Premier League 2020-21 (Part III)

[Evilo]

PSG is another team that lost a ton of depth due to injuries and the drop off from the first eleven to the third eleven is too big.

And yet they had 5 subs.
So is the 3 subs responsible for the situation? Nope.
It's the coach's rotation.
HOWEVER, with that many injuries, PSG is still racking up victories (albeit not overly dominant) because they have more depth than anyone.

 

[Havre]

We talk about data. Not even sure how we would be able to tell much from the data. How much natural variance would one get when it comes to muscular injuries? This one can tell with some certainty of course. I have seen some numbers, but I have not seen any statistical analysis of it. Then you got other factors that are not related to fatigue due to playing to much. How much of that increase is caused by the shortened pre-season? Just as an example. I would love to see that analysis - so this is not me being sarcastic.

The next would be an analysis of the value of 5 subs. I have had some muscle injuries myself and I cannot say I have ever gotten one which I knew was coming. So it is not like I felt a bit tired 60 mins into the game and therefore asked to be subbed to avoid an injury. That might happen of course, I wouldn't know, but I do not believe that is how these normally come about. If that is true (or partly true) then the 5 subs rule would be more to control long term fatigue. Which is also something you can control with squad rotation. I struggle to see why this is seemingly so important for Liverpool and Liverpool fans. Not because I am against the rule, but to me Klopp and Liverpool are making far too much out of this.

 

[Savant]

"Klopp is a hypocrite" isn't an attempt to argue against 5 subs at all, that's a huge strawman.

I'm in favor of 5 subs, but Klopp has acted like a clown on this issue and continues to do so.

How has he acted poorly? He is advocating for a change that every other league has done.

 

[Blender]

How has he acted poorly? He is advocating for a change that every other league has done.

We have gone through this repeatedly. He's not even close to practicing what he is preaching, which means he has been hypocritical. You can't take someone seriously who says we is trying to protect his players but needs the league to permit 5 subs, while simultaneously not using the subs he has or rotating his squad.

 

[Savant]

We have gone through this repeatedly. He's not even close to practicing what he is preaching, which means he has been hypocritical. You can't take someone seriously who says we is trying to protect his players but needs the league to permit 5 subs, while simultaneously not using the subs he has or rotating his squad.

Except that he has. Which we have also been over. He has been rotating moreso in the Champions League games, which are also midweek. He used five subs in 5 out of the 6 group stage games. He took Salah and Trent out tied 1-1 at Fulham just last week for Origi and Neco Williams. But let’s just ignore that.

 

[East Coast Bias]

I do agree that having 5 subs let’s managers approach games tactically in a way 3 doesn’t. So there is the aspect there that it’s can completely change some matchups.

I think there’s only one way to solve this. No one knows how many subs are in each match. At half time, the VAR official spins a wheel that comes up either 3, 4, or 5 subs. There’s your answer. If you made 2 subs already before half hoping for 5? Tough shit.

 

[Chimaera]

Wait, why are other leagues, the CL and the Europa allowing 5 subs?

Isn't the gap between the haves and have nots in other leagues greater?

Why is it that the EPL is damaging their players?

 

[Chimaera]

And if VVD / Gomez were healthy, anyone they bought wasn't playing more than Cup games and a few CL matches here or there if everyone was fit.

Spending 30 million on Ben White (probably more) for that is stupid.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Except that he has. Which we have also been over. He has been rotating moreso in the Champions League games, which are also midweek. He used five subs in 5 out of the 6 group stage games. He took Salah and Trent out tied 1-1 at Fulham just last week for Origi and Neco Williams. But let’s just ignore that.

Rotating your squad and making all five subs in the CL is not remotely the same thing. There's a canyon wide difference between rotating your XI and deciding to make subs in the 70/75th minute.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

And if VVD / Gomez were healthy, anyone they bought wasn't playing more than Cup games and a few CL matches here or there if everyone was fit.

Spending 30 million on Ben White (probably more) for that is stupid.

Are you honestly still not understanding what's happening here?

 

[Evilo]

Wait, why are other leagues, the CL and the Europa allowing 5 subs?

Isn't the gap between the haves and have nots in other leagues greater?

Why is it that the EPL is damaging their players?

Because other leagues are stupid.

 

[Chimaera]

Are you honestly still not understanding what's happening here?

No, clearly, you aren't. I stated already that having 3 pretty good central defenders, and then Fabinho as cover was probably better than most other clubs they're competing against save for City.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

No, clearly, you aren't. I stated already that having 3 pretty good central defenders, and then Fabinho as cover was probably better than most other clubs they're competing against save for City.

Klopp has whined for months about the schedule and how it's killing players. And you're telling me that even if VVD and Gomez were healthy, they'd play every match outside of the Cups and "a few" CL matches? I seriously don't know how many times it has to be said, but you can't have it both ways. You and Klopp can't beat the substitution and schedule drum, while simultaneously saying they don't need to rotate. Pick one, because it can't be both.

And you lot are complaining up and down about how Fabinho filling in at CB is this loss in midfield, yet you refuse to divorce him from CB now? It's revisionist history to pretend Fabinho was also a plan for CB and not a stopgap move because they never brought in capable CB cover with a gimpy Matip.

 

[YNWA14]

I think Fabinho has been better at CB than he is in midfield, and with the Thiago acquisition I'm happy to keep him there. Not really related to the sub discussion, but just saying.

 

[Evilo]

Yeah Fabinho at MF.... lol.

 

[HoseEmDown]

He is a clown. His team has one point and his team is getting injured too. He can’t cry poor either. He added a relatively good amount of depth in the summer. Signed 8 players and loaned in Amapadu. He is a clown because his team would arguably be better off if they had more subs too. Now his guys are dropping like flies but he is sticking to his guns. Clown.

Have you really looked at their transfer business? Sure they brought in 8 buts its not like they added 8 new 1st team players to their squad from last season. They brought in Ramsdale because Henderson loan ended. Coulibaly was signed then loaned right out. Oliver Burke was a swap deal for Robinson. Foderingham is a backup keeper. So they brought in 4 outfield players, two of which are 20 year olds with one of them having health issues so not someone expected to be playing 90 minutes every game, the other was one more for the future. Their squad wasn't very deep last year and they still aren't very deep this year. So there's no reason why they would want 5 subs.

 

[Savant]

Have you really looked at their transfer business? Sure they brought in 8 buts its not like they added 8 new 1st team players to their squad from last season. They brought in Ramsdale because Henderson loan ended. Coulibaly was signed then loaned right out. Oliver Burke was a swap deal for Robinson. Foderingham is a backup keeper. So they brought in 4 outfield players, two of which are 20 year olds with one of them having health issues so not someone expected to be playing 90 minutes every game, the other was one more for the future. Their squad wasn't very deep last year and they still aren't very deep this year. So there's no reason why they would want 5 subs.

They should have bought better. Their transfer strategy was bad. He wouldn’t use the subs anyway. Am I doing this right? Four outfield players is 80 percent of the players they could have subbed and that doesn’t even account for the players they already had.

 

[HoseEmDown]

They should have bought better. Their transfer strategy was bad. He wouldn’t use the subs anyway. Am I doing this right? Four outfield players is 80 percent of the players they could have subbed and that doesn’t even account for the players they already had.

Who should they have bought instead? With their status and funds I'm not sure what you think they could have done differently? All the players they brought in, outside of the backup keeper, were 23 and under so they were buying a lot for the long term instead of immediate help. They finished 9th last season so they assumed the roster was good enough to stay up and they can add some young depth to eventually replace the aging squad. Of the 4 outfield players they brought in 2 of them played in the last game. One of them hasn't even been in the squad because he is 20 and not ready yet, the other missed the last two so might be banged up. Wilder has used his 3 subs almost every game i believe so you would think he may want a 4th or 5th but he doesn't. Klopp isn't using his 3 yet wants a 4th and 5th. If Sheffield can't get results with the starting 11 plus 3 subs I'm not sure bringing on a 34 year old Billy Sharp as a 4th sub is going to change anything or a 38 year old Phil Jagielka.

 

[Gecklund]

Who should they have bought instead? With their status and funds I'm not sure what you think they could have done differently? All the players they brought in, outside of the backup keeper, were 23 and under so they were buying a lot for the long term instead of immediate help. They finished 9th last season so they assumed the roster was good enough to stay up and they can add some young depth to eventually replace the aging squad. Of the 4 outfield players they brought in 2 of them played in the last game. One of them hasn't even been in the squad because he is 20 and not ready yet, the other missed the last two so might be banged up. Wilder has used his 3 subs almost every game i believe so you would think he may want a 4th or 5th but he doesn't. Klopp isn't using his 3 yet wants a 4th and 5th. If Sheffield can't get results with the starting 11 plus 3 subs I'm not sure bringing on a 34 year old Billy Sharp as a 4th sub is going to change anything or a 38 year old Phil Jagielka.

They got Sander Berge who was one of the top prospects and highly sought after.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

"Just a flu."

 

[hatterson]

Brutal. Hopefully they're able to recover and it doesn't completely derail their careers any more than it already has.

 

[YNWA14]

"Just a flu."

Sounds awful to go through. Dunno what the point of saying 'just a flu' is though. These types of cases are outliers, and happen with every virus and disease.

The Flu Killed a Healthy 21-Year-Old Man

 

[Evilo]

 

[spintheblackcircle]

 

[Havre]

Hopefully this section won't go into a full Covid-19 discussion as well. Just enjoy football as long as we got it - even though that was quite difficult on Sunday.