Players that don't want a vaccine (Mod Warning post#30)

[Confused Turnip]

It's not a question it's a statement and it's not wrong because nobody knows for sure about any of this.

Here's a question. Can you tell me for sure their won't be side effects down the road in say 5 years?

Yes. The answer is a resounding yes, we can guarantee that. This is a great example of not knowing what questions to ask. That's an easy one.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

It's not a question it's a statement and it's not wrong because nobody knows for sure about any of this.

Here's a question. Can you tell me for sure their won't be side effects down the road in say 5 years?

You also don't know whether or not all of Creation won't cease to exist immediately after you finish reading this sentence.

That's why you should live your best life while you can, like me: spent arguing with randos on the forum of a defunct hockey prospect website.

 

[93gilmour93]

Yes. This is a great example of not knowing what questions to ask. That's an easy one.

What proof do you have of effects down the road and if you have it can I borrow your time machine to travel into the future

 

[tarheelhockey]

You don't need training or background to question what the future holds if you take it because we don't have that data to say one way or another

Absolutely, go right ahead and question the data.

But when someone gives you the cold hard facts answering your questions, "I reject this even though I don't have the background to refute it" is not a valid position. That's simply digging into a baseless, preconceived conclusion in order to avoid changing your mind.

Furthermore, perpetuating a pandemic in order to fully flesh out the possibility of side effects from the vaccine that would stop the pandemic is just downright crazytown. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that would create a reasonable suspicion that the vaccine would ever possibly harm/kill as many people as the virus, let alone the secondary damage caused by this situation.

It's exceedingly, transparently obvious that vaccination is the lowest-risk option on table. This is confirmed across the board by a century of epidemiological experience, as well as COVID-specific data generated over the past 6 months. At this point there is simply no reason to keep stalling beyond baseless, reflexive suspicion of medicine. And that is not a valid reason.

 

[sbjnyc]

Kaapo kakko has diabetes and nothing drastic happened to him. Developing pneumonia can be problematic for a lot of people and not that problematic for a lot of people. You can also get hit by a bus crossing the road. A large amount of people didn’t even know they had covid without a suprise test result. The constant worst case scenarios that are constantly spewed out are worn out.

He has celiac too. It's a bit surprising it didn't impact him as badly as it did Zibanejad.

 

[Confused Turnip]

What proof do you have of effects down the road and if you have it can I borrow your time machine to travel into the future

Or maybe we just know how the world works a little by now? Your system's response to a vaccine takes place over a finite period of time and then it's gone. There is no mechanism for it to do anything to you 5 years down the road. At all.

 

[Avaholic29]

So to extend your analogy, if someone made a belt which made you immune to one of your other rare events such as being hit by cars, you would argue against it because getting hit by cars is no big deal most of the time, and hardly ever happens, so nobody should make any effort to protect themselves from it? Perhaps Bill Gates put some microchips in the belt buckle? Will the belt even be in fashion next year?

the vaccine doesn’t grant immunity.. but nice analogy dude. The statistics show that healthy people have generally faired very well against the virus in comparison to those that haven’t. So by your own words, those that feel unsafe will be “immune” why the hell is anyone else’s business a concern of yours? Lol

 

[93gilmour93]

Absolutely, go right ahead and question the data.

But when someone gives you the cold hard facts answering your questions, "I reject this even though I don't have the background to refute it" is not a valid position. That's simply digging into a baseless, preconceived conclusion in order to avoid changing your mind.

Furthermore, perpetuating a pandemic in order to fully flesh out the possibility of side effects from the vaccine that would stop the pandemic is just downright crazytown. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that would create a reasonable suspicion that the vaccine would ever possibly harm/kill as many people as the virus, let alone the secondary damage caused by this situation.

It's exceedingly, transparently obvious that vaccination is the lowest-risk option on table. This is confirmed across the board by a century of epidemiological experience, as well as COVID-specific data generated over the past 6 months. At this point there is simply no reason to keep stalling beyond baseless, reflexive suspicion of medicine. And that is not a valid reason.

The point is we don’t even have the data yet to question or not till we let this play out. It’s not trying to compare the death counts but what’s the data of healthy young people/Nhl players who most likely wouldn’t barely ever get effected by COVID and just shake it off but get issues a few years down the road. It’s always for the most part effected the elderly or people with health issues. Not all cases but most just like like most people wouldn’t die from blood clots taking AZ but some did.

 

[Avaholic29]

He has celiac too. It's a bit surprising it didn't impact him as badly as it did Zibanejad.

I’m no expert but like all sicknesses this seems to impact people differently no matter what. I’ve also read articles on very old people who barely felt it and survived.

 

[93gilmour93]

Or maybe we just know how the world works a little by now? Your system's response to a vaccine takes place over a finite period of time and then it's gone. There is no mechanism for it to do anything to you 5 years down the road. At all.

But this vaccine is not like any other vaccine we’ve had before so if people want to let it play out more before getting it there’s nothing wrong with that and the nhl players should have that right

 

[tarheelhockey]

The point is we don’t even have the data yet to question or not till we let this play out. It’s not trying to compare the death counts but what’s the data of healthy young people/Nhl players who most likely wouldn’t barely ever get effected by COVID and just shake it off but get issues a few years down the road. It’s always for the most part effected the elderly or people with health issues. Not all cases but most just like like most people wouldn’t die from blood clots taking AZ but a few did.

6 months ago we didn't have data. At this point there is quite a lot of data piling up.

AZ very slightly moved the needle on deep-vein thrombosis, which is not a long term effect, and it got pulled immediately. They're watching the numbers like a hawk, and even the slightest suspicions get major headlines. Yet here we are, no side effect issues are cropping up.

We're rapidly approaching the point where the risk drops to zero for "mechanical" reasons. Vaccines don't continue to just sit in your bloodstream and monkey with your innards... they send the necessary signals to your immune system and then pass away like any other material inside of you. 6 months out, you're basically waiting for an all-clear signal that is never going to come because it's already a de facto reality. If you're talking about waiting years, that's basically the same thing as saying you just will not ever take it.

To be fair, I do understand that there's a very long turnaround for full FDA approval of new medicines and that the turnaround exists for a reason. If we were talking about rushing some blood-pressure pill to market for commercial reasons, I would be horrified. But this situation doesn't bear any resemblance to that. Vaccines are well understood, and there simply is no reason to believe that we're going to suddenly start seeing them do new things out of the blue.

 

[OppositeLocK]

But this vaccine is not like any other vaccine we’ve had before so if people want to let it play out more before getting it there’s nothing wrong with that and the nhl players should have that right

Just going to leave this here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/israel-pfizer-myocarditis-1.6049766

What's a little heart inflammation right?

 

[Confused Turnip]

But this vaccine is not like any other vaccine we’ve had before so if people want to let it play out more before getting it there’s nothing wrong with that and the nhl players should have that right

Every part of this is wrong. It's not unique in any relevant way, there is nothing to play out, and there is no right which prevents a social group from making participation in society conditional on getting vaccinated. They're free to set up camp in a sympathetic despotic country overseas if they don't like it.

 

[93gilmour93]

Every part of this is wrong. It's not unique in any relevant way, there is nothing to play out, and there is no right which prevents a social group from making participation in society conditional on getting vaccinated. They're free to set up camp in a sympathetic despotic country overseas if they don't like it.

Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t all vaccines contain a fragment of the virus they fight off but this one doesn’t?

 

[OppositeLocK]

Every part of this is wrong. It's not unique in any relevant way, there is nothing to play out, and there is no right which prevents a social group from making participation in society conditional on getting vaccinated. They're free to set up camp in a sympathetic despotic country overseas if they don't like it.

My body my choice, Mussolini.

 

[GreytWun]

What? That was a review of 2794 people who got the vaccine and then subsequently died. In not a single case were researches able find evidence linking their deaths to the vaccine.

There is no point with people like him. They only read what they want and not trust science or facts.

 

[Confused Turnip]

Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t all vaccines contain a fragment of the virus they fight off but this one doesn’t?

It's not a relevant difference. Keeping with the analogy this one has your body manufacture the fragment instead of containing it, and contains instructions and fuel for doing so. But those instructions and fuel are consumables and once they're gone they're gone and everything else proceeds pretty much as normal.

 

[93gilmour93]

It's not a relevant difference. Keeping with the analogy this one has your body manufacture the fragment instead of containing it, and contains instructions and fuel for doing so. But those instructions and fuel are consumables and once they're gone they're gone and everything else proceeds pretty much as normal.

But the yearly booster shots that have been talked about keep its back in your system for years. It won’t be a one and done two doses so maybe some of the players don’t like the idea of that either

 

[OppositeLocK]

Yeah I don't get the logic of forcing others to get the vaccine. If the vaccine is effective and safe then get it. That way it doesn't matter what other people get because you're protected.

Injecting anything into people by force is morally wrong.

 

[Confused Turnip]

My body my choice, Mussolini.

It's disrespectful to throw names like that around casually, and nobody's disagreeing with you. Your body, your choice. Nowhere in my post did I say it's not your choice.

Think of it like walking around covered in shit from head to toe all day. Your body, your choice to do so, nobody can stop you, but we sure as hell also won't let you do it in public or into stores. Choices have consequences, man up and accept them.

 

[Confused Turnip]

Yeah I don't get the logic of forcing others to get the vaccine. If the vaccine is effective and safe then get it. That way it doesn't matter what other people get because you're protected.

Injecting anything into people by force is morally wrong.

It's very simple, everyone who can get a vaccine and wishes to interact with random strangers needs to because there are people who can't get them. If you do not wish to have a vaccine, you are free to not participate in society. There is no force involved, it's your choice, you just live in a world where actions have consequences. In this case your action is to make yourself a danger to a segment of society, and so we are protecting them from you. Simple, no?

 

[93LEAFS]

The vaccines are safe and effective for the vast majority of people. COVID however, poses a significant threat even to young athletes. Take this 31 year old Olympic Gold Medallist, for example:

It affected one of the best pass-rushers in the NFL most of the season after he got it (Myles Garrett). And, in a league filled with freakishly athletic people he is probably in the 99th percentile of crazy athletes.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Yeah I don't get the logic of forcing others to get the vaccine. If the vaccine is effective and safe then get it. That way it doesn't matter what other people get because you're protected.

Injecting anything into people by force is morally wrong.

Who's forcing them to get vaccinated?

Players are not entitled to work for National Hockey League. Employers are within their right to require vaccination.

 

[93gilmour93]

It's very simple, everyone who can get a vaccine and wishes to interact with random strangers needs to because there are people who can't get them. If you do not wish to have a vaccine, you are free to not participate in society. There is no force involved, it's your choice, you just live in a world where actions have consequences. In this case your action is to make yourself a danger to a segment of society, and so we are protecting them from you. Simple, no?

Saying you don’t participate in society unless you do what I say and take the vaccine is forcing it. Lol. Who the hell is anybody to decide that. This is exactly the type of situation the NHLPA wil not allow to happen

 

[93gilmour93]

Who's forcing them to get vaccinated?

Players are not entitled to work for National Hockey League. Employers are within their right to require vaccination.

Where was that in the contracts and CBA signed?