Player Discussion: Martin Jones

[Pinkfloyd]

I agree, but it did work out for the Pens with MAF.

Since 2000, there have been 28 goalies drafted in the 1st round. Of those 28, I'd say six of them have worked out for the team making the pick. Cam Ward, Fleury, Schneider (turned into Horvat), Price, Bernier (two assets from Bernier trade turned into Marian Gaborik for them), and Vasilevskiy. There's still two that are to be determined with Samsonov in Washington and Oettinger in Dallas so six hits, two TBD's, and 20 busts. And even two of the hits are only good for what they returned rather than what they produced for their drafted team. It's a huge risk taking a goalie in the 1st round. Given how volatile the position is, it's hard to be certain that you're even getting a goalie that is going to be anything and if I'm picking one that high, I have to be absolutely convinced that he will be elite to make that pick. More often than not, you're just better off making that investment elsewhere because it's more predictable than what happens in net.

Agree, my point is that goalies can have a meltdown out of no where and tank your season just as easily as they can get hot and win you a cup. It's pretty random

It's like 98% random and a lot of it is right place at the right time. Most goalies are a product of the system that they're playing behind. Only truly elite goalies outperform that but you don't know you're getting that except for extremely rare cases until they're in their mid-20's.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

MAF was a major headcase and a big part of why Pittsburgh never won a single game past the second round between 2010 and 2015 despite having Crosby and Malkin in the height of their prime. Fleury was terrible in the in the playoffs over that time frame.

In 2012, Pittsburgh signed Tomas Vokoun as a platoon option who could take over for Fleury in the playoffs, because Fleury was such a mess. Vokoun only started 17 games to Fleury’s 31 in the 2013 regular season, but come playoff time? Fleury got 4 starts, went 2-2 with a 3.51 GAA and .883 SV%, and lost the net to Tomas Vokoun. By no coincidence, Tomas Vokoun took Pittsburgh to the Eastern Conference Finals; something Fleury never did between 2010 and 2015. And this Tomas Vokoun I’m talking about? He was 37 years old and retired immediately after that season ended.

In 2016, when Pittsburgh finally got over the hump, Jeff Zatkoff actually won more playoff games than Fleury did that year. Fleury and Murray were both injured early in the playoffs and when both came back, Pittsburgh used Matt Murray - a veteran of 13 NHL games - before they used Fleury. They went to Fleury for one game in the Tampa series when Murray struggled and he wasn’t very good so they never put him in again.

Pittsburgh’s two best playoff runs between 2010 and 2016 - 7 prime years of Fleury’s career - came when Fleury was replaced by a 37 year old who was about to retire, and a rookie with 13 games of NHL experience.

In 2017, Murray was set to start game 1, and got seriously injured in warm-ups. Fleury took over the net for 15 games and played incredible. If that were some decent backup and not Fleury, Pittsburgh almost certainly loses against Columbus or Washington in the first 2 rounds and I give him full marks for out-dueling Bobrovsky and Holtby in each of those rounds. But in reality, that one run came completely out of nowhere and he wasn’t even scheduled to be the starter that year. And as soon as Murray regained his health and returned to the crease, Fleury never started another game. Pittsburgh did just fine without him as Murray won the final 2 rounds.

When push finally came to shove, Pittsburgh paid Vegas with a 2nd round pick in order to take Fleury’s contract over Bryan Rust. That would be like the Sharks paying Seattle a 2nd round pick to take Martin Jones over Marcus Sorensen.

Now, consider the asset Pittsburgh paid for Fleury: The 1st overall pick in the 2003 draft - one of the greatest drafts ever. They would have been much better off if they had just drafted Eric Staal (the first skater picked), Ryan Suter (the first defenseman picked), or one of ~15 other elite skaters from one of the best drafts in NHL history. Then consider the cap space they spent on Fleury: $5M or more when the salary cap was much lower than it is now. When you look at all of that you just prove PF’s point. They spent valuable assets and cap space on a goaltender who did a lot of good for them but also just wasn’t reliable and cost them a lot. 2/3 of their Cups with Fleury came when the actual starter was a kid they drafted and developed.

C'mon man... That's some selective vision. I like how you completely ignore that he back stopped them to back to back finals appearances and won a cup in only his 3rd year in the league. He was probably even better in the year they lost. Say whatever you want about everything that happened after, every franchise in the league would love to have that cup. Who's to say any of those other guys you say they should have picked would have led to a cup?

Yup Pitt paid to have him moved late in his career and he took another franchise to the finals and nearly the 2nd round in the 2nd season while putting up great numbers in these last 2 regular season. I'm no MAF fan but he's been pretty great and worth that pick especially considering how many top picks turn out to suck ass. Going hind sight on drafts is almost almost disingenuous once you have a players whole career to look at.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Since 2000, there have been 28 goalies drafted in the 1st round. Of those 28, I'd say six of them have worked out for the team making the pick. Cam Ward, Fleury, Schneider (turned into Horvat), Price, Bernier (two assets from Bernier trade turned into Marian Gaborik for them), and Vasilevskiy. There's still two that are to be determined with Samsonov in Washington and Oettinger in Dallas so six hits, two TBD's, and 20 busts. And even two of the hits are only good for what they returned rather than what they produced for their drafted team. It's a huge risk taking a goalie in the 1st round. Given how volatile the position is, it's hard to be certain that you're even getting a goalie that is going to be anything and if I'm picking one that high, I have to be absolutely convinced that he will be elite to make that pick. More often than not, you're just better off making that investment elsewhere because it's more predictable than what happens in net.

Like I said, I agree. I wouldn't draft one that high ever. But for pitt it was the piece they needed and they got Crosby his first 2 finals appearances and his first cup. MAF was considered a sure thing in that draft and he won a cup so it turned out to be a good pick.

And, if Jones does backstop this team to a cup win it'll be hard to say it wasn't worth it to trade a 1st and what need up being a productive NHLer. But yeah, it's like playing lotto.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

C'mon man... That's some selective vision. I like how you completely ignore that he back stopped them to back to back finals appearances and won a cup in only his 3rd year in the league. He was probably even better in the year they lost. Say whatever you want about everything that happened after, every franchise in the league would love to have that cup. Who's to say any of those other guys you say they should have picked would have led to a cup?

Yup Pitt paid to have him moved late in his career and he took another franchise to the finals and nearly the 2nd round in the 2nd season while putting up great numbers in these last 2 regular season. I'm no MAF fan but he's been pretty great and worth that pick especially considering how many top picks turn out to suck ass. Going hind sight on drafts is almost almost disingenuous once you have a players whole career to look at.

What I’m saying is that MAF was a mixed bag who was great for them in 3 of the 4 Cup runs and a major problem in between them.

Hindsight isn’t disingenuous at all here when we’re talking about whether or not a guy worked out at first overall. That’s a conversation that is going to be all about hindsight. Pittsburgh went into arguably the best draft of all time with the first overall pick and got one of the weaker first overall picks in recent memory. They won multiple cups with the help of that pick but that pick also really hurt them in a lot of other seasons.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

What I’m saying is that MAF was a mixed bag who was great for them in 3 of the 4 Cup runs and a major problem in between them.

Hindsight isn’t disingenuous at all here when we’re talking about whether or not a guy worked out at first overall. That’s a conversation that is going to be all about hindsight. Pittsburgh went into arguably the best draft of all time with the first overall pick and got one of the weaker first overall picks in recent memory. They won multiple cups with the help of that pick but that pick also really hurt them in a lot of other seasons.

If a pick is instrumental in winning cups it's worth whatever the draft position was. McDavid was a great pick but he may never win a cup. Jumbo as well if I'm being fair. How many 1st round picks were instrumental in winning a cup? Steal and ? (serious question I don't know who else was drafted that year). Pitt drafted for need and at the time MAF was going top 3 no matter what. He was that highly regarded in his draft year. Not like he was a shot in the dark type of pick. They ended up being right. This is all pointless and it seems like you just want to disagree with me considering your book report in the previous post. I said that I agree that it's not the best idea to pick goalies that early but felt compelled to point out an instance where it worked. From Pitts perspective it did and it doesn't matter what happened in all those other years. They won a cup largely because of their use of that 1st round pick.

 

[OrrNumber4]

He stole the Sharks a game, and cost the Sharks at least three games. Unacceptable for a goaltender of his caliber and with his contract.

 

[Lebanezer]

He stole the Sharks a game, and cost the Sharks at least three games. Unacceptable for a goaltender of his caliber and with his contract.

Yup, he was just not good all year.

 

[hohosaregood]

Jones probably gets a couple months to show if he can rebound next year. A summer of rediscovering his game, if there is one to rediscover, and a month or two figuring out if the team needs to spend the assets or not to find another goalie. Hopefully, Bibeau/Korenar are good enough for us to use them while they're cheap.

 

[WSS11]

Jones probably gets a couple months to show if he can rebound next year. A summer of rediscovering his game, if there is one to rediscover, and a month or two figuring out if the team needs to spend the assets or not to find another goalie. Hopefully, Bibeau/Korenar are good enough for us to use them while they're cheap.

Korenar is small but I think he can become a great starter because of his agility. He really needs to fill out though

 

[one2gamble]

Korenar is small but I think he can become a great starter because of his agility. He really needs to fill out though

He's not growing anymore

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

He's not growing anymore

Eat more cheeseburgers?

 

[WSS11]

He's not growing anymore

He can put on some muscle. Just needs to put on 15-20lbs which isn’t too much to ask for

 

[one2gamble]

He can put on some muscle. Just needs to put on 15-20lbs which isn’t too much to ask for

Here's like 4 inches shorter than he needs to be

 

[Pinkfloyd]

He can put on some muscle. Just needs to put on 15-20lbs which isn’t too much to ask for

Weight on a goalie doesn't mean a whole lot. Guys that are small just need to be extremely athletic. I wouldn't bet on anyone the Sharks have becoming a starter. None of them seem to have that kind of talent and the Sharks simply don't develop goalies well anymore.

 

[WSS11]

Here's like 4 inches shorter than he needs to be

He’s 6’1..same height as Quick and Hasek and one inch shorter than Roy and Brodeur. Hell John Vanbiesbrouck dragged a mediocre panthers team past stacked Pens and Flyers teams to the cup finals and he was 5’8. He literally just needs to fill out a little bit. He’d be far and away the most agile goalie we’ve ever had. He’s actually bigger than Binnington when factoring in weight.

 

[WSS11]

Weight on a goalie doesn't mean a whole lot. Guys that are small just need to be extremely athletic. I wouldn't bet on anyone the Sharks have becoming a starter. None of them seem to have that kind of talent and the Sharks simply don't develop goalies well anymore.

Watching Bibeau, i’d agree. I think Korenar has the talent to be a very good starter if to your point he can be developed correctly

 

[Anomie2029]

Jones had an awful year, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was something external going on around him.

However, the systems in front of him did him zero favours. I've never seen a team give the other a free licence to hang in front of their goal like the sharks did.

 

[Bleedred]

He sucked. He was garbage all season. Not the worst goalie I watched this year, there were at least a half a dozen worse. Not quite as bad as his save percentage, but still very bad. A lower volume of shots and the fact that he faced a lot of breakaways (many he had no chance on and some that he did, and also a lot that I didn't count as stoppable, but I thought he could have done better on because he was beaten by the same move over and over again) probably takes his save percentage down to below .900%. If I didn't know any better, I probably would have said ''Yeah, his save percentage is probably .905%, maybe it's .902% or .901%''. He tied my stoppable goal count in the league for the season with Mikko Koskinen, but that was also a usage thing. The goalies that were worse than him didn't play as many games as him.

He also leads these playoffs in goals I counted stoppable (17), but that is also a usage thing, as he wasn't quite as bad as some of the goalies that went out in round one. Like Vasilevskiy. I actually counted a higher percentage on Bishop these playoffs, for what it's worth. Binnington may pass him with a bad SCF.

I think there's a reasonable chance he bounces back to an average level of goaltending next year and this was just a one-off really bad year for him, but the guy never has and never will be anything better than an average goalie. And a season of really amazing goaltending with LA where notable beer leaguer Ben Scrivens also posted similar numbers and one other really good season (15-16) does not change that, as the mediocre seasons and this really horrendous one will cancel that out.

 

[Bleedred]

He was actually worse in the St. Louis series than he was in the Vegas series and the numbers will back that up, because I believe he had a .905% (or thereabouts) after the Vegas series. I'm pretty sure he was at .910% for the playoffs coming into the WCF and he finished with an .898% over the entire playoffs, so he was probably something like .875%-.880% (or worse) during the St. Louis series, just using lazy fast math.

He was good against Colorado, I only counted one goal as stoppable over those 7 games, but I counted 8 against Vegas and 8 against St. Louis, in one fewer game played.

And one last thing, not Jones related, but indirectly Jones related. If Dell struggles in the preseason, you cut bait and waive him. More expensive goalies have been buried in the AHL for poor performance.

He sucked this year too. He's too small, he plays his angles poorly, he makes himself even smaller in net. He was horrific in his playoff relief appearances, which is why he never got a start, which I always agreed it was the right move to not give him the start in game 5 against Vegas or any game in the playoffs.

Decent chance he bounces back to something better next year, but I also think his first two years were a fluke, especially his first. He had an identical NHL save percentage to Andrew Hammond over his first 56 NHL games or whatever (Hammond only played 56 or so NHL games) and then plummeted. He's pretty much Hammond 2.0, only without the crazy 2015 Hamburglar run. And Hammond is now in the AHL and Dell will be soon enough. Maybe he's even Stalock 2.0 also. Dell also made his NHL debut at the same age Hammond made his.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

He was actually worse in the St. Louis series than he was in the Vegas series and the numbers will back that up, because I believe he had a .905% (or thereabouts) after the Vegas series. I'm pretty sure he was at .910% for the playoffs coming into the WCF and he finished with an .898% over the entire playoffs, so he was probably something like .875%-.880% (or worse) during the St. Louis series, just using lazy fast math.

He was good against Colorado, I only counted one goal as stoppable over those 7 games, but I counted 8 against Vegas and 8 against St. Louis, in one fewer game played.

And one last thing, not Jones related, but indirectly Jones related. If Dell struggles in the preseason, you cut bait and waive him. More expensive goalies have been buried in the AHL for poor performance.

He sucked this year too. He's too small, he plays his angles poorly, he makes himself even smaller in net. He was horrific in his playoff relief appearances, which is why he never got a start, which I always agreed it was the right move to not give him the start in game 5 against Vegas or any game in the playoffs.

Decent chance he bounces back to something better next year, but I also think his first two years were a fluke, especially his first. He had an identical NHL save percentage to Andrew Hammond over his first 56 NHL games or whatever (Hammond only played 56 or so NHL games) and then plummeted. He's pretty much Hammond 2.0, only without the crazy 2015 Hamburglar run. And Hammond is now in the AHL and Dell will be soon enough. Maybe he's even Stalock 2.0 also. Dell also made his NHL debut at the same age Hammond made his.

I don't know why we should keep Dell around anyway given his cap hit. Move him and try Korenar/Bibeau or even one of the newer guys we signed as FA's earlier this season.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I don't know why we should keep Dell around anyway given his cap hit. Move him and try Korenar/Bibeau or even one of the newer guys we signed as FA's earlier this season.

With regards to Dell, it depends on what their options are. I don't think they can find a place to take him on his own for a 7th or a nothing prospect. Buying him out won't save them anything substantial after you bring up one of those guys. He'll lower the value of whatever asset you tag with him to move him so unless that other asset is Braun or Dillon that you're probably looking to move anyway, it's probably better to just let his contract run its course and move on after that.

I just wouldn't get my hopes up on Bibeau or Korenar.

 

[STL Shark]

He’s 6’1..same height as Quick and Hasek and one inch shorter than Roy and Brodeur. Hell John Vanbiesbrouck dragged a mediocre panthers team past stacked Pens and Flyers teams to the cup finals and he was 5’8. He literally just needs to fill out a little bit. He’d be far and away the most agile goalie we’ve ever had. He’s actually bigger than Binnington when factoring in weight.

Citing a bunch of guys from the 90's in the modern NHL is kind of silly given the changes to the game since then. The modern NHL goalie needs to be tall and be a solid positional goalie as opposed to some ultra athletic specimen. Look at the Vezina finalists this year: Bishop (6'7), Vasilevskiy (6'4), and Lehner (6'4). Last year it was Rinne (6'5) Vasilevskiy (6'4) and Hellebyuck (6'4). Pretty easy to see the trend that small goalies don't play in this league at the highest level anymore.

 

[WSS11]

Citing a bunch of guys from the 90's in the modern NHL is kind of silly given the changes to the game since then. The modern NHL goalie needs to be tall and be a solid positional goalie as opposed to some ultra athletic specimen. Look at the Vezina finalists this year: Bishop (6'7), Vasilevskiy (6'4), and Lehner (6'4). Last year it was Rinne (6'5) Vasilevskiy (6'4) and Hellebyuck (6'4). Pretty easy to see the trend that small goalies don't play in this league at the highest level anymore.

Not a requirement though. Goalies can still be elite without being tall today. Grubauer, Fleury, Binnington, Gibson, Bobrovsky are all under 6’3. To me it’s more about the system the team plays (Lehner is a prime example) than the goalie’s height.

 

[Sharksrule04]

Not a requirement though. Goalies can still be elite without being tall today. Grubauer, Fleury, Binnington, Gibson, Bobrovsky are all under 6’3. To me it’s more about the system the team plays (Lehner is a prime example) than the goalie’s height.

Very true, I'd say Bob and Fleury are the 2 best goalies in the league when they're on. Height is solid for positional goalies but I'd take a Bob, Quick or Fleury at their prime. Great goalies do not need to be 6'5.

 

[Bleedred]

I don't know why we should keep Dell around anyway given his cap hit. Move him and try Korenar/Bibeau or even one of the newer guys we signed as FA's earlier this season.

I’m not sure there’s a market for a 30 year old backup goalie that just had a horrific season. I think someone might trade for him as insurance for the AHL. Like a team with questionable NHL goalies like the Devils. Maybe a team like that would take him to put in the AHL and maybe call up when injuries happen or if one of their options becomes unreliable and earns themself a demotion.