liner does not diminish what I wrote. Then you bring up a hypothetical which shows youve lost. Fact is Benning did not bring anyone in here to replace top line production of the Sedins. He relied on a 20 year old and 21 year old. Hell, even goldobin has been given good time in the top 6...you think he couldnt have signed a UFA free agent winger instead? If he was not rebuilding he could have filled those roles with the huge cap he had.

Do you actually think you are making a compelling case here..?

We have a 4th line center overpaid 2x in term and money.
He resigned a 7th Dman to 4mil x 3 yr contract.

Can yoy imagine what a top6er UFA costs in Bennings salary structure?

 

[Peter10]

who cares, the fact is that a 20 year old and 22 year old have replaced the two leading scorers on the team. he could have gone out to the UFA market and got 2 forwards and reduced EP and Brock's role on the team, but he did not.

In 2016 he tried to sign on of the biggest fishes in Lucic and went with another big name in Eriksson in UFA, we know how that turned out. He wanted to sign Tavares but got rejected by him. The fact that the Sedins have been replaced by draft picks (Pettersson and Boeser) is simply by the fact that Jim Benning has been unable to acquire any meaningful player outside of the draft save for Stecher maybe. Any other person who had the Canucks scouting staff available would have yielded similar or the same results. Benning hasnt acquired an extra draft pick that turned out into something good for this team (the chance was there with McCann), he hasnt acquired a player that is going to be a part of the core when the team is finally emerging, he hasnt signed a UFA that will play a significant role in the rebuild. If you take Joe Blow from the street and name him Canucks GM in 2014 and he drafts only in accordance to the Canucks scouting staff, he does not sign a UFA, he does not make a trade, the Canucks are looking similar to what Benning has done. This is why some people prefer a potato as GM over Benning.

It is not a rebuild, it is just incompetence.

 

[y2kcanucks]

oh, now you are changing the subject because your analogy was bad. If the was not rebuilding he would have signed or traded for top 6 forwards where goldobin, boeser, and Pettersson are playing. think about it, how many in here where worried about "who is gonna replace vanek and the sedins"...young players....thats who...but no, he is not rebuilding.

Not changing anything. You think he's rebuilding because he put some young players in the top 6. Then you refuse to acknowledge that Tampa did the same thing, saying it's not the same because Stamkos and Kucherov are still there. As if that actually refutes anything I said.

He's not rebuilding because you can't point to ANY transactions that he's done that are consistent with a rebuild.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Not changing anything. You think he's rebuilding because he put some young players in the top 6. Then you refuse to acknowledge that Tampa did the same thing, saying it's not the same because Stamkos and Kucherov are still there. As if that actually refutes anything I said.

He's not rebuilding because you can't point to ANY transactions that he's done that are consistent with a rebuild.

Yeah.

Sedin's retiring does not equal rebuilding.

 

[Peter10]

it would be great to have a thread where all the consensus predictions of the great hfcanucks brain trust members were objectively listed and summarized right after they were made so folks could honestly analyse the track record of such a machine.

until that happens, for every brayden point there is a jack wise.

For the Braydon Point thing there is an easy prove:

So you think you can draft - 2014 edition


Also wouldnt make a final call on Wise / Madden yet. Sure Madden looks great but he still has a long way to go and could bust hard and people call his selection already a major win. Mainly the same guys who want to give more time to the Juolevis, Linds, Gadjovichs....

 

[Draino]

Do you actually think you are making a compelling case here..?

We have a 4th line center overpaid 2x in term and money.
He resigned a 7th Dman to 4mil x 3 yr contract.

Can yoy imagine what a top6er UFA costs in Bennings salary structure?

this is irrelevant to my point. what he pays or does not pay the 7th dman and a 4th liner has nothing to do with the fact that Benning replaced his top scorers with 2 kids he drafted. He made no moves to fill top 6 roles which resulted in Goldobin playing in the top 6. Thats 3 top 6 players that basically had no experience in carrying a team that have jobs in the top 6. If Benning were not rebuilding he would have filled those roles via trades or ufas.

 

[Draino]

Not changing anything. You think he's rebuilding because he put some young players in the top 6. Then you refuse to acknowledge that Tampa did the same thing, saying it's not the same because Stamkos and Kucherov are still there. As if that actually refutes anything I said.

He's not rebuilding because you can't point to ANY transactions that he's done that are consistent with a rebuild.

why are you having difficulty understanding the difference? it does not suit your narrative that is why.

He simply did not "put some young players in the top 6"...he gave those young players the most important offensive roles on the team. This is not the case with Tampa where point is a complimentary piece. If he was not rebuilding he would have traded away picks or spent big money to fill those holes. Think about it, EP, Brock and Goldobin basically had 0 experience carrying the offense for a team yet here they are with THE MOST prominent roles on the top 2 lines on the team. Its not just sprinking some young players in, they are the go to guys.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

this is irrelevant to my point. what he pays or does not pay the 7th dman and a 4th liner has nothing to do with the fact that Benning replaced his top scorers with 2 kids he drafted. He made no moves to fill top 6 roles which resulted in Goldobin playing in the top 6. Thats 3 top 6 players that basically had no experience in carrying a team that have jobs in the top 6. If Benning were not rebuilding he would have filled those roles via trades or ufas.

How do you replace your top scorers with UFAs if a 4th liners cost 3 million x 4 years?

A top 6er in free agency costs 12 mil + for this salary structure.

why are you having difficulty understanding the difference? it does not suit your narrative that is why.

He simply did not "put some young players in the top 6"...he gave those young players the most important offensive roles on the team. This is not the case with Tampa where point is a complimentary piece. If he was not rebuilding he would have traded away picks or spent big money to fill those holes. Think about it, EP, Brock and Goldobin basically had 0 experience carrying the offense for a team yet here they are with THE MOST prominent roles on the top 2 lines on the team. Its not just sprinking some young players in, they are the go to guys.

You are making a horrible f***in job making your case.

 

[Draino]

How do you replace your top scorers with UFAs if a 4th liners cost 3 million x 4 years?

A top 6er in free agency costs 12 mil + for this salary structure.

what makes you think that because they signed Beagle to his contract they would have had to sign someone else on the same formula? they surely would have overpaid but assuming it would have been proportional is a stretch. Not only that he could have traded away top picks and prospects to fill those roles.At the end of the day he did not because he is rebuilding.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

what makes you think that because they signed Beagle to his contract they would have had to sign someone else on the same formula? they surely would have overpaid but assuming it would have been proportional is a stretch. Not only that he could have traded away top picks and prospects to fill those roles.At the end of the day he did not because he is rebuilding.

He is gaining picks from the league and using those picks.

He is unable to attract meaningful UFAs.

The salary structure in Vancouver is completely out of whack now. It affects every contract signed by Benning here on out.

These things are related.

 

[y2kcanucks]

why are you having difficulty understanding the difference? it does not suit your narrative that is why.

He simply did not "put some young players in the top 6"...he gave those young players the most important offensive roles on the team. This is not the case with Tampa where point is a complimentary piece. If he was not rebuilding he would have traded away picks or spent big money to fill those holes. Think about it, EP, Brock and Goldobin basically had 0 experience carrying the offense for a team yet here they are with THE MOST prominent roles on the top 2 lines on the team. Its not just sprinking some young players in, they are the go to guys.

I'm not understanding the difference because you're trying to argue that the Sedins choosing not to play hockey anymore means Jim Benning is now rebuilding, despite the fact he hasn't done anything that suggests he's rebuilding. The absence of signing certain free agents does not mean he's rebuilding when he went out and gave long-term contracts to other veterans. The fact he still refuses to acquire high draft picks suggests he's not rebuilding.

Benning only has not traded away draft picks because the draft is in Vancouver. He has said so himself.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

He is gaining picks from the league and using those picks.

He is unable to attract meaningful UFAs.

The salary structure in Vancouver is completely out of whack now. It affects every contract signed by Benning here on out.

These things are related.

Most big ticket UFA's want to go to a contender, not to a rebuilding team...With a new core of promising players, the 'circumstances' for attracting UFA's to the Canucks will be different from the previous 3 years.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Most big ticket UFA's want to go to a contender, not to a rebuilding team...With a new core of promising players, the 'circumstances' for attracting UFA's to the Canucks will be different from the previous 3 years.

Still waiting for you to post your list of rebuild transactions that Benning has made. What's the hold up?

 

[Peter10]

why are you having difficulty understanding the difference? it does not suit your narrative that is why.

He simply did not "put some young players in the top 6"...he gave those young players the most important offensive roles on the team. This is not the case with Tampa where point is a complimentary piece. If he was not rebuilding he would have traded away picks or spent big money to fill those holes. Think about it, EP, Brock and Goldobin basically had 0 experience carrying the offense for a team yet here they are with THE MOST prominent roles on the top 2 lines on the team. Its not just sprinking some young players in, they are the go to guys.

So it is only a rebuild because the two top guys retired and the UFAs he tried to sign didnt want to come here?

Earlier you refuted the Braydon Point example because Stamkos is still playing, yet he could be just replacing franchise icon Martin St. Louis who was traded just months before Point was drafted. Seems like you are making just random assumption to fit your cause. If Benning was less incompetent he might have not even be in the position to draft Pettersson. Dont forget they tried to "compete" in 2017 but failed so bad that they ended up with a lottery pick.

 

[timw33]

For the Braydon Point thing there is an easy prove:

So you think you can draft - 2014 edition


Also wouldnt make a final call on Wise / Madden yet. Sure Madden looks great but he still has a long way to go and could bust hard and people call his selection already a major win. Mainly the same guys who want to give more time to the Juolevis, Linds, Gadjovichs....

Majority of people also had Ondrej Kase too. So from that draft we could easily have been looking at: Nylander, McCann, Demko, McKeown (no Vey trade), Point, Kase.

 

[Peter10]

Most big ticket UFA's want to go to a contender, not to a rebuilding team...With a new core of promising players, the 'circumstances' for attracting UFA's to the Canucks will be different from the previous 3 years.

You mean like Connor McDavid attracted all those top UFAs to sign with the Oilers?

Face it, top UFAs are attracted by either a boatload of money or highend and well managed teams that provide a chance at a cup. Benning has only money and that normally gets you an Eriksson and not a Tavares.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Still waiting for you to post your list of rebuild transactions that Benning has made. What's the hold up?

Still waiting for your list of 'playoff push' moves...?...What were they again.?.MDZ,Pouliot,Beagle,Roussel,Nillsson..?..and trading Jordan Subban..?..

 

[Peter10]

Still waiting for your list of 'playoff push' moves...?...What were they again.?.MDZ,Pouliot,Beagle,Roussel,Nillsson..?..and trading Jordan Subban..?..

At least he made an attempt to provide a list, you refusing it, doesnt change that. How about you makeing a list of the rebuild moves and see if he agrees or not?

I have also asked you if there is anything besides the original draft picks where Benning has added anything of value to the long term success. Seems like you are agreeing there is none since I havent seen you mentioning anything.

 

[mathonwy]

Something about not wanting to do your homework.

Sad!

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

Some GMs find quality 4th liners on 600 000/year contracts. We have a 4th liner making 6 million per.

A 4th liner should make around 5-10% of a first liner. So based on Eriksson, if we want to sign a FA first liner it should cost Benning around 60-120 million per year.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Still waiting for your list of 'playoff push' moves...?...What were they again.?.MDZ,Pouliot,Beagle,Roussel,Nillsson..?..and trading Jordan Subban..?..

I provided a list. Those free agent signings, coupled with Benning's neglect for acquiring draft picks, and Benning's interest in re-signing Edler rather than trying to trade him tells me he's not rebuilding.

Now your turn. Why are you stalling?

 

[krutovsdonut]

If he's rebuilding, would you care to do something that none of the pro-Benning side has been able to do and point to specific transactions that he has made that are consistent with a rebuild?

actually people have done that over and over with examples, but you just disagree with them and then pretend there are no examples. you also make the dumb argument that unless someone defending benning (not -"pro-benning") provides a long list they cannot have any argument. well ok, how about a list then? i don't recall you posting a a list so i'll go first and then you follow.

so to use your words, the test is list benning's "moves consistent with a rebuild"? read those words carefully before you say a single word in response. in response i expect your list of "moves inconsistent with a rebuild". i will be after you for it, especially your list of moves this year.

on those words, i will take the bait knowing this will inevitably devolve into you disputing whether a particular move was a rebuild as an absolutist fact rather than just disagreeing. we both know that the dispute will truly come down to our opinions, and you will not respect mine and will use a lot of obnoxious rhetorical devices to suggest mine are laughable or whatever stupid disrespectful thing you will say or hot take tangent you will go off on to overstate or hide the weaknesses of your arguments. we also know there are 8-10 other posters who will pile on here insulting and attacking my opinions in 300 different directions and there is no way i will respond to all of them. in spite of that, i'll do it, because the result will be instructive of what happens here when people go the extra mile as some demand.

in offering the list i will not bother listing draft choices since obviously all of them are consistent with a rebuild, and benning has acquired relatively few extra picks . i will also ignore listing the mysterious mini-tanks late every year since we can debate ad infinitum whether they were deliberate other than the first two when willie d howled about it.

i will be most detailed about this season:

1. this season

-he made zero win now moves over the summer. no team assets (including ufa opportunities) were used for anything but development purposes.
-he signed beagle, schaller and roussel to "firm up the room" expecting a long difficult bad season
-no discernable player moves this season have favoured vets or winning now.
-he has let green sit veterans and recent signings, and arguably you can infer told him to favour development over vets unless the differences were large. at minimum, multiple personnel moves have involved veterans sitting for kids when they could have played the vet and sitting was going to create controversy and make management and the vet look bad (gagner, mdz, schaller)
-he signed boucher on a generous 2 way as ahl depth
-he banished gagner to marlies island to free up a big team roster spot for development even at the cost of a major team distraction and controversy of burying a $3million veteran who was arguably playing within expectations at camp.
-mdz got traded for the same reason gagner was banished, even though he was a veteran and potentially useful depth for the canucks in a playoff hunt they were in.
-he traded nilsson to create room to bring demko up
-every asset he has taken back in a move this year has been either young enough to support the canucks' emerging core or an ahl asset.
-he made no win now moves at the tdl even though the team was closer than they have been in years

2. last season

-he made no win now or big signings over the summer. he signed supporting pieces.
-he gambled on pouliot
-he gambled on motte
-he gambled on burmistrov
-he gambled on leipsic
-after signing weircioch to a one way he buried him all season and called up kids instead.
-he tied up horvat for 6 years on a good contract
-he signed gaudette and burned a contract year to get him on the roster

3. previous season
-the team win now moves were ufa only
-he gambled on acquiring 24 year old gudbranson to become a top dman/leader
-he moved burrows and hansen for goldobin and dahlen

4. previous season
-he gambled on granlund
-he gambled on etem
-he moved lack and bieksa for picks

5. previous season
-moved garrison for a pick
-he gambled on pedan
-he gambled on vey
-he gambled on baertschi
-he gambled on clendenning

note that he definitely didn't acquire picks at a prolific rate and, especially early, he moved picks on gambles that, while team development moves, were a case of moving development assets for older/riper development assets. to me that doesn't mean they weren't development moves, but i know some here will argue dogmatically that they were. whatever.

i have also left a few borderline moves here because it is not worth the debate (i think the kesler trade favoured getting younger over quality of return, and i think the sutter trade was intended to support a new core rather than the sedins) in the sense it will be nothing but a shouting match.

 

[krutovsdonut]

For the Braydon Point thing there is an easy prove:

So you think you can draft - 2014 edition


Also wouldnt make a final call on Wise / Madden yet. Sure Madden looks great but he still has a long way to go and could bust hard and people call his selection already a major win. Mainly the same guys who want to give more time to the Juolevis, Linds, Gadjovichs....

actually, i am making a call on jack wise looking nothing like braydon point even though the clamour for wise here was quite loud.