Plans, Trades, and Automobiles: Fixing the Winged Wheel II

[King Pavel]

"Very busy working the phones (for trades) but nothing imminent right now"

"Hopefully between now and next Wednesday we can get something done to help our team"

"We are looking to use our 15th pick tonight, unless some good players are clustered and a team wants to move up then we'll consider trading picks, but we're going in with the intention of drafting fifteenth"

All as closely paraphrased as possible from his interview on 105.1.

 

[Bench]

As if his answer would help regardless of what he says.

It would be a perfect excuse to bump the Cleary thread. That's always a cause for celebration.

 

[Shaman464]

Nyquist
Tatar
Jurco
Sheahan
Mantha

Smith
Ouellet
Sproul
Marchenko
Backman

And the list gets longer. Sorry we haven't had top-five picks for so long. I guess we've been too busy being good.

If one of those forwards and one of those defensemen in their prime replace Zetterberg/Datsyuk and Kronwall, I would be very happy. Tatar and Sheahan project to not be capable of that, Jurco still is a question mark, the only safe bet is Mantha, but that still is probably going to happen well after the current core are winding down their careers or have retired. As for the defensemen you posted exactly 0 that are projected to be a #1. There are a couple guys who are top 4 defensemen, and a couple who could peak as a #3 or #2 and PP specialist. As it stands today there no players that project as a top line center, or a #1 defenseman. Two things this team needs in the future, nor are any of the aforementioned players currently project to fill the top 6 winger or top 2 right handed d man the team needs next season to be relevant.

 

[FlashyG]

Someone please ask, point blank, how Dan Cleary could possibly be considered an NHL quality player at this point? Or, if you really want to be a dick about it, ask Holland how he could possibly think signing a player that is near-universally hated by the fan base could be a good idea?

At no point has anyone in management talked about him potentially playing in the NHL.

The only mention of him getting a contract was a 2 way deal where he'd be playing in Grand Rapids.

Still probably too generous to him, but not pitchfork worthy.

 

[Bench]

"Very busy working the phones (for trades) but nothing imminent right now"

"Hopefully between now and next Wednesday we can get something done to help our team"

"We are looking to use our 15th pick tonight, unless some good players are clustered and a team wants to move up then we'll consider trading picks, but we're going in with the intention of drafting fifteenth"

All as closely paraphrased as possible from his interview on 105.1.

Translation:
Wings are going to pick a good player they like at 15. And then strike out on some trades all week and go bargain hunting on July 1st and rely on the youth movement to actually make the improvements the team needs.

Sound about right?

 

[FlashyG]

If one of those forwards and one of those defensemen in their prime replace Zetterberg/Datsyuk and Kronwall, I would be very happy. Tatar and Sheahan project to not be capable of that, Jurco still is a question mark, the only safe bet is Mantha, but that still is probably going to happen well after the current core are winding down their careers or have retired. As for the defensemen you posted exactly 0 that are projected to be a #1. There are a couple guys who are top 4 defensemen, and a couple who could peak as a #3 or #2 and PP specialist. As it stands today there no players that project as a top line center, or a #1 defenseman. Two things this team needs in the future, nor are any of the aforementioned players currently project to fill the top 6 winger or top 2 right handed d man the team needs next season to be relevant.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk didn't project to be first line forwards either, and Lidstrom wasn't projected to be a #1 defenceman.

Every one of those players has a tremendous amount of potential, when did Wings fans become so pessimistic?

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Translation:
Wings are going to pick a good player they like at 15. And then strike out on some trades all week and go bargain hunting on July 1st and rely on the youth movement to actually make the improvements the team needs.

Sound about right?

Yup this happens, Pretty much every season.

 

[King Pavel]

Translation:
Wings are going to pick a good player they like at 15. And then strike out on some trades all week and go bargain hunting on July 1st and rely on the youth movement to actually make the improvements the team needs.

Sound about right?

This is so incredibly accurate that it hurts.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Translation:
Wings are going to pick a good player they like at 15. And then strike out on some trades all week and go bargain hunting on July 1st and rely on the youth movement to actually make the improvements the team needs.

Sound about right?

i could 100% support youth movement so long as we dont do it half arsed and sign other teams trash just to look like we have an interest in making the wings better

either address the team by making a good trade(and again the kesler trade proves NO TEAM, I say again to those who dont get it NO TEAM) will ever trade an "arm and a leg"

we can improve lomg term without it hurting us long term

the only thing that hurts teams long term is trading good prospects or good picks(top 3 rds) for aging UFA's you use on the fourth line

 

[Claypool]

Zetterberg and Datsyuk didn't project to be first line forwards either, and Lidstrom wasn't projected to be a #1 defenceman.

Every one of those players has a tremendous amount of potential, when did Wings fans become so pessimistic?

What? You didn't think Datsyuk and Zetterberg would develop into franchise players during their rookie years?

 

[Shaman464]

Zetterberg and Datsyuk didn't project to be first line forwards either, and Lidstrom wasn't projected to be a #1 defenceman.

Every one of those players has a tremendous amount of potential, when did Wings fans become so pessimistic?

You mention three players out of over 100 players the Wings have drafted in the same period that never made it to the NHL or never made an impact at the NHL level. Zetterberg did project to be a first line forward pretty quickly after his draft, by the time he was in his second year in the SEL a lot of scouts were kicking themselves for undervaluing him based on his frame instead of his skill set. Datsyuk was again not as big a surprise as people think, he was a late bloomer, but had he not been drafted his first year he would have been drafted in the first round his second year. As for Lidstrom, if you think any of the defensemen mention are going to be that good, I'd love to put some money on that.

TL: DR: Holland either needs to commit to being a contender and use the assets he has to acquire the talent they need to get to that level, or they need to commit to a rebuild. Using plugs and hoping that somehow the next Datsyuk or Lidstrom falls in our laps won't cut it.

 

[Bench]

Zetterberg and Datsyuk didn't project to be first line forwards either, and Lidstrom wasn't projected to be a #1 defenceman.

Every one of those players has a tremendous amount of potential, when did Wings fans become so pessimistic?

And demanding.

Name a team in the league that replaced not one, but TWO generational talents like Zetterberg and Datsyuk seamlessly. I'll go ahead and wait. Hint: not one of the current top contenders have done it. Or one of the last 5 Cup winners.

The only team you can name is, in fact, Detroit when they did it moving from Yzerman/Fedorov to Z/D.

It's basically demanding a nearly impossible task. The Wings are going to be a committee team now built around depth at all positions. There's going to be strong years and lean years, unless you're getting a series of top 5 picks. Even then... Oilers.

 

[Shaman464]

And demanding.

Name a team in the league that replaced not one, but TWO generational talents like Zetterberg and Datsyuk seamlessly. I'll go ahead and wait. Hint: not one of the current top contenders have done it. Or one of the last 5 Cup winners.

The only team you can name is, in fact, Detroit when they did it moving from Yzerman/Fedorov to Z/D.

It's basically demanding a nearly impossible task. The Wings are going to be a committee team now built around depth at all positions. There's going to be strong years and lean years, unless you're getting a series of top 5 picks. Even then... Oilers.

Calling Datsyuk and Zetterberg generational talents is going way too far.

 

[Bench]

Calling Datsyuk and Zetterberg generational talents is going way too far.

Well, we certainly have a significant difference of opinion on that point.

 

[Shaman464]

Well, we certainly have a significant difference of opinion on that point.

Yes, we do.

Generational Talents: Howe, Yzerman, Sawchuk, Lidstrom, Gretzky, Orr, Hasek.

No where in those names could you add Datsyuk or Zetterberg without being laughed at.

 

[Ricelund]

Calling Datsyuk and Zetterberg generational talents is going way too far.

Why? They're the best two-way centers of their generation.

 

[SirloinUB]

Calling Datsyuk and Zetterberg generational talents is going way too far.

Semantics. Whether you want to call them "generational talents" or not is irrelevant. Point is replacing two guys that have been top 10-15 players in the entire league for the better part of a decade won't be anything close to easy.

 

[Shaman464]

Why? They're the best two-way centers of their generation.

And Maltby was the biggest pest of his generation. That doesn't make him a generational talent. A generational talent is someone who does everything in the game at an elite level, and for a lot of years. Think 1000 points for a forward as the cut off for even being in the conversation (since the 80's anyway).

 

[FlashyG]

You mention three players out of over 100 players the Wings have drafted in the same period that never made it to the NHL or never made an impact at the NHL level. Zetterberg did project to be a first line forward pretty quickly after his draft, by the time he was in his second year in the SEL a lot of scouts were kicking themselves for undervaluing him based on his frame instead of his skill set. Datsyuk was again not as big a surprise as people think, he was a late bloomer, but had he not been drafted his first year he would have been drafted in the first round his second year. As for Lidstrom, if you think any of the defensemen mention are going to be that good, I'd love to put some money on that

Datsyuk was passed over not once but twice completely by the NHL draft. It was his 3rd time through when the Wings took him. He was a complete nobody coming into his first camp and even then despite showing some unbelievable skills was considered a long shot to be an impact player because of his size.

Are you so pessimistic that the only way you can be happy is if ALL of our draft picks make the NHL?

Is the measurement of success of a draft pick whether or not he'll be better than Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Lidstrom? if so you're not going to be happy much if ever.

The point is our prospect pool is deeper right now than it has ever been. If there is one thing about the Wings that should inspire optimism it should be over them.

 

[Bench]

Semantics. Whether you want to call them "generational talents" or not is irrelevant. Point is replacing to guys that have been top 10-15 players in the entire league for the better part of a decade won't be anything close to easy.

It's so hard to do, the entire league expected the Wings collapse to happen years ago. When they lucked, via great educated guesses, into two late round gems like Datsyuk and Zetterberg the entire rest of the league collectively sighed and went, "ARE YOU KIDDING!?"

 

[PullHard]

If you're not happy with the prospect pool now, I'm not sure when you ever will be. The AHL team is one season removed from being champions, and that team didn't have Mantha + several of our European prospects on it.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Calling Datsyuk and Zetterberg generational talents is going way too far.

Umm... no?

Zetterberg isn't one, because he just does everything really well and picks his game up in crunch time. He's just an excellent player, but so are guys like Patrice Bergeron and Anze Kopitar. They're not generational talents, just stars.

Datsyuk, though, is definitely one. He does things that no other player can and few can even think of doing. He's way up there in terms of Russians in the NHL all-time. He was winning Selkes as a PPG player for several years in a row.

 

[Shaman464]

Datsyuk was passed over not once but twice completely by the NHL draft. It was his 3rd time through when the Wings took him. He was a complete nobody coming into his first camp and even then despite showing some unbelievable skills was considered a long shot to be an impact player because of his size.

Are you so pessimistic that the only way you can be happy is if ALL of our draft picks make the NHL?

Is the measurement of success of a draft pick whether or not he'll be better than Datsyuk, Zetterberg or Lidstrom? if so you're not going to be happy much if ever.

The point is our prospect pool is deeper right now than it has ever been. If there is one thing about the Wings that should inspire optimism it should be over them.

By the time most of them make the NHL as regular players it is likely that Zetterberg and Datsyuk will be declining or retiring. They are great if you are okay with them as a transitional plan, not as a realistic strategy to contend for a cup in the near future. If this were 5 years ago, with Z and D getting their big contracts, and there was an anchor on defense that could help with the growing pains, I would be elated. Right now the team has regressed noticeably, and there is no room for error anymore. Remember, had everything not gone perfectly down the stretch the Wings wouldn't have even gotten the chance to get embarrassed by Boston.

 

[Shaman464]

Umm... no?

Zetterberg isn't one, because he just does everything really well and picks his game up in crunch time. He's just an excellent player, but so are guys like Patrice Bergeron and Anze Kopitar. They're not generational talents, just stars.

Datsyuk, though, is definitely one. He does things that no other player can and few can even think of doing. He's way up there in terms of Russians in the NHL all-time. He was winning Selkes as a PPG player for several years in a row.

Datsyuk isn't even the best Russian of his generation. Ovechkin has more goals, and points in 150 less games. I would even say one could argue he's not even top 3 Russians on the Red Wings in their history.

 

[The Zermanator]

Yes, we do.

Generational Talents: Howe, Yzerman, Sawchuk, Lidstrom, Gretzky, Orr, Hasek.

No where in those names could you add Datsyuk or Zetterberg without being laughed at.

You don't consider Crosby a generational talent? Lindros? LaFleur? Richard? Roy? Brodeur? I could go on.

You're being way too stingy with the generational talent label. D and Z are definitely generational talents, especially Datsyuk. Not often do you see a player who can master both ends of the ice like he has.