Possible trade and roster fixes for the Wings, Part IV

[The Zermanator]

From TSN Insider Trading:

Of all the names out there who could realistically be dealt by Wednesday's deadline, Ryan Kesler remains No. 1 on the most desired list. And while we're not sure if they're any closer to a deal, we now have a defined price. What is that?

Bob McKenzie: We also know he's got the No. 1 highest price on the trade market right now of anybody. And that defined price is three significant components. No. 1, a 20 to 25-year-old established National Hockey League centre, who could immediately step into the lineup and fill much of the void created by the loss of Kesler. No. 2, a top-end prospect. Preferably a forward, but if it was a defenceman it would give the Canucks flexibility to trade one of their existing defenceman down the road. And No. 3, a first-round pick. If the Vancouver Canucks don't get close to that package for Ryan Kesler, I do not believe they'll trade him. If they do get offers along those lines they are going to seriously consider it.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=445171

Uber pass.

 

[Vladdy84]

From TSN Insider Trading:



http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=445171

Uber pass.

Pass yo.

That would be basically

1st, Helm, and one of Jurco/Jarnkrok/Mantha

 

[YostisHome]

I think the Canucks are in for a rude awakening when they pick up the phone.

 

[The Zermanator]

Pass yo.

That would be basically

1st, Helm, and one of Jurco/Jarnkrok/Mantha

That probably doesn't even do it. Dreger was speculating the asking price from Toronto would be Kadri, Gardiner or Reilly and their 1st.

I think the Canucks are in for a rude awakening when they pick up the phone.

Yeah, he's probably not going to be moved if that's Gillis' position.

 

[SoupNazi]

I think the Canucks are in for a rude awakening when they pick up the phone.

I agree. I think they end up keeping Kesler.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I think the Canucks are in for a rude awakening when they pick up the phone.

Agreed it seems like, That there not even close to the asking price that Gillis wants.

 

[Konnan511]

Pass yo.

That would be basically

1st, Helm, and one of Jurco/Jarnkrok/Mantha

Sounds like they'd want more than Helm, they want a guy who could basically fill the void left by Kesler, a prospect who might turn out to be as good as Kesler, and a first rounder. I know it says center, so I'm assuming they'd want Sheahan (but since he is not as offensively close to Kesler) they would also want Jurco/Tatar + Mantha/Pulu/Hook + 1st rounder.

I would not make that trade. I'd send them Tatar+Ferraro+Cally+Sproul+1st rounder+Helm for him. If they wanted that one more extra piece I'd throw in a third and possibly A2.

 

[Filppula]

I'd send them Tatar+Ferraro+Cally+Sproul+1st rounder+Helm for him. If they wanted that one more extra piece I'd throw in a third and possibly A2.

Ummm what the??

 

[Detroit Sports*]

this is an actual serious post, ladies and gentlemen

wow

Cap hit and injury prone. He is the better player they can have Franzen instead.

 

[Crymson]

Uber pass.

Typical Gillis. Announces that he wants to trade a player, asks for far too much, then ends up keeping said player, who understandably ends up disgruntled from the process.

Pass yo.

That would be basically

1st, Helm, and one of Jurco/Jarnkrok/Mantha

More than Helm. Helm is still recovering from injury and could not immediately step in to fill the void, nor is he capable of producing much offense. The Wings don't have anyone who fits the bill in question.

I think the Canucks are in for a rude awakening when they pick up the phone.

As usual for Gillis. Is he really trying to save his job this way?

I agree. I think they end up keeping Kesler.

Yep.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Sounds like they'd want more than Helm, they want a guy who could basically fill the void left by Kesler, a prospect who might turn out to be as good as Kesler, and a first rounder. I know it says center, so I'm assuming they'd want Sheahan (but since he is not as offensively close to Kesler) they would also want Jurco/Tatar + Mantha/Pulu/Hook + 1st rounder.

I would not make that trade. I'd send them Tatar+Ferraro+Cally+Sproul+1st rounder+Helm for him. If they wanted that one more extra piece I'd throw in a third and possibly A2.

Ken Holland should be fired If he made this deal. Tatar + Ferraro + Cally + Sproul + 1st rounder + Helm that's way to many pieces to give up.

 

[WesNichols14]

I'd send them Tatar+Ferraro+Cally+Sproul+1st rounder+Helm for him. If they wanted that one more extra piece I'd throw in a third and possibly A2.

for just Kesler!? are you forgetting he is not 25. hell he is a UFA in 2 years. It sounds like he would like to be a Wing at some point. so let some team like Ottawa overpay for him now see how he does and when he hits free agency pay him what he's worth. or trade the 3rd or whatever for his rights before the draft. for now lets see what we have in Jarnkrok and if Weiss and get it back together.

if Weiss fails next year we will know for sure he has lost it. so buy him out, leaving kesler a spot as a 2nd line C. now if we could deal Weiss + Janmark or Marchenko and a conditional 1st if we end up picking after 20, and our 2nd and 4th if we pick before 20 it would be worth it to me as we would be out of a longer deal with Weiss for the same basic cap, relieve some of the stress of having to many great D prospects that we would lose at least 2 no matter what. and not lose out on any great pick unless Kesler helped us make the playoffs and look competitive. I would also be willing to change Marchenko into Kindl and Callahan.

so just to make this look cleaner,

To Detroit
Ryan Kesler

To Vancouver
Steven Weiss
one of these options -> Marchenko/ Janmark/ or Kindl and Callahan
Conditional 1st (if we pick after 20)(if we pick before 20 they get a 2nd and a 4th)

 

[Konnan511]

Ummm what the??

29 native hockey player who plays elite defense and has very good offensive skills.

Giving up Tatar which hurts, but Kesler is the superior player now and in the future.

Sproul hurts, but we already have a handful of defensemen who are better than him.

Cally and Lando won't be anything more than 12-14 forwards, but will provide some nice energy.

We all love Helm, but he is a bottom six player, when everyone is healthy he is a fourth liner.

The picks and A2 are possible throw in to put the deal over the top.

You have to give value to get value.

 

[sarcastro]

I agree. I think they end up keeping Kesler.

From the sound of things, Pittsburgh is willing to pay the price and has the pieces. I'd bet on them getting him.

Sounds like they'd want more than Helm, they want a guy who could basically fill the void left by Kesler, a prospect who might turn out to be as good as Kesler, and a first rounder. I know it says center, so I'm assuming they'd want Sheahan (but since he is not as offensively close to Kesler) they would also want Jurco/Tatar + Mantha/Pulu/Hook + 1st rounder.

I would not make that trade. I'd send them Tatar+Ferraro+Cally+Sproul+1st rounder+Helm for him. If they wanted that one more extra piece I'd throw in a third and possibly A2.

These prices are not worth two+ years of Kesler. I'm glad the Wings aren't willing to pay them. I'm not going after you specifically, but I want to run down the kinds of things we're talking about here.

You're saying you would send away a really, really good 3rd center, signed for the same term as Kesler for less than half the price.

You'd also be willing to give up at least 3 cheap years of Tatar, who is a good top 6 scoring winger right now and could be an outstanding one by the time those 3 years are over.

You'd also be willing to give up Sproul and Jarnkrok, who are still prospects and might not cut it but if they do, that's 5-7 years of cheap control each for two more young players.

You'd also be willing to give up a first round pick. The Wings may still miss the playoffs, so that pick could be the 1st overall pick. Even if they make the playoffs, let's remember that they got Mantha with a similar pick last year. The player you get there, theoretically, could provide another 5-7 years of cheap control, and could be as good or better than Kesler ever was.

The rest of those pieces (Ferraro, Almquist, mid-late picks) don't really have any trade value, so we'll just skip them in this little exercise.

So, to sum up - I repeat, these prices are absolutely insane. Many of these Wings that are being discussed are not longshots or picks or lottery tickets - they're legit NHL producers right now. Kesler is not a franchise player. He's not 21 years old on a cheap rookie contract, or with many years of control left. He gets injured a lot. He plays like a cheap little ****. He's whining his way out of Vancouver. He went to Ohio State.

Why would any team want to give up their whole future for two+ years of this guy? I don't get it. I'd totally understand trading one of the big prospects or young forwards for Ehrhoff, since he is under contract for 7 more years at a cheap cap hit. We can only hope to get 7 good cheap years out of each of those kids. Makes at least a little sense. All those assets for two+ years of expensive, always-injured rat Kesler? Unwise IMO.

 

[Konnan511]

To Detroit
Ryan Kesler

To Vancouver
Steven Weiss
one of these options -> Marchenko/ Janmark/ or Kindl and Callahan
Conditional 1st (if we pick after 20)(if we pick before 20 they get a 2nd and a 4th)

That would never get it done. Holland would get laughed at. So you propose we dump our garbage and add in Marchy or Janmark to land an Olympic Selke winner who puts up between 60-80 points a season who is under contract past this season and still has ten years left. You have to give value to get value.

 

[Konnan511]

From the sound of things, Pittsburgh is willing to pay the price and has the pieces. I'd bet on them getting him.



These prices are not worth two+ years of Kesler. I'm glad the Wings aren't willing to pay them. I'm not going after you specifically, but I want to run down the kinds of things we're talking about here.

You're saying you would send away a really, really good 3rd center, signed for the same term as Kesler for less than half the price.

You'd also be willing to give up at least 3 cheap years of Tatar, who is a good top 6 scoring winger right now and could be an outstanding one by the time those 3 years are over.

You'd also be willing to give up Sproul and Jarnkrok, who are still prospects and might not cut it but if they do, that's 5-7 years of cheap control each for two more young players.

You'd also be willing to give up a first round pick. The Wings may still miss the playoffs, so that pick could be the 1st overall pick. Even if they make the playoffs, let's remember that they got Mantha with a similar pick last year. The player you get there, theoretically, could provide another 5-7 years of cheap control, and could be as good or better than Kesler ever was.

The rest of those pieces (Ferraro, Almquist, mid-late picks) don't really have any trade value, so we'll just skip them in this little exercise.

So, to sum up - I repeat, these prices are absolutely insane. Many of these Wings that are being discussed are not longshots or picks or lottery tickets - they're legit NHL producers right now. Kesler is not a franchise player. He's not 21 years old on a cheap rookie contract, or with many years of control left. He gets injured a lot. He plays like a cheap little ****. He's whining his way out of Vancouver. He went to Ohio State.

Why would any team want to give up their whole future for two+ years of this guy? I don't get it. I'd totally understand trading one of the big prospects or young forwards for Ehrhoff, since he is under contract for 7 more years at a cheap cap hit. We can only hope to get 7 good cheap years out of each of those kids. Makes at least a little sense. All those assets for two+ years of expensive, always-injured rat Kesler? Unwise IMO.

Cally = Callahan, Calle = Calle Jarnkrok.

 

[detredWINgs]

I love that they want a 20-25 year old center who "can fill the void left by Kesler." Why the **** would anyone trade a guy who is at least 5 years younger if he is capable of filling Kesler's shoes to any extent plus a first plus a top prospect.

 

[ricky0034]

That would never get it done. Holland would get laughed at. So you propose we dump our garbage and add in Marchy or Janmark to land an Olympic Selke winner who puts up between 60-80 points a season who is under contract past this season and still has ten years left. You have to give value to get value.

in what universe does Kesler put up between 60-80 points a season?

he never even put up 80 points at his peak let alone now

over the past 3 years he's played at a 53 point pace

and there's no way he has ten years left the way he plays

 

[sarcastro]

Cally = Callahan, Calle = Calle Jarnkrok.

Ok then, so put him in the "no trade value" category. Still way too many years of too many good players going the other way IMO.

 

[drw02]

Think it's in this teams best interest to stand pat. Price is too steep for all the available big names and they all come with no guarantee we would even make the playoffs. The future of this team is bright no sense in breaking up this group of young players. I'd be happy making a small deal for a rental D-man like Derek Morris or Robidas for a mid round pick. Just not worth it for us to get involved in these high stakes deals given our current standing. I'll be surprised (and mad) if any of Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan, Mantha, Jarnkrok, or Pulkkinen are moved.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

If we could get a trade done without giving up the guys you are talking about it I'm pretty confident we would have done it by now. Think the hang up is teams are set on trying to get one of the guys Holland won't let go. And for once, I don't blame him.

Which is pretty much exactly what I said. I'd dangle some form and combo of Pulkkinen, Marchenko/Backman/XO, 2nd rounder to see if there was any bites for a player like Ehrhoff. If they wanted one of the pieces that I view as untouchable, then thanks for the time.

Because Tatar has more value and might actually got a trade done. It's not because people want to get rid of him.

No, there are literally people who view Pulkkinen > Tatar as a future Red Wing. Nothing to do with value in the cases I'm referring to.

Pulk is doing great in GR and has that thing we need and love. A booming righty shot. Would love to have both, but in terms of need, feel like we need Pulk more.

I disagree. To being with, Tatar is already proven to be a NHL player, Pulkkinen has not. There's several cases of guys excelling in the AHL, but not the NHL. I have questions regarding Pulkkinen's transition even with his current hot streak.

But the biggest factor to me is that Tatar can create more individually. He doesn't necessarily need certain players around him to create energy and chances. My perspective on Pulkkinen in the NHL is that he's going to need the right pieces around him. You can't stick him with Drew Miller and Joakim Andersson and expect the energy and chances that Tatar showed in his stint last season.

Tatar has the potential to become a dangerous top 6 winger, but he's basically already proven to be a dangerous bottom 6 winger. We seen what a lack of depth scoring looks like earlier this season when only 13 and 40 could produce. Tatar changes that.

 

[KJoe88]

in what universe does Kesler put up between 60-80 points a season?

he never even put up 80 points at his peak let alone now

over the past 3 years he's played at a 53 point pace

and there's no way he has ten years left the way he plays

He put up back to back 70P + seasons three years ago while playing excellent two-way hockey.

Yes, that was through 2009-2011, but he still did it while playing behind the Sedins (he sometimes played with them on the wing, though).

 

[WesNichols14]

That would never get it done. Holland would get laughed at. So you propose we dump our garbage and add in Marchy or Janmark to land an Olympic Selke winner who puts up between 60-80 points a season who is under contract past this season and still has ten years left. You have to give value to get value.

Weiss isn't a garbage dump he's a 2nd line center when healthy (proven fact)

Kesler has never hit 80 points so he is not a 60 to 80 point player. he is a 45-75 point player. (in his career 9 years not including this one he has 6 seasons under 50 points and 2 above 70)

Weiss is a 40 to 60 point player when healthy.

both have proven to be injury prone recently so thats a fair trade off

the other 5-15 point difference is made up for the fact that they get a good draft pick and a good prospect.

if they want an NHL player that can take his place in the line up Weiss can do that once healthy. if they want a legit prospect Marchenko/Janmark are that, and Kindl could blossom in a new scenery and Callahan has real value in a prospect pool that is not as deep as ours. some us us forget our #9 prospect could be someone else's #3.
and a guy with 21 goals so far this year in the AHL and plays a heavy 2 way game has real value.

 

[The Zermanator]

Weiss isn't a garbage dump he's a 2nd line center when healthy (proven fact)

Kesler has never hit 80 points so he is not a 60 to 80 point player. he is a 45-75 point player. (in his career 9 years not including this one he has 6 seasons under 50 points and 2 above 70)

Weiss is a 40 to 60 point player when healthy.

both have proven to be injury prone recently so thats a fair trade off

the other 5-15 point difference is made up for the fact that they get a good draft pick and a good prospect.

if they want an NHL player that can take his place in the line up Weiss can do that once healthy. if they want a legit prospect Marchenko/Janmark are that, and Kindl could blossom in a new scenery and Callahan has real value in a prospect pool that is not as deep as ours. some us us forget our #9 prospect could be someone else's #3.
and a guy with 21 goals so far this year in the AHL and plays a heavy 2 way game has real value.

Then why pay the price to acquire Kesler?

 

[WesNichols14]

Then why pay the price to acquire Kesler?

for me personally I like Kesler more, met him once and he was really cool to me and my brother. he even gave him a stick when he said it looked neat. (my brother was only 7 at the time)

I also am not a huge fan of the term on Weiss's contract but thats what you have to do in UFA. by trading Weiss we have 2 less years on a contract with money that could go to resigning Nyquist or Mantha to a long term deal.

it also helps unclog our defensive prospect pipe line. right now we have 7 prospects that all look like at the very least top 5 D's and most look like top 4. we're going to lose a few no matter what might as well get a small upgrade at center for now. clear up some space in the future, so Jarnkrok to have a top 6 role.

and its always nice to have Michigan boys in a Wings uniform.

but like I said in my original post. I wouldn't go out of my way to overpay for him. when if he wants to be a Wing (and it sound's like he might) just wait 2 years and offer him what he's worth at that point. without losing assets.