Playoff Race Thread

[JT AM da real deal]

Don't agree about keeping Marleau but it certainly could have been handled better.

Yes for sure giving up a 1st rounder was super steep ... thanks again Babs. and thank god we don't have to hear the good man good pro thing all year. ya know it teaches the kids how hard they have to work when they see what Marleau has to do to be ready to play with the ice baths between periods etc etc. All they saw was a HOFer guy who took us for a ton of $$$ and was done.

 

[TakeTheBody]

We have our top guys contracted for this year and next year. I can't see us not going for it this year. And we are not that far off. And the league with CAP is very tight. Lets see what Dubie can do to improve the team in next month. I'd expect at minimum we get a new backup because if Freddy goes down near or in playoffs we can't be stuck with hutch. and we need to account for a couple more injuries on D as things get tougher now. So I think you will see 2 more defenders added while giving up wingers/prospects.

I hope you're right and thanks for the respectful reply.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Absolutely.

Yup

 

[Fatass]

I can't see how keeping Marleau would have helped. He wants to play everyday and get the iron man streak. That is his objective. He would have taken a spot on our 4th line LW so kids had no chance to make team and his CAP hit would have stopped us from signing Mitch.
and he can't do it every night. maybe at best he can play a game take a game or two off to rest up and give er another game. He would never have agreed which is why he was traded. and his wife and kids apparently did not like it here. Although I have serious suspicions all that seemed to occur in his 2nd year when father time passed him by.

I’m not suggesting Marleau would have helped on the ice. I’m saying top picks are necessary in keeping the window for winning open. Those top picks are the pipeline of cheap (ELCs) cap costs to support the core guys. The higher pick the more likely the prospect will be good enough to be at least a support player.

 

[Big Muddy]

We were in playoff position not too long ago so if we miss now, blaming Babcock just lets everyone off the hook.

I say no. This current group needs to either make the playoffs, or accept 100% of the blame for not getting there. And that's especially true if they keep taking days off every now and then.

Using Babcock is a poor excuse. St. Louis was dead and buried last year but came back to get the job done.
Don't we have the team of guys that can get the job done?
We had plenty of time after changing the coach.

Agreed. If we are a good team, we rise to the occasion. If we don't, excuses don't cut it.

 

[Big Muddy]

I’m not suggesting Marleau would have helped on the ice. I’m saying top picks are necessary in keeping the window for winning open. Those top picks are the pipeline of cheap (ELCs) cap costs to support the core guys. The higher pick the more likely the prospect will be good enough to be at least a support player.

We all like Kapanen. But, let's remember he was selected 22nd overall. Can't talk about picks in the bottom 1/3 rd of the 1st round as if they are throw aways.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We all like Kapanen. But, let's remember he was selected 22nd overall. Can't talk about picks in the bottom 1/3 rd of the 1st round as if they are throw aways.

At the same time, he is a better case scenario of what you usually get from those type of picks, and even in that scenario, him in a developed stage is way more valuable to the team. More than just Kapanen would have had to go to keep the 1st too. Not to mention having to play Marleau, who is a liability on the ice at this stage of his career.

 

[Big Muddy]

At the same time, he is a better case scenario of what you usually get from those type of picks, and even in that scenario, him in a developed stage is way more valuable to the team. More than just Kapanen would have had to go to keep the 1st too. Not to mention having to play Marleau, who is a liability on the ice at this stage of his career.

Not sure if I understand all of the points you are making, but that's OK.

Here's another example. If you look at our starters on the blueline next year, we will have players that were selected with the 17th, 29th and 34th picks. All late 1st round & early 2nd round picks don't become good NHLers, but the idea that they are throw-aways and have limited value I think is wrong.

If we keep trading those picks off, then all we have left is the trade route, and that's a pretty slippery slope imho.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

I stil think they can catch Boston

They are a 1 line team and have been for years

Yeah but their other 3 lines COMMIT to their system and it does them wonders...keep it tied until the Bergeron line breaks through...or Pasta breaks through (if they split them up again)...they get their identity and they play to it...so 1 line team or not...they are a scary team to run into in the playoffs

 

[67Leafs67]

I’m not suggesting Marleau would have helped on the ice. I’m saying top picks are necessary in keeping the window for winning open. Those top picks are the pipeline of cheap (ELCs) cap costs to support the core guys. The higher pick the more likely the prospect will be good enough to be at least a support player.

Yeah except the variance in the likelihood becomes increasingly small between picks as you get out of the top 10-15 in the draft. Obviously if Toronto tanks it this season and next (the pick is conditional), and somehow it ends up being a pick in the top 15 for Carolina, this looks a lot worse for the Leafs. However, I think Dubas was pretty safe gambling that this would be a pick closer to the 24-31 range (as it has been the past two seasons).

This off-season, Dubas successfully offloaded Marleau ($6.25M), Zaitsev ($4.5M), and Brown ($2.1M), and in total, traded away three 2020 draft picks (1st, 3rd, 7th) and acquired four (3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th). In terms of expected pick value, he traded away approximately 501, and gained approximately 420 (based on last year's standings)...the disparity in value of those picks, 81, is equivalent to about the 146th overall pick in the draft.

So, essentially this off-season, Dubas did the following:
In - Tyson Barrie ($2.75M), Alex Kerfoot ($3.5M), Cody Ceci ($4.5M), Aaron Luchuk (ECHL), Ben Harpur (AHL), David Clarkson (LTIR), Jordan Schmaltz (AHL)
Out - Nazem Kadri ($4.5M), Calle Rosen (AHL), Patrick Marleau ($6.25M), Connor Brown ($2.1M), Nikita Zaitsev ($4.5M), Michael Carcone (AHL), Garrett Sparks (AHL), Andreas Borgman (AHL), 146th overall pick.

So in essence, you lose two useful players (Kadri & Brown), and replace them with two useful players (Barrie & Kerfoot), while offloading two negative players (Marleau & Zaitsev), and replacing them with only one negative player (Ceci)...otherwise its just minor leaguers getting moved around. In total, this saved Toronto $6.6M in cap space, all for the price of a 146th overall pick.

That $6.6M is basically what allowed us to bring Johnsson & Kapanen back. So as important as draft picks, and that lottery ticket for new ELCs are...I don't think you can argue that Johnsson + Kapanen < 146th overall pick.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

I would want Boston so they can finally defeat them in the playoffs and shut up the Leafs haters.

'
If they ever knock the Bruins off I think they'd sweep the next series just off the adrenaline of finally beating the B's...confidence can do wonders for a team in the playoffs

 

[Community]

'
If they ever knock the Bruins off I think they'd sweep the next series just off the adrenaline of finally beating the B's...confidence can do wonders for a team in the playoffs

Fully expect whatever year the Leafs beat the Bruins to be similar to Vancouver vs Chicago.

Once Van finally won, thry made it to the SCF. Hopefully Toronto has better injury luck, but whenever they beat Boston they should be a strong contender. Boston is their current krypronite.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I can't see how keeping Marleau would have helped. He wants to play everyday and get the iron man streak. That is his objective. He would have taken a spot on our 4th line LW so kids had no chance to make team and his CAP hit would have stopped us from signing Mitch.
and he can't do it every night. maybe at best he can play a game take a game or two off to rest up and give er another game. He would never have agreed which is why he was traded. and his wife and kids apparently did not like it here. Although I have serious suspicions all that seemed to occur in his 2nd year when father time passed him by.

That's why Dubas signing Spezza is a lot better. He is the one who wanted to come home and play for the league minimum of $700,000 and didn't mind playing on the 4th line and it's only a 1 year contract. Plus it's obvious that Keefe trusts him and actually respects him. The first thing Babcock did was say to the media he didn't know what his role would be and made him a healthy scratch on opening night. With Marleau not once last season did he give Marleau and criticism when his game wasn't performing compared to his first year in Toronto.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So in essence, you lose two useful players (Kadri & Brown), and replace them with two useful players (Barrie & Kerfoot), while offloading two negative players (Marleau & Zaitsev), and replacing them with only one negative player (Ceci)...otherwise its just minor leaguers getting moved around. In total, this saved Toronto $6.6M in cap space, all for the price of a 146th overall pick.

That $6.6M is basically what allowed us to bring Johnsson & Kapanen back. So as important as draft picks, and that lottery ticket for new ELCs are...I don't think you can argue that Johnsson + Kapanen < 146th overall pick.

Last season I wouldn't have said Connor Brown was a useful player. He didn't come close to the 20 goals he had in 2017, although some of that was on Babcock for putting him on the 4th line.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

The games tend to tighten up and things get more defensive so Leafs are going to be in a battle down the stretch.

Leafs alkalies heel is their defensive play, which injuries are not helping.

Yes but im interested in how this possession game plays against those defenses if the boys commit to D...I feel like it has the potential to routinely unlock these tight games as guys start to run around tracking our guys...maybe im optimistic but I have a funny feeling they get Boston 1st round again Florida grabs a WC spot and Tampa goes lights out and wins the division (They then run into a Florida buzz saw, Bob finds his game and the lightning find themselves in a 1st round dogfight in Florida...)

 

[LeafsNation75]

'
If they ever knock the Bruins off I think they'd sweep the next series just off the adrenaline of finally beating the B's...confidence can do wonders for a team in the playoffs

That's sort of like the opposite of what happened in the 2001 playoffs. I remember in the regular season that year they lost all 5 games to Ottawa and they finished 7th in the Eastern Conference which meant they were going to play Ottawa who finished 2nd. Everyone was saying they would lose in 4 or 5 games max. Instead they go onto the sweep Ottawa 4-0.

 

[67Leafs67]

Last season I wouldn't have said Connor Brown was a useful player. He didn't come close to the 20 goals he had in 2017, although some of that was on Babcock for putting him on the 4th line.

Yeah I think he was a useful player with sub-optimal usage. Worth the $2.1M in my opinion, but not if he was going to be on a 4th line...but his lack of offensive aptitude made it difficult to justify a bigger role on our high flying squad.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Yeah I think he was a useful player with sub-optimal usage. Worth the $2.1M in my opinion, but not if he was going to be on a 4th line...but his lack of offensive aptitude made it difficult to justify a bigger role on our high flying squad.

I can't remember who was it was for but I read that at last years trade deadline he was almost traded to Edmonton. So the fact he was traded to Ottawa in the Zaitsev deal did not surprise me at all.

 

[67Leafs67]

I can't remember who was it was for but I read that at last years trade deadline he was almost traded to Edmonton. So the fact he was traded to Ottawa in the Zaitsev deal did not surprise me at all.

I think it was Matt Benning if memory serves.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I’m not suggesting Marleau would have helped on the ice. I’m saying top picks are necessary in keeping the window for winning open. Those top picks are the pipeline of cheap (ELCs) cap costs to support the core guys. The higher pick the more likely the prospect will be good enough to be at least a support player.

100% agree

 

[JT AM da real deal]

That's why Dubas signing Spezza is a lot better. He is the one who wanted to come home and play for the league minimum of $700,000 and didn't mind playing on the 4th line and it's only a 1 year contract. Plus it's obvious that Keefe trusts him and actually respects him. The first thing Babcock did was say to the media he didn't know what his role would be and made him a healthy scratch on opening night. With Marleau not once last season did he give Marleau and criticism when his game wasn't performing compared to his first year in Toronto.

Yeah bang on. That really ticked me off to see Spezza get screwed over like that. Just another reminder what a jerk Babs was. Anyone who was not Babs choice got the screw over. That is why it is a huge mistake to way overpay a coach. It makes zero sense when the coach makes mega $$$ and the GM makes 10X less. And we expect the GM to manage the coach who was hired by the BOD. It was such a ridiculous situation for everyone. Big mistake by the BOD which they had to rectify.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Yeah bang on. That really ticked me off to see Spezza get screwed over like that. Just another reminder what a jerk Babs was. Anyone who was not Babs choice got the screw over. That is why it is a huge mistake to way overpay a coach. It makes zero sense when the coach makes mega $$$ and the GM makes 10X less. And we expect the GM to manage the coach who was hired by the BOD. It was such a ridiculous situation for everyone. Big mistake by the BOD which they had to rectify.

I said this before and I will say it again. When I first heard Babcock question what role Spezza would play and everything he thought about his preseason debut, I said to myself where was this same talk about Marleau and his play from last season?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I said this before and I will say it again. When I first heard Babcock question what role Spezza would play and everything he thought about his preseason debut, I said to myself where was this same talk about Marleau and his play from last season?

The picture was so clear. It kinda shocks me when people point the finger at Lou. I mean he is partially responsible for signing him, I think, but I am still not convinced Lou even wanted Marleau. Another bad spot where GM is signing a coaches guy. Babs never even once ever acknowledged Marleau was playing poorly. Because I think the truth will come out eventually that he promised Marleau he would be in the line-up everyday due to iron man streak. It may have even been in the contract who knows. Anyways it does not matter we got rid of both of them and Z which I thought was quite an accomplishment.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The picture was so clear. It kinda shocks me when people point the finger at Lou. I mean he is partially responsible for signing him, I think, but I am still not convinced Lou even wanted Marleau. Another bad spot where GM is signing a coaches guy. Babs never even once ever acknowledged Marleau was playing poorly. Because I think the truth will come out eventually that he promised Marleau he would be in the line-up everyday due to iron man streak. It may have even been in the contract who knows. Anyways it does not matter we got rid of both of them and Z which I thought was quite an accomplishment.

I wouldn't be surprised if Babcock was the one pushing to sign Marleau and why Lou eventually gave him 3 years. Who knows if Babcock was even telling the truth about asking Marleau if he wanted a game off once the Leafs clinched their playoff spot last season, since he didn't care about not playing Mike Modano some nights in Detroit and he finished 1 game short of 1,500 for his career since he ended up playing 1,499 career games. Finally it was Babcock himself who said he didn't expect Marleau to play the 3rd and final year of his contract.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I wouldn't be surprised if Babcock was the one pushing to sign Marleau and why Lou eventually gave him 3 years. Who knows if Babcock was even telling the truth about asking Marleau if he wanted a game off once the Leafs clinched their playoff spot last season, since he didn't care about not playing Mike Modano some nights in Detroit and he finished 1 game short of 1,500 for his career since he ended up playing 1,499 career games. Finally it was Babcock himself who said he didn't expect Marleau to play the 3rd and final year of his contract.

The whole deal around Marleau was fishy. Lou and Dubie would be too classy to even discuss it. But I do not blame him for unloading Marleau I just wish it was not a 2020 1st rounder. But who knows maybe that was the only deal on the table. and why would anyone do us any favours.