Premier League 2020-21 (Part III)

[SSF]

Sheffield United wont challenge Derby's record, United certainly has a better relative squad than that Derby team did.

 

[Savant]

Steve Bruce is a clown too. Most of his team has Covid and Newcastle voted against.

 

[Savant]

Melissa Reddy isnt exactly an unbiased journo either, we all know where she came from and who she is a fan of. Not exactly a shocker that she would support something that LFC supports.

as Evilo said, if someone was truly concerned about players getting injured, why not rotate the squad more and if 4 injuries(VVD, Milner, Thiago, Jota) severly effect your squad that much; you didnt build your squad right, especially as you knew before the transfer window closed what the compressed schedule was going to look like. I ruled out Gomez and Matip from that, they are perennial sick notes and counting on them to be healthy was not smart either.

Where is she lying though
Liverpool have rotated just as much as anyone else this season. They used their depth while they had it. The depth is now hurt though. Big difference going to a 12th man instead of a 20th man. The squad was build just fine. This was the best Liverpool squad going into a season in maybe the premier league era. Thiago and Virgil were not injured from being over played. Others were but it’s a trickle down. Are you supposed to sign six elite level CBs

 

[Savant]

I'm pretty sure even a clown is aware of how many players the club signed in the summer.

So he signed more than enough depth to accommodate five subs but he won’t use it. A clown.

 

[Havre]

Anyone saying she is "lying"?

I would like to hear what anyone not supporting Liverpool disagree with in Evilo's post.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

It's true that Liverpool also chose to go into the campaign with a half-broken Matip and their rotating cast of academy players, rather than strengthen. Neither Van Dijk or Gomez got muscular injuries that would have been affected by the subs rule. They knew their fixtures and this is where we're at.

Disingenuous to now act like they've been screwed by this rule. And that's leaving aside Klopp's rotation.

 

[Chimaera]

I get the uncertainty angle. Chaos does make it entertaining, but I don't think that has to be at the expense of some of these guys careers. I would also be interested in whether or not that is actually backed up by data. I don't know if 5 subs, during this pandemic season, makes a difference in whether or not the bottom half can compete. Last I checked, most of them are in the bottom half usually, and it won't make a massive difference this season. Fulham, West Brom, and others aren't magically better because Liverpool has 3 subs. They're still going to be the same crappy clubs that they were to begin with. Last year, with an equal playing field, you still had upsets happening. Maybe it makes the top more congested, because many of these clubs are going to be lucky or not as they go forward.

Note, I do think it isn't just the sub rule that's causing those problems. The push to do the full schedule, in less time, along with not having rest breaks, and making these guys go do international stuff as well is just as much of a problem.

But I still think the greater good is health, more so than getting more injuries.

 

[Savant]

Rory Smith has a good thread on this too.

There’s more if you click the link

 

[Chimaera]

It's true that Liverpool also chose to go into the campaign with a half-broken Matip and their rotating cast of academy players, rather than strengthen. Neither Van Dijk or Gomez got muscular injuries that would have been affected by the subs rule. They knew their fixtures and this is where we're at.

Disingenuous to now act like they've been screwed by this rule. And that's leaving aside Klopp's rotation.

I don't think the defensive crisis is directly related to the rule. I think the midfield crisis is more related, as most of those guys have been the ones with muscular issues. VVD's injury happens most likely not matter what, as it was a freak situation.

VVD and Gomez might not have gotten a muscular injury, but Gomez is certainly not out if not for the stupid international matches that meant NOTHING. It's also ridiculous to think they should have 5 top quality central defenders. Who else, but City does? They had VVD who played basically every minute since he got here, Gomez/Matip who did have injury concerns, and then Fabinho. That four, plus the kids is better than probably everyone's depth but maybe City. They did try and add a central defender according to some reports, but who worth much would sit the bench and look like they never would play?

You can't play for 3 of your top players at a position to go down. If that happens to any club, their season is in jeopardy.

 

[Havre]

10 clowns.

I'm not against 5 subs. But I really don't get why they need to go so many rounds on this. The case is pretty clear to me.

A) Why not bring this up before the season? (maybe they did, but if so the case should have been settled)
B) Why can't they respect their own rules? If you need 14 votes and you are not getting them - get on with it

As for this view that it is for player health. Clearly points are more important than player health for Klopp - so why wouldn't it be for Sheffield United as well?

 

[Savant]

10 clowns.

I'm not against 5 subs. But I really don't get why they need to go so many rounds on this. The case is pretty clear to me.

A) Why not bring this up before the season? (maybe they did, but if so the case should have been settled)
B) Why can't they respect their own rules? If you need 14 votes and you are not getting them - get on with it

As for this view that it is for player health. Clearly points are more important than player health for Klopp - so why wouldn't it be for Sheffield United as well?

A - they did.
B - because they are trying to do what’s right. There are just certain teams that don’t care about the data

 

[Savant]

I don't think the defensive crisis is directly related to the rule. I think the midfield crisis is more related, as most of those guys have been the ones with muscular issues. VVD's injury happens most likely not matter what, as it was a freak situation.

VVD and Gomez might not have gotten a muscular injury, but Gomez is certainly not out if not for the stupid international matches that meant NOTHING. It's also ridiculous to think they should have 5 top quality central defenders. Who else, but City does? They had VVD who played basically every minute since he got here, Gomez/Matip who did have injury concerns, and then Fabinho. That four, plus the kids is better than probably everyone's depth but maybe City. They did try and add a central defender according to some reports, but who worth much would sit the bench and look like they never would play?

You can't play for 3 of your top players at a position to go down. If that happens to any club, their season is in jeopardy.

Midfield crisis - Chamberlain was hurt in preseason and Thiago was hurt in a red card horror tackle. Not because they were over played. Keita wasn’t hurt because he was overplayed either, but he hasn’t proved he can stay healthy. Same with Shaqiri.
The only midfield that you can say was over played was James Milner, because he played too many minutes covering full back, because the backup left back that Liverpool signed was injured, not because he was
Overplayed, but because he wasn’t match fit from having Covid.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Even the midfield, Keita was born on crutches, Thiago got hurt on a horror tackle that has nothing to do with the issue, and Milner has barely played and picked up a muscle injury. Again not related.

Okay, Henderson got hurt. That's the reality of football. You can't automatically point to subs authoritatively because it fits and you're mad at the schedule.

And I do think you can point to their business on the back end. Hell, people on this board were doing it before the season. Everyone knew the schedule and fixture congestion, so if there was ever a time to bring in another player and rotate, it would have been now. Klopp and Liverpool chose not to.

 

[Savant]

Even the midfield, Keita was born on crutches, Thiago got hurt on a horror tackle that has nothing to do with the issue, and Milner has barely played and picked up a muscle injury. Again not related.

Okay, Henderson got hurt. That's the reality of football. You can't automatically point to subs authoritatively because it fits and you're mad at the schedule.

And I do think you can point to their business on the back end. Hell, people on this board were doing it before the season. Everyone knew the schedule and fixture congestion, so if there was ever a time to bring in another player and rotate, it would have been now. Klopp and Liverpool chose not to.

But who do they bring in? They already brought in Curtis Jones - who has been amazing but was also pretty far down the depth chart. He still has to win those games. He isn’t going to play Clarkson or Cain against Mourinho, and he shouldn’t.

 

[Chimaera]

Who has more than 4 central defenders of quality?

I mean, I felt they should look at making a move. But I also thought paying 35-40 for Ben White was stupid. Even the suggested fee for Kabak from Schalke at 25 looked kinda ridiculous. He also needs minutes, not sitting in the stands while VVD and Gomez played every match. Heck, if I'm Ben White, why in the world do I move to Liverpool to sit the bench and never play? Why not play for Brighton, who play good football, and move to a club I know I'm going to start at?

If I'm Liverpool, there's also a reality of knowing that you can't have a roster where you spent 20-25 million to sit in the stands.

Sure, there's some players they probably could've gotten for less, but I think the argument of whether or not they play is a hard one to discuss.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

But who do they bring in? They already brought in Curtis Jones - who has been amazing but was also pretty far down the depth chart. He still has to win those games. He isn’t going to play Clarkson or Cain against Mourinho, and he shouldn’t.

Come on guy, we've been through this! I don't care who he brings in. And if Klopp is looking at the schedule holistically and is that committed to the idea of five subs and the schedule being this omnipresent, vicious threat, then he should be able to identify fixtures where he can rotate players to keep them fresh and in the game for those matches he "can't" (read: doesn't want to). Sheffield United is one. Midtylland is another. And yet...

Any way you slice it, there are avenues Klopp/Liverpool could have gone and have simply chosen not to. I don't see any way around that conclusion.

I see the argument for five subs. I get it. But the fever pitch whine just doesn't comport with the actions.

 

[Evilo]

I get the uncertainty angle. Chaos does make it entertaining, but I don't think that has to be at the expense of some of these guys careers.

That's on the coaches. Not on a rule known by everyone.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Who has more than 4 central defenders of quality?

I mean, I felt they should look at making a move. But I also thought paying 35-40 for Ben White was stupid. Even the suggested fee for Kabak from Schalke at 25 looked kinda ridiculous. He also needs minutes, not sitting in the stands while VVD and Gomez played every match. Heck, if I'm Ben White, why in the world do I move to Liverpool to sit the bench and never play? Why not play for Brighton, who play good football, and move to a club I know I'm going to start at?

If I'm Liverpool, there's also a reality of knowing that you can't have a roster where you spent 20-25 million to sit in the stands.

Sure, there's some players they probably could've gotten for less, but I think the argument of whether or not they play is a hard one to discuss.

You keep saying "sit in the stands", but every complaint from Klopp is about how the schedule is killing everyone. So why would VVD and Gomez be playing every match? You'd think that would lead to the exceedingly simple conclusion of rotation, but maybe that part of his brain is switched off. Not to mention there's no contractual clause that says Joel Matip is third choice.

 

[Savant]

Come on guy, we've been through this! I don't care who he brings in. And if Klopp is looking at the schedule holistically and is that committed to the idea of five subs and the schedule being this omnipresent, vicious threat, then he should be able to identify fixtures where he can rotate players to keep them fresh and in the game for those matches he "can't" (read: doesn't want to). Sheffield United is one. Midtylland is another. And yet...

Any way you slice it, there are avenues Klopp/Liverpool could have gone and have simply chosen not to. I don't see any way around that conclusion.

I see the argument for five subs. I get it. But the fever pitch whine just doesn't comport with the actions.

He has done the bolded in the CL fixtures, 5 of 6 of which he used all five subs. Last weekend at Fulham tied 1-1 he took Salah and Trent off for Origi and Neco Williams. He has done it. You mention the Midtjylland game, which I am not going to defend his selection, but the players that that were injured were the ones that were rotated in. I would not have played Diogo Jota, but he was due to be played as he was rotated in the PL game the previous weekend.

people are latching onto the high profile games especially where the margin of error is thinnest as an example to use their subs; but I assure you that this has been happening, just not necessarily in the PL league. You still need to put eleven guys out.

 

[Evilo]

Oh and L1 has 5 subs and PSG has had more injuries than ever before.
Guess why?

Because Tuchel doesn't rotate.

 

[Savant]

You keep saying "sit in the stands", but every complaint from Klopp is about how the schedule is killing everyone. So why would VVD and Gomez be playing every match? You'd think that would lead to the exceedingly simple conclusion of rotation, but maybe that part of his brain is switched off. Not to mention there's no contractual clause that says Joel Matip is third choice.

I think you are missing a point dodging the question on who has more than 4 quality CBS. Which Liverpool level CB, unless they can cover at other positions (which may make them an ever rarer commodity) is going to come to Liverpool, or anywhere else and bet that everyone gets hurt. Last season Liverpool had plenty of CB injuries, but they weren’t all injured at the same time. Virgil is the one guy you historically can count on to not get hurt; and he was not injured from being overplayed. Everything else is a domino from that happening

 

[Savant]

Oh and L1 has 5 subs and PSG has had more injuries than ever before.
Guess why?

Because Tuchel doesn't rotate.

PSG is another team that lost a ton of depth due to injuries and the drop off from the first eleven to the third eleven is too big.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

I think you are missing a point dodging the question on who has more than 4 quality CBS. Which Liverpool level CB, unless they can cover at other positions (which may make them an ever rarer commodity) is going to come to Liverpool, or anywhere else and bet that everyone gets hurt. Last season Liverpool had plenty of CB injuries, but they weren’t all injured at the same time. Virgil is the one guy you historically can count on to not get hurt; and he was not injured from being overplayed. Everything else is a domino from that happening

Dude, you are the one missing the point here.

1) The schedule was known to all.

2) The substitution rules were known to all.

3) Jurgen Klopp has been on his soap box from day 1 about the schedule, injuries, and players being on the brink of total organ failure.

Why, given 1, 2, and 3 above, would Klopp's solution here not be squad rotation? Why would this hypothetical "Liverpool level CB" need to bet that everyone gets hurt? The playing time should be carved in stone given the conditions. And on top of that, the two names mooted above (Kabak and White), I almost guarantee you would make the move regardless of initial questions of playing time. Young players making that move, no doubt in my mind. The part of the equation that was missing this summer was will from Liverpool, not a lack of available targets. Jota made the move, and he was certainly not penciled in the XI with Mane and Salah playing every game.

 

[Blender]

Rory Smith has a good thread on this too.

There’s more if you click the link

"Klopp is a hypocrite" isn't an attempt to argue against 5 subs at all, that's a huge strawman.

I'm in favor of 5 subs, but Klopp has acted like a clown on this issue and continues to do so.

 

[Jussi]

They should try a new vote on 4 subs.