Pochettino Out, Mourinho In

[Corto]

See the edit and then think

I'm not getting into this silly debate.
Pep is one of the greatest managers of all time. So is Mou. Klopp, while flavor of the moment, has quite a way to go to get there.

But it's also true that Pep's only managed THE biggest spenders in the league. Barca, Bayern, City, all spent entirely stupid amounts of money compared to their competition.
Doesn't make him a "coward" or whatever, if you're one of the biggest managers out there, you go to the biggest clubs.

But, he never did a "Porto" like Mourinho, partly because he didn't have to, and partly because his football literally requires absolutely world class players to work.

Klopp did an amazing job with BVB and is doing an amazing job with Liverpool. They looked dead in the water when he took over. We (West Ham) beat them 3 times that season ffs (two of the wins were with Klopp already there).
He went for targeted buys, didn't stockpile 4 fullbacks like Pep, and all his buys were exceptional apart from possibly Keita, and the turnout that Liverpool has had with him at the helm is absolutely amazing.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Doesn't want to get into a silly debate proceeds to post wall of text... I have praised Klopp here multiple times big fan of his doesn't mean what I posted isn't true.

Why I laughed at your bringing up Porto for instance because it was 16 years ago. Hell it was sooo long ago that iPhones weren't even a thing. So, you bringing it up was rather pointless.

 

[Ceremony]

... Should he take Crystal Palace on like in Fifa or FM? Name a manager that won without spending stupid money?

The Heart of Midlothian job is available

 

[les Habs]

I'm not getting into this silly debate.
Pep is one of the greatest managers of all time. So is Mou. Klopp, while flavor of the moment, has quite a way to go to get there.

But it's also true that Pep's only managed THE biggest spenders in the league. Barca, Bayern, City, all spent entirely stupid amounts of money compared to their competition.
Doesn't make him a "coward" or whatever, if you're one of the biggest managers out there, you go to the biggest clubs.

But, he never did a "Porto" like Mourinho, partly because he didn't have to, and partly because his football literally requires absolutely world class players to work.

Klopp did an amazing job with BVB and is doing an amazing job with Liverpool. They looked dead in the water when he took over. We (West Ham) beat them 3 times that season ffs (two of the wins were with Klopp already there).
He went for targeted buys, didn't stockpile 4 fullbacks like Pep, and all his buys were exceptional apart from possibly Keita, and the turnout that Liverpool has had with him at the helm is absolutely amazing.

Correction time yet again.

Assuming Barça were the biggest spenders in the league at the time Pep was at the helm, something I would say is probably largely incorrect, the fact of the matter is that Madrid at the time had the more expensive side which is what one should be looking at in the first place. Bayern are usually the biggest spenders and if they're not they usually have the most expensively assembled squad in their league. City much like Chelsea during Mourinho's tenure.

Since you keep referencing Porto I'll continue to put it into context. Porto, of the Portuguese league where they were linked with major corruption with officials and who won the CL during one of the weaker CL seasons.

So when Klopp buys a player it's targeted but when Pep does it's stockpiling. This is of course assuming the managers are making these buying decisions which is very likely not the case in some instances.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Pep did more or less stumble upon Messi, Xavi and Iniesta there. Without taking away all credit from Pep, its undeniable hes never done a rebuild in any real sense without being able to purchase whoever the hell he felt he needed. That doesn’t mean theres no merit to it as you can certainly mess up even with all those resources, but there is little evidence to support that if Pep joined a club on the lower end of the table hed be more likely to lead them to the top than any other manager.

 

[Stray Wasp]

@Stray Wasp

I guess we agree that you Levy post was pretty $&$^÷^$ then as you argue you are well balanced in your opinions and it is my "straw man" argumentation that is the main issue.

We don't disagree on everything, but I wish you had spent some of the energy you are now spending writing your initial Levy post. That was the one I reacted to. Some of the rest is quite interesting to discuss, but also quite off topic.

Wow, to the strawmen are added putting words in my mouth. If you think your evasive, dishonest posts in our exchange are something to be proud of, I'll consider your assessment of my earlier post as 'shit' a badge of honour.

I wish even now you weren't so embarrassingly unable to countenance criticism of Levy. I hope he's paying you for your attempt to perform PR services, but I fear it's mere Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[Havre]

Mourinho's press conference is about the most enjoyment I have gotten out of football since 2017.

Please let us keep that Mourinho for a couple of years.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Press conference>making a final?

 

[Havre]

There was probably a moment against Ajax I felt slightly better

And that period was solid for other reasons as well. It was a time when Spurs were actually competitive against Brighton.

Anyway - it was refreshing not listening to Pochettino moaning. Then again I am certain the next press conference from Pochettino won´t be him moaning either. I have no illusions with Mourinho, but I have never felt so numb when it comes to football as to the last year with Pochettino (the CL run was more or less a random run - played well against City and not bad in the final - the rest was certainly nothing special in terms of performances).

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I still back Daniel Levy to a very large degree and I think most sensible Spurs supporters still do. His transfer business can be frustrating, but not all bad. In all the other aspects of his job as chairman he deserves top marks.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Just finished watching the press conference. Absolutely loved it.

 

[Bures Elbow]

This will either cement Mourinho's fading into the twilight as a top quality coach, or signal his resurgence.

 

[Havre]

I still back Daniel Levy to a very large degree and I think most sensible Spurs supporters still do. His transfer business can be frustrating, but not all bad. In all the other aspects of his job as chairman he deserves top marks.

I guess you missed Stray Wasps' fox news inspired ("fair and balanced") summary of Levy's tenure then.

But I agree. When ever the topic comes up among people I know or I come across at games more or less exclusively see Levy somewhere between good and excellent. Not that case 10-15 years ago, but it has slowly changed.

No wonder of course. He has a PR machine so solid he has even at least two posters on what is mainly a hockey forum arguing his case. Just imagine how many he has doing his bidding on more football focused boards.

 

[Corto]

Regarding Levy... I think success just came too fast for the Spurs (and Levy) to follow it all up.

What I mean is... Levy took over when the Spurs were knee deep in mediocrity.
They slowly begun the climb and it sort of peaked with the Modric-Bale team (I was following them at the time because of Modric/Corluka/Kranjcar), a good-but-not-great team which sort of fizzled out when Modric and Bale left and when they lucked out and didn't go into the CL despite finishing 4th (Chelsea did as they won the CL that season).

After that, Harry went, Ramos took over IIRC and their ascend stopped, it looked like they were heading for mediocrity yet again.

Then they got Poch and the success just came too fast. Everything seemed set for this long term plan of developing players from their academy, spending all this money on the stadium and infrastructure, it seems almost as if the payoff (Spurs becoming a tier 1 club) should've been in another 2-3 years.
Instead, Poch had them finishing top-4 every year, they became the only real threat to City and Liverpool, had a magical run in the CL (last minute drama vs both City and Ajax, etc etc.).
But to me, it feels almost as Levy wasn't expecting it.
From my POV, it's like he wasn't ready to back up a world class team with world class salaries, at least not at the time. All the money went into the stadium and maybe now they'll spend more again - but this time they'll have to rely on Mourinho getting the players to buy into the project all over again.

I give him credit (Levy) as Spurs are now miles above where they were when he took over. They are now legitimately a top team and a lot of top players would jump at the chance to play for them.
But at the same time, though I'm not sure how much of it is/was his fault, it's almost like they have been bereft of ideas of what to do once they reached this high level.
The CL run hid the fact that they've been chugging at relegation pace for nearly a year now.

 

[Havre]

Timeline is wrong. Ramos was much earlier.

Hoddle - made sense. Solid reputation as a manager. Obviously a Spurs hero. Easy decision to hire.
Santini - hyped after France. I don't mind the hiring, but complete disaster. Sacked quickly so no big issue.
Jol - was Santini's assistant. Took over. Did brilliantly for a long time. If anyone deserves to be recognized as the manager that took Spurs from mediocrity to being "CL-material" it is Jol. Spurs had about 10 years of ending up around 10-14th in the league before Jol. Food poisoning before the last game against West Ham that one year might very well have been the reason for them losing out on the CL. Then it all imploded and Levy might very well take a lot of the blame there. Jol was like Pochettino very much liked by most fans and seemingly by the players as well. Unfortunately Comolli as a DoF didn't work well with Jol. I think Comolli brought in many good individual players, but we had some absurd games where Prine-Boateng was playing as a DM etc.
Ramos - won the league cup, but generally speaking mostly a mess. I think history have shown that Ramos wasn't as good as his Sevilla-record suggested. I didn't mind the hiring though. Based on Sevilla that was a great hiring by Levy.
Redknapp - so after two seasons of mess with Jol and Ramos Redknapp brought Spurs back to the top 6. Which they have been since 09/10. Two top 4 finishes, but obviously Spurs missed out on CL due to the old rule with max 4 teams from one league.
AVB - Did well mainly because Bale was unplayable that one season. Very similar to Suarez that one year for Liverpool. I always rated Modric in general higher than Bale, but Bale completely carried that team hardly any Spurs-player have done before him. Ginola was a bit similar, but he carried a crap team to be average. Bale made an average team very good.
Sherwood - not much to say. Both AVB and him got sacked because expectations were now higher. 5 and 6th wasn't necessarily good enough.
Pochettino - if he had finished this year he would have had 4 out of 6 seasons (most likely) in the top 4. Really only that one season in 16/17 that stands out as significantly better than what Jol, Redknapp, AVB and Sherwood did before him.

I wouldn't say it came too fast. Several years in a row Spurs ended up above Liverpool, but it is not like Liverpool imploded because of their success. Since 05/06 Spurs have been in the top 4 discussion with a couple of hick-ups. Pochettino took it one step further - I absolutely agree to that, but it is not like there wasn't a solid foundation there. You need a bit of luck as well. Ferguson talked about that many times. Solid teams are solid teams, but to win the CL for example you also need a bit of special talent. Finding that special talent is difficult. For Spurs that was Modric and Bale. For Pochettino he got a lot out of Kane and Alli for some time. Not saying Pochettino shouldn't get some credit for that, but even Ferguson couldn't make any team the best - he also needed rare talents like Ronaldo and many others to go from very good to winning the big titles. Had Spurs bought Salah instead of Liverpool do anyone believe Klopp would have been as successful? That is not criticism of Klopp, but you need a bit of luck to go along with being a good manager.

 

[Corto]

I wouldn't say it came too fast. Several years in a row Spurs ended up above Liverpool, but it is not like Liverpool imploded because of their success. Since 05/06 Spurs have been in the top 4 discussion with a couple of hick-ups. Pochettino took it one step further - I absolutely agree to that, but it is not like there wasn't a solid foundation there. You need a bit of luck as well. Ferguson talked about that many times. Solid teams are solid teams, but to win the CL for example you also need a bit of special talent. Finding that special talent is difficult. For Spurs that was Modric and Bale. For Pochettino he got a lot out of Kane and Alli for some time. Not saying Pochettino shouldn't get some credit for that, but even Ferguson couldn't make any team the best - he also needed rare talents like Ronaldo and many others to go from very good to winning the big titles. Had Spurs bought Salah instead of Liverpool do anyone believe Klopp would have been as successful? That is not criticism of Klopp, but you need a bit of luck to go along with being a good manager.

I didn't look anything up, so yeah, order of managers might be a bit wrong, but Harry leaving was correct and the apparent sinking back into mediocrity was looking likely until Poch came along.

Klopp... Would he be as successful without Salah etc.? I dunno, but the thing is he and his team are really good at identifying the players they want and need (VVD aside, everyone wanted him), but he went for Mane, Salah, Fabinho (who btw looked like a bust for half a season before settling in and playing world class football), Robertson, etc.
His recruitment is absolutely a huge part of what makes Klopp Klopp, and while I guess he was lucky in how some of his buys turned out, he didn't buy 4 fullbacks like Pep and play a numbers game, he goes for that one target and usually it works out great.

Very similar to Poch, Klopp came in and Liverpool was looking like they were heading for mediocrity (lost Sterling and Suarez, rest were having a bad season - I loved it, we beat that 3 times, including a 3-0 win away at Anfield), and it really did look bleak for them.
4 years later they are not only the European Champions, but looking in prime position to win the EPL and very much in contention to defend their CL title.

IMO what Poch and Klopp have done made these clubs jump a tier, from playing second (or third) fiddle to the best clubs, to being absolutely in that highest tier of clubs out there.

 

[Havre]

I would say Spurs were sinking back to anything. AVB's second season I would argue was very similar to this year with Pochettino. Very slow and boring, but with more points. Liverpool had more ups and downs in that period than Spurs.

Of course Klopp would be successful without Salah, but how successful? Ferguson was an amazing manager, but it wasn't like they dominated Europe year after year. The same way it isn't like Klopp will forever find replacements for Salah etc. regardless of how good he is. Ferguson again an excellent example. He brought in some amazing players, but he also fail on some big signings. Wenger another. You can only bring in so many superstars - if they don't live up to their expectations then you can't just replace them short term.

I guess it becomes a semantic decision if you consider what Pochettino did "jump a tier" or take another step. I prefer the latter as there was no revolution at Spurs under Pochettino (even if Sky have been pushing that hard due to Neville clearly being in love with the man - somewhat the same from Carragher). For me Pochettino did better than Jol and Redknapp, but I wouldn't compare him to Klopp. Klopp is another step ahead again. Pochettino was ahead in 2017, but it fizzled out while Klopp continued with the improvement of the team.

 

[bluesfan94]

... Should he take Crystal Palace on like in Fifa or FM? Name a manager that won without spending stupid money?

Ten Hag

 

[spintheblackcircle]

I am more nervous for West Ham-Spurs than I am for Penn St-tOSU.

COYS!!!!! (Totally bought in)

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Ten Hag

Whaat did he win exactly?

 

[The Abusement Park]

Whaat did he win exactly?

Our hearts.

 

[bluesfan94]

Whaat did he win exactly?

More than Poch is the snarky answer. He took a Eredivisie team to the semis. That's pretty impressive.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

More than Poch is the snarky answer. He took a Eredivisie team to the semis. That's pretty impressive.

Awesome but that post was relating to pep sooo?

 

[bluesfan94]

Awesome but that post was relating to pep sooo?

So he still has won a lot without spending. He's gotten further in the CL during his time at Ajax than Pep has at Man City.

The snark was just for fun.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

So he still has won a lot without spending. He's gotten further in the CL during his time at Ajax than Pep has at Man City.

The snark was just for fun.

But what did he win?
Pellegrini took Malaga just as far. Did better in that competition with Malaga than he did with city. It’s an anomaly