Proof Benning Is Not Rebuilding, Just Failing

[Peter10]

dude, for the second time, i was comparing people wanting wise to people wanting point, nothing to do with madden. go back and look.

the op said people here wanted to pick point. i noted that people here also wanted to pick wise. wise is not trending like point did.

that is it. madden has nothing to do with it. you are projecting some other argument i am not making.

Wise does not have to trend like Point did. Obviously Point is the outlier here. If you dont even want to include Madden in this, what the point (no pun intended)? Madden tracking well would be one of the few good points for management. The fact that some fans on a board can easily outdraft an NHL GM should be worrying.

And what about the Wise pick? Are you already writing him off? Should he be considered a bad pick by now? Why is it ok to judge him after 10 months when other struggling prospects like Juolevi or Lind (or Dahlen until recently) are always excused?

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

well prospects can be a fickle thing.

also, arguably the jury is still out on a few of the age gap gamble. we are only 5 years into that strategy and some of those age gap gamble guys are still age gap guys and still on the roster.

i mean, you would think that if you had 37 draft picks over 6 years, "you'd have at least one good nhl player who will be part of the long term future of the franchise out of it". but, even after 6 years, gillis had none to show when he was fired. and even after 11 years, we can now say definitively he had only two out of 37.

What does Gillis have anything to do with Benning failing 100% of the time in free agency?

Gillis signed a top pairing Dman in free agency. At a discount contract. He also traded for another top pairing Dman (giving up nothing for him). He signed 1st liners (Samuelson etc.) and core pieces (selke caliber centre) at bargain contracts.

Benning has signed an old 4th line winger at 6 million per. An AHL center for 3 million per. An unplayable depth forward for almost 2 million per.

In fact his best signing ever may be a 3rd line winger who is - currently - almost earning his middle-6 contract (3million long term) but begins his last season of the contract as a 32 year old. And even now, a savvy GM would sign this kind of depth player for around 1 million per.

 

[y2kcanucks]

ok, so to summarize

you believe thatu sing cap space to acquire character players without regard for scoring prowess is not a possible part of a rebuild strategy. why?

you believe that accumulating extra draft picks as a priority is the only way to rebuild. why?

you believe that trading one rebuild/development asset for another is not rebuilding unless the asset gets younger. why?

you believe that the age gap strategy is not rebuilding. why?

you believe that re-signing a veteran career team veteran to a team that is showing signs of an emerging new core when there is no top pair d replacement yet is not consistent with rebuilding. why?

you believe your versions of facts for various canuck events (e.g., benning's stated options on the motte trade) are facts, despite contrary evidence, and you believe it so strongly you disregard the possibility people disagree with you). why?

i mean, put in the best light, your beliefs all seem like your personal extreme opinions masquerading as facts to me. i get that you don't like the strategies in question, but the idea they are objectively not rebuilding efforts seems to betray a certain overreach to me. benning is a trying to rebuild. if he fails you get to dance on his grave without the need to deny what he was trying to do. why the need to perceive reality through this absolutist prism?

1) I believe locking up 33 year old 4th liners long-term with bloated salaries is not part of a rebuild strategy. I'm really not sure why this needs to be explained. Rebuilding teams should be conserving cap space

2) Accumulating extra draft picks as a priority is one of the main ways to rebuild. Even your beloved Benning preaches building through the draft. This is how you do it. Why? Because it's cheaper. The more draft picks you get, the better your odds are of drafting a quality player. That quality player will have a 3 year ELC, plus be under team control for several years beyond that. Much cheaper than trying to sign someone on the open market.

3) Because generally when you're acquiring an older prospect from another team, the reason that team is giving away that prospect is because that prospect failed to develop the way they had hoped. I would rather draft and develop our own prospects than to piss away those draft picks on another team's failure.

4) Because the age gap is a myth.

5) Because the team isn't showing signs of improving. And the team lacks draft picks and depth of quality young prospects.

6) What contrary evidence? You haven't shown any contrary evidence. You can disagree with facts all you want, that just means you're wrong.

 

[krutovsdonut]

What does Gillis have anything to do with Benning failing 100% of the time in free agency?

Gillis signed a top pairing Dman in free agency. At a discount contract. He also traded for another top pairing Dman (giving up nothing for him). He signed 1st liners (Samuelson etc.) and core pieces (selke caliber centre) at bargain contracts.

Benning has signed an old 4th line winger at 6 million per. An AHL center for 3 million per. An unplayable depth forward for almost 2 million per.

In fact his best signing ever may be a 3rd line winger who is - currently - almost earning his middle-6 contract (3million long term) but begins his last season of the contract as a 32 year old. And even now, a savvy GM would sign this kind of depth player for around 1 million per.

not sure what free agency has to do with it. the op was talking about age gap.

i was comparing benning's lack of success with the age gap strategy to gillis' lack of success with drafting to point out first that the age gap jury is not quite out for benning, and also that the fates can be very fickle when dealing with low probability outcomes in a relatively small sample size.

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

not sure what free agency has to do with it. the op was talking about age gap.

i was comparing benning's lack of success with the age gap strategy to gillis' lack of success with drafting to point out first that the age gap jury is not quite out for benning, and also that the fates can be very fickle when dealing with low probability outcomes in a relatively small sample size.

Well the same "strategy" Benning is failing at with drafting, he is failing at with F.A.

And if you really want to compare their drafting, consider that Gillis had two picks in the top 20 his whole tenure. One is an impact player and the other was considered the best prospect in the world at one point.

Benning has had 4 picks in the single digits. So far, 1 of those 4 (Pettersson) is an impact player. Hughes has almost reached the recognition level that Hodgson reached, but it is too early to say how he'll pan out. That's 1 for 3 for top picks for Benning. All of those picks are higher than Gillis' only single digit pick (which he acquired from a shrewd trade - something unimaginable for Benning... Benning's golden asset, Kesler, was turned into Tanner Pearson).

And I think Gillis was poor-mediocre at drafting. While this is the one thing Benning is supposed to be great at.

Btw, the impact players on this team are Markstrom, Edler, Tanev, Petterson, Horvat, and Boeser. That's two Benning players, three Gillis player and one Nonis player. Benning is heading into his 6th draft with the team, having had 5 Free Agencies already. Two. Impact. Players.

 

[RebuildinVan]

Well the same "strategy" Benning is failing at with drafting, he is failing at with F.A.

And if you really want to compare their drafting, consider that Gillis had two picks in the top 20 his whole tenure. One is an impact player and the other was considered the best prospect in the world at one point.

Benning has had 4 picks in the single digits. So far, 1 of those 4 (Pettersson) is an impact player. Hughes has almost reached the recognition level that Hodgson reached, but it is too early to say how he'll pan out. That's 1 for 3 for top picks for Benning. All of those picks are higher than Gillis' only single digit pick (which he acquired from a shrewd trade - something unimaginable for Benning... Benning's golden asset, Kesler, was turned into Tanner Pearson).

And I think Gillis was poor-mediocre at drafting. While this is the one thing Benning is supposed to be great at.

Btw, the impact players on this team are Markstrom, Edler, Tanev, Petterson, Horvat, and Boeser. That's two Benning players, three Gillis player and one Nonis player. Benning is heading into his 6th draft with the team, having had 5 Free Agencies already. Two. Impact. Players.

Need a couple beer after reading this

 

[MS]

I think they sorta actually are trying to rebuild and have been since the 2017 trade deadline.

However, what a rebuild looks like with an imbecile like Jim Benning running the show isn’t good.

Benning has the patience and attention span of a small child and absolutely no ability to implement and execute a long-term plan. And every time a Stamkos or Tavares or Karlsson comes up he’s like a dog seeing a squirrel.

He also has no ability to negotiate to extract value for assets or even understand what assets he should be moving and gets absolutely bent over and reamed in every negotiation so the pick surplus you’d expect doesn’t happen. Plus he’s desperate to keep his job so takes age-gap junk instead of picks hoping that leads to results sooner but convincing himself that because they’re still youngish it’s still a rebuild-type move.

He’s shown on multiple occasions he doesn’t understand player value vs. cap hit and the concept of negative value assets (and has targeted and paid a premium for negative value assets on multiple occasions in the past) and when questioned didn’t understand the concept of receiving assets for taking bad contracts. So good luck at weaponizing cap space.

And he’s a weak, (mod) GM who is bullied by his veteran-loving coach into filling the roster with veterans rather than developing younger cheaper players. And because of his inability to negotiate gets bent over and reamed again here.

And, of course, has no ability to evaluate or understand how the sport of hockey is played in 2019.

Where @y2kcanucks goes wrong is giving them way too much credit by thinking they actively have a plan to not rebuild and are trying to make the playoffs. They do think they are rebuilding for the last 2 summers. They’re just too stupid, too weak, and too incompetent to know what a actual rebuild looks like or how to execute it. So we have this haphazard mess instead.

However, the silver lining is that because they’re so shockingly bad at identifying talent and building rosters, we end up at the bottom of the league even if rebuild is completely botched and get the high pick/elite prospect every year that is actually the biggest part of any rebuild.

 

[Wilch]

I think they sorta actually are trying to rebuild and have been since the 2017 trade deadline.

However, what a rebuild looks like with an imbecile like Jim Benning running the show isn’t good.

Benning has the patience and attention span of a small child and absolutely no ability to implement and execute a long-term plan. And every time a Stamkos or Tavares or Karlsson comes up he’s like a dog seeing a squirrel.

He also has no ability to negotiate to extract value for assets or even understand what assets he should be moving and gets absolutely bent over and reamed in every negotiation so the pick surplus you’d expect doesn’t happen. Plus he’s desperate to keep his job so takes age-gap junk instead of picks hoping that leads to results sooner but convincing himself that because they’re still youngish it’s still a rebuild-type move.

He’s shown on multiple occasions he doesn’t understand player value vs. cap hit and the concept of negative value assets (and has targeted and paid a premium for negative value assets on multiple occasions in the past) and when questioned didn’t understand the concept of receiving assets for taking bad contracts. So good luck at weaponizing cap space.

And he’s a weak, GM who is bullied by his veteran-loving coach into filling the roster with veterans rather than developing younger cheaper players. And because of his inability to negotiate gets bent over and reamed again here.

And, of course, has no ability to evaluate or understand how the sport of hockey is played in 2019.

Where @y2kcanucks goes wrong is giving them way too much credit by thinking they actively have a plan to not rebuild and are trying to make the playoffs. They do think they are rebuilding for the last 2 summers. They’re just too stupid, too weak, and too incompetent to know what a actual rebuild looks like or how to execute it. So we have this haphazard mess instead.

However, the silver lining is that because they’re so shockingly bad at identifying talent and building rosters, we end up at the bottom of the league even if rebuild is completely botched and get the high pick/elite prospect every year that is actually the biggest part of any rebuild.

Jimbo's family members on this board disapproves of this post.

 

[VancouverJagger]

There was this ridiculous fluke a couple years ago where it happened like 4 games in a row and it was just that - a fluke. A coin coming up heads 10 times straight. But the fanbase noticed and the TV broadcasters noticed and it became a thing. And then when it went back to happening once every 10 games or so - as is statistically normal - everyone would be screaming about it every time.

Nahhhhh - I don't agree at all with your revisionist theory.........Up until this season it wasn't just that he let in bad goals - he let bad goals in at bad times............He was probably better than around 10 other starters in the league.........maybe..........nice to see he's gotten his act together - at least this year - I need to see another year of this to truly believe it.

 

[mathonwy]

MS spitting hot fire.

 

[lawrence]

Let's not forget that a good 80%+ of HFCanucks advocated for Brayden Point with our 64th pick in the 2014 draft. We could have had a franchise altering draft that year.

Lol! Hindsight 2020.

 

[Cheeks Clapinski]

Lol! Hindsight 2020.

..?

These posters claimed they would have taken Point either before or immediately after the draft. You know, years before he started tearing up the NHL. That is literally the opposite of hindsight, it's foresight.

 

[Teflon Jim]

Well the same "strategy" Benning is failing at with drafting, he is failing at with F.A.

And if you really want to compare their drafting, consider that Gillis had two picks in the top 20 his whole tenure. One is an impact player and the other was considered the best prospect in the world at one point.

Benning has had 4 picks in the single digits. So far, 1 of those 4 (Pettersson) is an impact player. Hughes has almost reached the recognition level that Hodgson reached, but it is too early to say how he'll pan out. That's 1 for 3 for top picks for Benning. All of those picks are higher than Gillis' only single digit pick (which he acquired from a shrewd trade - something unimaginable for Benning... Benning's golden asset, Kesler, was turned into Tanner Pearson).

And I think Gillis was poor-mediocre at drafting. While this is the one thing Benning is supposed to be great at.

Btw, the impact players on this team are Markstrom, Edler, Tanev, Petterson, Horvat, and Boeser. That's two Benning players, three Gillis player and one Nonis player. Benning is heading into his 6th draft with the team, having had 5 Free Agencies already. Two. Impact. Players.

From what I remeber Gillis was fired before the 2014 draft and jb was sitting gm when Virtanen was drafted .
So .
1 Virtanen
2 Boeser
3 Joulevi
4 Pettersson
5 Hughes
Boeser Pettersson are elite and Hughes is dynamic at the very least.
Virtanen seems to be coming around but the jurys still out if he can take a step up to the next level.
We were told by jb shortly after oj was drafted that it could take three years for him and during his d+3 he was looking to take the comet team scoring lead before he got injured so clearly the promise is still there with oj.
When these players become waiver wire eligible then we should have a pretty good idea of what they are.
I think the jurys still out on all of them since we do have examples like Coho and Tanev who let us know who they were by the time the were waiver eligible.

 

[timw33]

Lol! Hindsight 2020.

How is it hindsight when those posts were made in the hours after the draft concluded?

 

[canuckfan75]

Do you guys know that Jim Benning has not been to Uitca all year long to see the team

 

[canuckfan75]

Botchford is saying that even though they own the Uitca Comets. it is very much run like a independent league. he saying that Trent Cull is doing what he wants .. Benning will tell him something and then it happens for a game or two. Then Cull is going back to how he wants to run the team

 

[canuckfan75]

Says they are not playing the young kids. Dahlen, Palmu and Rodin are examples of no growth. Lukas Jasek was off to a great start last year and now is playing on the 4th line.

 

[canuckfan75]

Lind and Gadjovich are both also struggling.

 

[YeahHeDid]

Where can we find a complete list of players that Benning has either traded for, or signed? I'd like to see the list since there is relatively few in his tenure that have worked out.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Where can we find a complete list of players that Benning has either traded for, or signed? I'd like to see the list since there is relatively few in his tenure that have worked out.

Jim Benning Era Transaction Summary

 

[RebuildinVan]

Lind and Gadjovich are both also struggling.

A Utica reporter was on the radio, Lind and Gadjovic are getting parked and scratched in favour of AHL vets. Coach Cull is in win now mode instead of developement mode. This organization is failing everywhere

 

[mathonwy]

Botchford is saying that even though they own the Uitca Comets. it is very much run like a independent league. he saying that Trent Cull is doing what he wants .. Benning will tell him something and then it happens for a game or two. Then Cull is going back to how he wants to run the team

It’s almost like Jimbo is not a real GM.

 

[Cancuks]

No one respects Benning. And can you blame them?

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Getting benched and scratched are a part of the development process. It’s their first year, they’ll figure it out.

 

[pomorick]

Getting benched and scratched are a part of the development process. It’s their first year, they’ll figure it out.

That is the development process of a losing franchise.