GWT: PL Matchweek (mostly) 35

[Evilo]

Lol, Pogba not a leader... Guy should at least try to know about him before talking about him.
I see the standard of pundits in England is no better than the Dugarrys and Leboeufs in France.

 

[YNWA14]

Well, I believe they're saying that he doesn't lead (or isn't) by example. They're not wrong. Anyone can talk a big game or say a rousing speech but if they aren't the ones out there giving 100% on the day those words lose a lot of value.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Lol, Pogba not a leader... Guy should at least try to know about him before talking about him.
I see the standard of pundits in England is no better than the Dugarrys and Leboeufs in France.

I'm out of the house and not gonna watch the video on data, but I think it's fair to say (and I'm willing to assume this is NOT what Keane is saying) that Pogba has absolutely been a leader for the national team and has not been one for United.

 

[Evilo]

Then maybe the problem is with United's toxic environment.
3 different coaches (let's wait for OGS). Millions spent. Awful results.
Sure, their choices for coaches was just about as poor as it could be. And their money wasn't wisely spent. But still, when you hear those "pundits", you have to wonder why anyone would want to play on this team.
You can be on EPL's starting XI, score 13 goals and 9 assists from midfield, you'll get a celebrated United thug tell you you're not good enough/don't show heart/call you a liar, etc... because they want to pimp their own horn.

That's what Dugarry does all the time. I'm sure young generations who listen to Dugarry think he's a legend. Played for big clubs, WC champ, Zidane buddy. But some of us are old enough to remember how awful he was.
So when he says like he did recently that a guy like Mitroglou has zero talent and shouldn't be a pro player, some dig out the stats for OM.
Mitroglou : 0.32 goal per game (full career 0.47).
Dugarry : 0.19 (full career 0.18)

 

[Live in the Now]

If Nuno Santo can get Wolves playing like that in less time than van Gaal at Utd I can see why they didn't want to take it any further.

That's who they should have hired btw.

 

[hatterson]

That's who they should have hired btw.

I would have liked Blanc personally.

 

[S E P H]

Van Gaal is a hard character to like, but he's a masterful tactician. It just takes a while to buy into his game plan, but unlike most coaches, he has a plan and it usually suits the strength of his players best, while also giving the youth a fair shot. He analyzes everything to a T. I think in terms of tactics he rivals Cruijff and Michels as the greatest Dutch coach of all time. He needs time, though. He's not the instant success maker.

I think United got rid him way too easily. He took over when United were in a massive transition period. They finished 7th before he took over; the worst finish in 24 years. Had the guts to get rid of dead weight, such as Hernandez, Welbeck and got rid of van Persie just when he began to falter. Did buy Di Maria, but saw it didn't work out and got rid of him within a year. Most coaches would try to stretch that period for as long as they can and find excuses, trying to save face. Gave Rashford a chance to proof himself.

The other players he brought in:

• Anthony Martial for 50M - B
  A bit overpriced and the price has become even higher with bonuses. Shows flashes of brilliance at times, just not consistent.
• Memphis Depay for 34M - B
  Was a stud for PSV and was among the most sought after youngsters out there. Depay just didn't grow up and still hasn't, to be honest. Hard to blame van Gaal here.
• Daley Blind for 17M - A
  Cheap price. Blind was always solid, though did not always play at his primary position. Has blossomed into a stellar CB since his department.
  
• Luke Shaw for 34M - A
  Just unlucky with injuries. Career took a hit then, but is still a very good LB.
• Ander Herrera for 36M - D
  Overpriced. I think United need better if they want to finish higher than 6th.
• Morgan Schneiderlin for 34M - D
  Never quite got that one.
• Marcus Rojo for 20M - C
  Depth defender; a little overpriced for his role, but just played a WC final.
• Matteo Darmian for 18M - D
  Poor buy.
• Bastian Schweinsteiger for 9M - C
  Bastian was still a serviceable player for Bayern before he arrived in Manchester. Seemed like a good veteran presence to have at the time, but he didn't do anything of significance and was let go right after Loui van Gaal left.

Not the greatest track record. Van Gaal had bad luck with Depay and Shaw, and had some misjudgements with others, though nothing Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham didn't experience. Van Gaal is more to blame for not coming up with a strong CB and CAM, though his window wasn't very big. Players also adore him or hate him. Not everyone can cope with him and I think most didn't at United. When you compare this with Mourinho's spell, it's worlds better with Mourinho even spending about 117M more. Though in his defense; Pogba, while overpriced, was exactly what they needed, I thought at the time.

Pogba for 105M (B), Lukaku 85 (D), Fred 59 (E), Matic 45 (E), Mkhitaryan 42 (E), Bailly 38 (C), Lindelöf 35 (C), Alexis 34 (D), Dalot 22 (C), Grant 2 (C).

You're being a bit too generous at some rankings here...

Martial at some points of the season was an "F" but more due to never getting to play than him lacking talent. You're right that he was a solid buy. Depay is a freakin' "F" and will always remain an "F" until he shows he can play for a big team. Blind is a "C", he's a one dozen type of player you can find in almost every league. Shaw wouldn't be an "A" because his injury history is real, he would be a "B-" to "B" since he has been able to actual play this season consistently. Schneiderlin is a "D-". Schweinsteiger was already far passed his prime and why Bayern allowed him to walk, another "D-" for me.

Everything else, hard to argue.

 

[Live in the Now]

I would have liked Blanc personally.

Either/or. I think Nuno's record with some extremely average players speaks for itself though. One of our castoffs who was nowhere near good enough to play in the top flight becoming their captain and a very good player is a reflection of very great coaching.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Van Gaal is a hard character to like, but he's a masterful tactician. It just takes a while to buy into his game plan, but unlike most coaches, he has a plan and it usually suits the strength of his players best, while also giving the youth a fair shot. He analyzes everything to a T. I think in terms of tactics he rivals Cruijff and Michels as the greatest Dutch coach of all time. He needs time, though. He's not the instant success maker.

I think United got rid him way too easily. He took over when United were in a massive transition period. They finished 7th before he took over; the worst finish in 24 years. Had the guts to get rid of dead weight, such as Hernandez, Welbeck and got rid of van Persie just when he began to falter. Did buy Di Maria, but saw it didn't work out and got rid of him within a year. Most coaches would try to stretch that period for as long as they can and find excuses, trying to save face. Gave Rashford a chance to proof himself.

The other players he brought in:

• Anthony Martial for 50M - B
  A bit overpriced and the price has become even higher with bonuses. Shows flashes of brilliance at times, just not consistent.
• Memphis Depay for 34M - B
  Was a stud for PSV and was among the most sought after youngsters out there. Depay just didn't grow up and still hasn't, to be honest. Hard to blame van Gaal here.
• Daley Blind for 17M - A
  Cheap price. Blind was always solid, though did not always play at his primary position. Has blossomed into a stellar CB since his department.
  
• Luke Shaw for 34M - A
  Just unlucky with injuries. Career took a hit then, but is still a very good LB.
• Ander Herrera for 36M - D
  Overpriced. I think United need better if they want to finish higher than 6th.
• Morgan Schneiderlin for 34M - D
  Never quite got that one.
• Marcus Rojo for 20M - C
  Depth defender; a little overpriced for his role, but just played a WC final.
• Matteo Darmian for 18M - D
  Poor buy.
• Bastian Schweinsteiger for 9M - C
  Bastian was still a serviceable player for Bayern before he arrived in Manchester. Seemed like a good veteran presence to have at the time, but he didn't do anything of significance and was let go right after Loui van Gaal left.

Not the greatest track record. Van Gaal had bad luck with Depay and Shaw, and had some misjudgements with others, though nothing Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham didn't experience. Van Gaal is more to blame for not coming up with a strong CB and CAM, though his window wasn't very big. Players also adore him or hate him. Not everyone can cope with him and I think most didn't at United. When you compare this with Mourinho's spell, it's worlds better with Mourinho even spending about 117M more. Though in his defense; Pogba, while overpriced, was exactly what they needed, I thought at the time.

Pogba for 105M (B), Lukaku 85 (D), Fred 59 (E), Matic 45 (E), Mkhitaryan 42 (E), Bailly 38 (C), Lindelöf 35 (C), Alexis 34 (D), Dalot 22 (C), Grant 2 (C).

Yeah I’d agree with basically all of this. LVG definitely isn’t the most likeable character but he’s definitely a brilliant footballing mind and while I think with more time he would’ve been successful as a manager at Utd I don’t think they fired him at a bad time either.

Like I said, I think he did a really good job of figuring out who was dead weight and getting rid of players that weren’t good enough. I really think that if Utd had a competent board and scouts that a good squad would’ve been built from what he left.

But obviously that isn’t the case and the shit show seems to continue on.

 

[Evilo]

Depay a B? He got sold for a loss and sucked with United. How can that be a B?
Blind was no more than a depth player for United. A?
Herrera was a much better purchase. At least B for me.
Schweini was every bit as bad the signing as everyone thought he would be. F.

 

[YNWA14]

Then maybe the problem is with United's toxic environment.
3 different coaches (let's wait for OGS). Millions spent. Awful results.
Sure, their choices for coaches was just about as poor as it could be. And their money wasn't wisely spent. But still, when you hear those "pundits", you have to wonder why anyone would want to play on this team.
You can be on EPL's starting XI, score 13 goals and 9 assists from midfield, you'll get a celebrated United thug tell you you're not good enough/don't show heart/call you a liar, etc... because they want to pimp their own horn.

That's what Dugarry does all the time. I'm sure young generations who listen to Dugarry think he's a legend. Played for big clubs, WC champ, Zidane buddy. But some of us are old enough to remember how awful he was.
So when he says like he did recently that a guy like Mitroglou has zero talent and shouldn't be a pro player, some dig out the stats for OM.
Mitroglou : 0.32 goal per game (full career 0.47).
Dugarry : 0.19 (full career 0.18)

When did he say he's not good enough? Pretty much everyone has always said he's extremely talented. His inconsistency and lack of effort on the field are what is being criticized. Some people think he sulks, some think its his agent in his ear, etc. but it's pretty concerning if your form goes to **** just because you want to move away, or things aren't going your way. They're talking about leading by example and you can say Keane was a thug but he didn't take games off to sulk or just walk around on the field while the team was being overran. Again, part of being a leader is inspiring on the field not just talking about it -- you can talk about United being a toxic environment but he chose to go there and he has to take responsibility (also part of being a leader) for this team. Otherwise he's just a mercenary, which is fine, but from what I've seen most mercenaries don't typically reach the heights their talents could take them to.

 

[Evilo]

You think United's season went Pogba's way?
Yet he's in the best XI and has 13+9 to show for it.
Maybe some people need to use glasses then? Pogba does lead by example. A lot I'd say given the absolute suckiness of the rest of the team (save some Rashford moments, which were mostly after a Pogba pass). He's there and he produces. Even when his previous coach was sending him under the bus, he answered on the pitch.
If that's not leading by example...

Pogba moving back to United was stupid. I said it at the time and it's even more obvious today. Don't think that makes him a mercenary though since he wanted to prove his worth to United.

 

[Il Mediano]

I'm so close to going on a huge Pogba rant, but I'll save you all the time.

This is becoming beyond nonsensical. I hope he leaves.

 

[les Habs]

@Ajacied that Herrera rating/take is WAY off the mark. Nothing about is right.

 

[Panteras]

Pogba can be both a leader and a superstar, but the key word here is inconsistency. Both sides of the argument have valid points. Sometimes he's both, sometimes he isn't.

The truth is this United team does not have a true leader on the field.

 

[Havre]

I am humble enough to know I don´t know how a Generation Z football player might look at Pogba, but for those of us that are slightly older he is in my opinion not a leader in any sense of the word. To me he is the opposite of a leader and seems to play his best football when he is not asked to be one either (Juventus and France).

 

[Evilo]

I am humble enough to know I don´t know how a Generation Z football player might look at Pogba, but for those of us that are slightly older he is in my opinion not a leader in any sense of the word. To me he is the opposite of a leader and seems to play his best football when he is not asked to be one either (Juventus and France).

You're wrong.
When you have time, watch this.

 

[bluesfan94]

You're wrong.
When you have time, watch this.

If we’re only using international football, you’ll be the first to admit Depay is a consistent world beater, right?

 

[Evilo]

I know you're trying to hang on a rope, but frankly, it's beyond ridiculous.
Pogba has a long history with France, is a true leader AND he produces.
The comparison with Depay is frankly so far fetched you can't reach those heights.

Depay has a whopping 13 career NT goals (2 pens). World beater????

EDIT : And Pogba at Juve? And Pogba THIS year with United (13+9, EPL XI)? To compare with Depay, REALLY?

 

[Havre]

I´m perfectly fine being wrong if that is the case.

I usually don´t find Keane that interesting as a pundit. Being angry and disappointed with everything all the time gets a bit old after awhile, but his look after that last Pogba interview is about the same I always get listening to him.

Maybe he is different speaking French with his teammates? Could very well be. Could also be he is more of a proper leader in the dressing room than what he is on the pitch and in post game interviews (which is what I know about Pogba).

He doesn´t have to be a leader though - to be an excellent player. At least not off the pitch. Modric was not a leader in the old school Tony Adams kind of way playing for Spurs, but he was the kind of leader I wish Pogba had been for Utd (if I was supporting Utd). Never shying away from responsibility on the pitch. Never a split second any sort of body language signalling laziness or disappointment with team mates etc. If you did a mistake you could feel Modric making that extra effort to try to rectify that mistake. Dier is similar in that respect (as an example of a leader - Dier not being nearly the same quality as Pogba or Modric of course). I don´t get any of that from Pogba playing for Utd. Maybe a bit more for France.

 

[Venkman]

Depay a B? He got sold for a loss and sucked with United. How can that be a B?
Blind was no more than a depth player for United. A?
Herrera was a much better purchase. At least B for me.
Schweini was every bit as bad the signing as everyone thought he would be. F.

Blind was only a depth player in Mourinho's 2nd season*.

1st season: 29 starts (3rd most). Mostly DM + some LB.
2nd: 55 starts (most). CB
3rd: 35 starts (joint 7th). Mix of LB + CB.
4th: 14 starts*. Mix of all.

The other players he brought in:

• Anthony Martial for 50M - B
  A bit overpriced and the price has become even higher with bonuses. Shows flashes of brilliance at times, just not consistent.
• Memphis Depay for 34M - B
  Was a stud for PSV and was among the most sought after youngsters out there. Depay just didn't grow up and still hasn't, to be honest. Hard to blame van Gaal here.
• Daley Blind for 17M - A
  Cheap price. Blind was always solid, though did not always play at his primary position. Has blossomed into a stellar CB since his department.
  
• Luke Shaw for 34M - A
  Just unlucky with injuries. Career took a hit then, but is still a very good LB.
• Ander Herrera for 36M - D
  Overpriced. I think United need better if they want to finish higher than 6th.
• Morgan Schneiderlin for 34M - D
  Never quite got that one.
• Marcus Rojo for 20M - C
  Depth defender; a little overpriced for his role, but just played a WC final.
• Matteo Darmian for 18M - D
  Poor buy.

Bastian Schweinsteiger for 9M - C
Bastian was still a serviceable player for Bayern before he arrived in Manchester. Seemed like a good veteran presence to have at the time, but he didn't do anything of significance and was let go right after Loui van Gaal left.

B or C would be more accurate for Blind at United though. Herrera probably a B. Rojo and Schwein too high as well.

 

[Evilo]

Fair enough.
If you get the chance to see the 2 hour film though, do it. Lloris is also someone very soft spoken, he almost didn't talk in any lockeroom moment, but boy could you hear him at halftime of the final.

 

[Panteras]

there's a video of him giving a talk at the WC and all the sudden dude's John Tortorella and Roy Kean mixed into one lol

 

[bluesfan94]

And Pogba at Juve? And Pogba THIS year with United (13+9, EPL XI)? To compare with Depay, REALLY?

We’re not talking about Pogba’s ability, we’re talking about his leadership. You’re postulating that he’s a leader with ManU because he gave a locker room speech with the French team.

That’s silly.

From all accounts, Depay has been consistently fantastic with the Dutch team over the last year or so. That doesn’t make him so on his club team

 

[YNWA14]

We’re not talking about Pogba’s ability, we’re talking about his leadership. You’re postulating that he’s a leader with ManU because he gave a locker room speech with the French team.

That’s silly.

From all accounts, Depay has been consistently fantastic with the Dutch team over the last year or so. That doesn’t make him so on his club team

TBF Memphis has a pretty excellent record with Lyon as well, all things considered. That team in general just seems toxic...or maybe that's an excuse that doesn't apply to Memphis IDK.

Just to be clear...across Europe and L1 he's got 35 goals and 35 assists for Lyon (not including penalties won) in 79 starts. This season his production is a bit lower than his rate was going, but he's top 5 in Europe for chance creation despite the team state and his off field issues. For the Netherlands he's been an absolute beast. I think whatever team gets him this summer is going to be pretty happy, especially since he is just coming into his prime.